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Mo'ne in Chevrolet Commercial

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I like the fact that it addressed, and laughed off, using 'throw like a girl' as a pejorative. As to the girls vs. guys thing, Geno once addressed it by noting that if the UCWBB team played the UCMBB team the score would be whatever the guys wanted it to be. It is what it is.

Slightly off topic but, I think people make a mistake by comparing the girls to the guys. UConn women's basketball has reached an unparalleled level of excellence in their sport. It really doesn't matter to me how they'd be playing football, baseball, softball or Nascar. People should celebrate what they are and not worry about what they aren't.
 
j66kicker said:
You can blame Terry Bradshaw for that one - his comment when the NFL initiated the "in the grasp" rule.
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Terry doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. I'm not sure what that's saying seeing as the phrase actually caught on...
 
intlzncster said:
Terry doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. I'm not sure what that's saying seeing as the phrase actually caught on...
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He IS a dufus, but apparently not the only one :mad:
 
CL82 said:
I like the fact that it addressed, and laughed off, using 'throw like a girl' as a pejorative. As to the girls vs. guys thing, Geno once addressed it by noting that if the UCWBB team played the UCMBB team the score would be whatever the guys wanted it to be. It is what it is.
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This is a result of comparing elite (in those skills) members of their respective genders. We know the male physique is likely on the average to have more muscle mass, more quick-twitch muscle, larger (longer) bones than the female physique. Selected, highly-trained specimens will exhibit those tendencies, allowing Geno to make a reasonable assertion.

But, if you grab 5 random men and 5 random women with similar exposure to a sport, there is no basis for making such an assertion.

And the videos included in the thread are not trying to redefine pitching, running, hitting. They're trying to redefine pitching like a girl, running like a girl, hitting like a girl to allow the connotation of excellence in the exercise.
 
JRRRJ said:
This is a result of comparing elite (in those skills) members of their respective genders. We know the male physique is likely on the average to have more muscle mass, more quick-twitch muscle, larger (longer) bones than the female physique. Selected, highly-trained specimens will exhibit those tendencies, allowing Geno to make a reasonable assertion.

But, if you grab 5 random men and 5 random women with similar exposure to a sport, there is no basis for making such an assertion.

And the videos included in the thread are not trying to redefine pitching, running, hitting. They're trying to redefine pitching like a girl, running like a girl, hitting like a girl to allow the connotation of excellence in the exercise.
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If you grab random people, even with similar exposure to a sport, then you haven't isolated for the same amount of training, nutrition, development etc so it's kind of tough to call. (unless you are using' exposure to sport' to encompass everything) The only way to compare is to put both groups through similar regimens, similar ages of development, against playing against similar talent, with similar coaches/trainers etc and see where what the differences are. You compare elite men to elite women, because that's the closest representation of that.

The fact that there are probably only a handful of women competing in the mens' division at the college level tells the story. There's even very few at the high school level.
 
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As an example of my next to last paragraph - take an NBA team where physical and athletic capability
JRRRJ said:
This is a result of comparing elite (in those skills) members of their respective genders. We know the male physique is likely on the average to have more muscle mass, more quick-twitch muscle, larger (longer) bones than the female physique. Selected, highly-trained specimens will exhibit those tendencies, allowing Geno to make a reasonable assertion.

But, if you grab 5 random men and 5 random women with similar exposure to a sport, there is no basis for making such an assertion.

And the videos included in the thread are not trying to redefine pitching, running, hitting. They're trying to redefine pitching like a girl, running like a girl, hitting like a girl to allow the connotation of excellence in the exercise.
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I agree with most of what you are saying but the middle sentence (highlighted does not make sense - the whole idea of average and randomness means that if you chose those two teams the men's team would be longer and stronger than the women's team most of the time. Chances are it would be true 90+ percent of the time. So yes, there is a basis for making that assertion as a generalization.

Davis is an outlier for her gender in terms of athletic prowess and she is a better pitcher then a majority of male pitchers her age - she is probably not better than the best male pitcher her age. As she grows older and the effects of hormones on muscle mass become more pronounced and the effects of different genetics continue to alter the difference in her age group, a higher percentage of males will be stronger and taller than she is and the percentage of males that are better athletically than she is will increase. Add to that maturation process the reduction of people who continue to aspire and train for athletics and in ten years even if she pursues a single sport exclusively and trains more intensively than her male counterparts in that sport she will end up below average in a universe of males who have trained in the same sport.

Golf is perhaps the one professional sport where top women's players have competed head to head in competitions with men - they have been 'competitive' against the field but have never threatened to win any tournament they have played in and have seldom (if ever?) made the cut - they have outscored a number of men, but not the men playing the best on the week.

There are 'sports' where physical strength and size are less important than hand/eye coordination, reaction times, accuracy, and mental fortitude and in those sports it is probably more a function of numbers of participants by gender than the gender itself that has held women back. I am thinking about things like all forms of motor sports or competition shooting. A sport like bowling is borderline - the speed and weight of the bowling ball is not as important as the accuracy but does give men a competitive advantage.
 
UcMiami said:
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I agree with most of what you are saying but the middle sentence (highlighted does not make sense - the whole idea of average and randomness means that if you chose those two teams the men's team would be longer and stronger than the women's team most of the time. Chances are it would be true 90+ percent of the time. So yes, there is a basis for making that assertion as a generalization.
...
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What I meant was if you go grab 10 people from the general population (not ones selected for organized teams) who've had similar exposure (e.g. only played a few times at company picnics, played in recreational leagues for X years, &c.) you'd probably get a range of body types and no kind of guarantee the men would play better.
 
The wheels on the thread go
off the rail
off the rail
off the rail
The wheels on the thread go
off the rail
all through the board
 
"Throw like a girl" is a micro-agression. It's a little comment that we're supposed to ignore because it's not a big deal. It's like a paper cut.

But it happens all the time. Every day for some people. Multiple times a day for some people. Those paper cuts add up, and it HURTS.

Mo'ne throws like a girl because she is a girl. Diana Taurasi shoots like a woman. Sue Bird dribbles like a woman. Maya Moore cuts through the lane like a woman, because she is a woman, and women and girls can do those things. To imply otherwise, to imply that being able to play, to be good at something, makes you more 'masculine' in any sense of the word, is to devalue women. It reminds us that we are considered inferior, not just in sports, but in a lot of ways across our society.

I've been playing softball for 21 years, and I am sick and tired of hearing it. Being able to play does not make me less of a woman, and being a woman does not make me less of a ball player. "Throw like a guy" is not a compliment to me. I am not a guy, why would I throw like one?

Not that it's really relevant, but none of the dudes in my family can throw properly, anyways.
 
ursusminor said:
"Throw like a girl" is a micro-agression. It's a little comment that we're supposed to ignore because it's not a big deal. It's like a paper cut.

But it happens all the time. Every day for some people. Multiple times a day for some people. Those paper cuts add up, and it HURTS.

Mo'ne throws like a girl because she is a girl. Diana Taurasi shoots like a woman. Sue Bird dribbles like a woman. Maya Moore cuts through the lane like a woman, because she is a woman, and women and girls can do those things. To imply otherwise, to imply that being able to play, to be good at something, makes you more 'masculine' in any sense of the word, is to devalue women. It reminds us that we are considered inferior, not just in sports, but in a lot of ways across our society.

I've been playing softball for 21 years, and I am sick and tired of hearing it. Being able to play does not make me less of a woman, and being a woman does not make me less of a ball player. "Throw like a guy" is not a compliment to me. I am not a guy, why would I throw like one?

Not that it's really relevant, but none of the dudes in my family can throw properly, anyways.
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THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY.
But you said it better.
Doing something "like a girl" has been used for far too often and is ALWAYS code for "in a worse/crappier/weaker way". It's obvious there are physical differences between men and women. Why does a girl who is great at something have to be "doing it like a guy"? Or a guy who is bad at something have to be "doing it like a girl"?
We need to erase these things from our vocabulary because that's how kids (who turn into grownups) start to buy into gender stereotypes. It's harmful.
 
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JRRRJ said:
What I meant was if you go grab 10 people from the general population (not ones selected for organized teams) who've had similar exposure (e.g. only played a few times at company picnics, played in recreational leagues for X years, &c.) you'd probably get a range of body types and no kind of guarantee the men would play better.
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Hmm, I would put a lot of money on that they would. If the difference plays out in middle school, high school and college of organized sports, I don't see why it wouldn't hold for 'weekend warriors'. That would imply that if men and women train the same, men make far more gains athletically and skill-wise. Take a golfer who only plays once a week; the average guy is much better than the average woman (obviously you'd have to isolate for practice time). There's a reason you have women's tees, lighter balls in bowling, smaller basketballs, etc...
 
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ursusminor said:
She is a girl, so she throws like a girl. She's also better than all the guys.
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Right on target... Two of my favorite shirts, seen cruising by, during this month's Jersey Shore Half Marathon.

run shirts.JPG
 
intlzncster said:
Hmm, I would put a lot of money on that they would.
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JRRRJ said:
You play in different rec leagues than I do... ;^)
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Gotta go with intlzncster on this one. If you are talking in generalities, then they usually hold at any level. And sometimes even at different levels.

A couple of personal antidotes. In college a friend and I were shooting around. Now I was not a great BB player by any means. I didn't play in HS and my friend was a wrestler by trade. (and wrestlers, in general can't shoot for crap. Quick and can run all day, but can't shoot for crap.) Anyway a couple of girls from the college BB team were in the gym and we decided to play a little 2 on 2. We won rather handily. These were not UCONN level girls. It was a small NAIA school. But just an example of the differences in guys and girls.

Another example. When I was around HS or college age, there was a very good (in their league) women's softball team around our area. Rec league stuff, but they played and had won (quite a few times) the top women's league. My men's team was a church league team. A mid table one at that. It had a little battle of the sexes feel to it. They let us bat first, they were pretty confident I guess. We batted for awhile, quite awhile. When the score got to 22-0 and they had recorded 2 outs, we decided to switch and they would bat. I think they got 1 base runner before we recorded 3 outs. We batted again for a little bit, scored another 8-9 runs, then we all just decided to forget it. It wasn't really helpful to either team.

Granted these examples are many years ago and I imagine girls/women have gained quite a bit of ground. But reality is reality, no matter what the PC police want us to believe. In general girls throw like girls, guys throw like guys. Little boys have great difficulty in skipping (they gallop), girls do it pretty naturally. Girls have trouble doing proper layups (off the correct foot), boys do it much more naturally. None of this is good or bad, just different. Nothing wrong with being different, variety is the spice of life.
 
meyers7 said:
Little boys have great difficulty in skipping (they gallop), girls do it pretty naturally. Girls have trouble doing proper layups (off the correct foot), boys do it much more naturally. None of this is good or bad, just different. Nothing wrong with being different, variety is the spice of life.
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Before I moved into a classroom, I taught elementary school P.E. In my experience bot boy and girl beginners (no previous instruction or practice) at those skills look very similar.
 
calpedaler said:
Before I moved into a classroom, I taught elementary school P.E. In my experience bot boy and girl beginners (no previous instruction or practice) at those skills look very similar.
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Lot of evidence to the contrary. But mostly from what I have read, on the skipping/galloping, its probably a matter of maturity, with girls maturing faster.

As for the layups, that carries over much longer, quite possibly through life. While coaching boys and girls in basketball, I've had to spend a lot longer with the girls to get them to jump off the correct foot. The boys, in general, did it naturally.

It's probably similar to the fact that UCONN works with the girls on jumping and landing, to do it more like guys do. This is too help prevent knee/ACL/etc. problems. Males/females, just do some things naturally different.
 
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meyers7 said:
None of this is good or bad, just different. Nothing wrong with being different, variety is the spice of life.
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You are missing the point. It IS perceived as different. It's perceived as weak. "Throw like a girl" means "you SUCK". Being feminine is BAD. I am less of a person in this society because I am a woman. I don't know how to drive right, I'm over-emotional (I'm being a bitch right now because I dare speak up and have an opinion, I should just shut up and deal), if I have a kid I deserve to be fired but if my male coworker has a kid he deserves a raise so he can support his family. These things still happen, and phrases like "throw like a girl" are a part of it. It supports that way of thinking.

We are constantly put down and belittled. We are constantly reminded that we are less. It doesn't matter if there are real physical differences between men and women. What matters is how those differences are used to make excuses for the insults.
 
ursusminor said:
You are missing the point. It IS perceived as different. It's perceived as weak. "Throw like a girl" means "you SUCK". Being feminine is BAD. I am less of a person in this society because I am a woman. I don't know how to drive right, I'm over-emotional (I'm being a bitch right now because I dare speak up and have an opinion, I should just shut up and deal), if I have a kid I deserve to be fired but if my male coworker has a kid he deserves a raise so he can support his family. These things still happen, and phrases like "throw like a girl" are a part of it. It supports that way of thinking.

We are constantly put down and belittled. We are constantly reminded that we are less. It doesn't matter if there are real physical differences between men and women. What matters is how those differences are used to make excuses for the insults.
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Eh, guys are too (in different ways). But in general don't care about it as much. We are constantly betrayed as buffoons in pop culture (tv shows) and regular media. Almost neanderthal-esque in our need for beer, food and sex. Simple. The Homer Simpson of the species.

Men have a court system stacked against them, which favors women at almost every turn, especially in child care. As if women are automatically better at it, no matter the circumstances. Men will generally do more time for similar crimes, and in much harsher environments.

Men are often told women could get along just fine, especially in child rearing ("all we need is the sperm"), even though evidence exists to the contrary concerning having a male role model.

There's a slew of things, but you don't hear as much about it, because we don't have much of a 'mens' movement. Largely, I reckon , because men are more singular/solitary in their drive and focus, while women are more group oriented. Often times, women (obviously this is not universal--nothing is--just a generality) try to lift each other up, where men prefer to beat and dominate each other.
 
ursusminor said:
You are missing the point.
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I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".

ursusminor said:
It IS perceived as different.
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That's because it is different.

ursusminor said:
It's perceived as weak.
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Well females are generally weaker then males. Biology. Sorry, I'm just stating reality.

ursusminor said:
"Throw like a girl" means "you SUCK".
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Well at throwing, yea. In general girls don't throw as well (mechanics, strength) as boys.

ursusminor said:
Being feminine is BAD.
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Has nothing to do with throwing.

ursusminor said:
I am less of a person in this society because I am a woman.
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Only if you think you are.

ursusminor said:
We are constantly put down and belittled. We are constantly reminded that we are less. It doesn't matter if there are real physical differences between men and women. What matters is how those differences are used to make excuses for the insults.
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Everybody is put down and belittled at some point. It's how you deal with it, how you let it or rather don't let it define you.

My daughter when she was younger she would come home and be upset about what other girls said about her. I asked her if it was true? No. So then what do you care? It took awhile (like months, a couple years), til she finally began to understand that what you know to be true about yourself, should not be affected by what other people think or say. Now she doesn't have the time of day for anyone's "drama". To take it to it's extreme, Wolves do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep.
 
meyers7 said:
I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".


That's because it is different.


Well females are generally weaker then males. Biology. Sorry, I'm just stating reality.


Well at throwing, yea. In general girls don't throw as well (mechanics, strength) as boys.


Has nothing to do with throwing.


Only if you think you are.


Everybody is put down and belittled at some point. It's how you deal with it, how you let it or rather don't let it define you.

My daughter when she was younger she would come home and be upset about what other girls said about her. I asked her if it was true? No. So then what do you care? It took awhile (like months, a couple years), til she finally began to understand that what you know to be true about yourself, should not be affected by what other people think or say. Now she doesn't have the time of day for anyone's "drama". To take it to it's extreme, Wolves do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep.
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You've got to be kidding with all of this, right? "Men's movement"? Give me a break. There's no men's movement because men are in power. And the court system? Seriously? Talk to victims of domestic abuse and ask them how that whole "courts stacked for women" thing is working out for them.

The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with throwing like a girl. The problem is the meaning assigned to those phrases. We use them to put down people who don't do something as well. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. No one is debating that men are stronger than women, or inherently more athletic. The problem is that when you use language that belittles women, it tends to carry over into thoughts, attitudes, and institutional inequality. So it would be better for everyone if "doing something like a girl" was not used as a derogatory phrase. Acting as if the problem doesn't exist isn't the solution here.
 
intlzncster said:
The Homer Simpson of the species.
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The Homer Simpson of the species can act like the world's biggest idiot and still support his family working at a nuclear power plant. Not your best example.

These other things you are complaining about happen because men are supposed to be macho. Men aren't perceived as good caregivers because they're not supposed to be gentle and nurturing. Those are lame womanly skills that men don't have unless they're girly. Get rid of the stigma against traditionally female roles, and men will be treated more equally when they choose to take on those roles.
 
meyers7 said:
I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".
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No, you are refusing to see the larger picture here. This isn't about you or me. This isn't about interpersonal 'drama'. This is about the larger culture in the world we live in. Our physical 'weakness' is seen as emotional weakness, as character weakness. We 'suck' at throwing, so also just suck as people. That is how we are perceived, no matter how much we tell ourselves that it's not true.

You keep talking about biology, but it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about biology facts. If biology was all that mattered, 90% of the most successful thoroughbred horse jockeys would be women, because easily 90% of the people physically small enough to have that job are women. But a quick Google search shows that 19 of the 20 top-ranked jockeys are men. Your facts may be true, but it doesn't matter.

Your daughter can have all the self-confidence in the world, but plenty of people will still treat her like a brainless, weak-willed little sex toy. If she stands up for herself, she'll be lucky if they only swear at her and call her a bitch. Some of those people may be her bosses, or the people who decide if she gets hired or promoted. And your comments, your viewpoint, encourage them to treat her like that.

I met a scientist just last week, not much older than I am, who got kicked out of her job because she decided to have a family. It apparently wasn't 'suitable' for a young mother. Never mind that her husband who made less money was already planning to become a stay-at-home dad so she could work. She was fired anyways.
 
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It's not about whether TECHNICALLY you are right or not that boys, in general, throw better than girls. It's about the effect that saying 'you throw like a girl' has on girls. Don't you think that participating in sports, being fit and having the opportunity to be part of team is valuable for young girls? When you point out that the girls aren't as good as the boys, girls turn away from sports. Is it really necessary for you to make your point at this expense?
 
Girls actually do throw like girls.

Of all things, the overhand throw is actually a differentiator between the sexes.

I'm guessing it all dates back to spears and woolly mammoths, but in the present day, you will never throw beer cans off the deck as far or as fast as we will.

That said, I really dislike the Davis/Chevy commercial. Not sure how they think a 13-year old glaring at the camera will sell Chevys, but they should have done a better job - the kid has such a great personality and they managed to hide all of it.
 
Fishy said:
Girls actually do throw like girls.

Of all things, the overhand throw is actually a differentiator between the s e xes.

I'm guessing it all dates back to spears and woolly mammoths, but in the present day, you will never throw beer cans off the deck as far or as fast as we will.

That said, I really dislike the Davis/Chevy commercial. Not sure how they think a 13-year old glaring at the camera will sell Chevys, but they should have done a better job - the kid has such a great personality and they managed to hide all of it.
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Blame Spike Lee for that - he produced it
 
I am surprised at how many don't see how the way "throws like a girl" is used is pejorative towards girls/women. It is generally used to mean throwing poorly. Given that biologically males have athletic advantages after puberty, that is not generally how the phrase is used. A more accurate phrase might be "throws like a three year old" as the implication is of someone who has really poor mechanics (flinging the ball by just unbending the elbow). If you are never taught differently, you throw "like a girl". Most boys are taught about throwing. Until fairly recently, dad would just chuckle over how his daughter threw and not spend much time correcting her. With teaching, girls can throw with correct mechanics even if the average female does not have the strength of the average male (though they are not exclusive subsets)

I would wager that most women do not want to be told that they are like a man in order to compliment them. And most of us object to comparisons to our gender being used as an insult.
 
sarals24 said:
You've got to be kidding with all of this, right? "Men's movement"? Give me a break. There's no men's movement because men are in power. And the court system? Seriously? Talk to victims of domestic abuse and ask them how that whole "courts stacked for women" thing is working out for them.
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Umm, I didn't say anything about a men's movement or court systems or victims of domestic abuse?????? :confused:

sarals24 said:
The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with throwing like a girl.
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I don't believe I said there was. Not sure what you are reading????? :confused:

sarals24 said:
The problem is the meaning assigned to those phrases.
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But who is doing the assigning here? It's not me. It's you.

sarals24 said:
The problem is that when you use language that belittles women,
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How is doing something like a girl or doing something like a women, belittling? Unless YOU believe females to be inferior (in general)?
 
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