Mo'ne in Chevrolet Commercial

[meyers7]

oooooh boy, Meyers. Couldn't disagree with you more, about disagreeing/arguing being fun - There's a wonderful line in a Monty Python routine - "it's people like you what cause unrest!" - and, that's how I feel about folks who enjoy conflict.

You're a bear. A godless killing machine. Talk about causing unrest and enjoying conflict.

or, for that matter, about "believing one is inferior to feel inferior".

How else can you explain it?

 

[pinotbear]

Perhaps a change of wording would be helpful - when others believe you are inferior, or treat you as such, you have to struggle just to hold your place, just to hold your own. Kind of like swimming upstream, it can be exhausting just to make a little progress. There's a front-page article in today's Boston Globe that somewhat applies to this discussion. Video-gaming/computer software game design is, typically, very male-dominated. A female gamer/designer, in her blog, made a fanciful comment about a male group of gamers feeling threatened because the percentage of women involved in game design might move from 3% to 8%.

She has received death threats. She has been threatened with rape. Her home address has been posted on the web, with the comment "I know where you live!".

I can't imagine a situation where the reverse of this would happen - where a man would make an innocuous comment such as this, regarding employment/participation in a field, and be threatened in the same fashion, with such overt intimidation of serious physical harm or death.

That's not to say that there aren't women who resent a male participating in "their" field (some of Geno's experiences breaking into the ranks of women's coaches come to mind). But, I don't think there's nearly as much heavy-handed. blatant threat of sexual assault and physical harm.

It's kinda hard to believe, in this day and age, that such heavy-handed gender-based bias exists, but it does. It manifests itself in many ways, from the glass ceiling in business, academia, and politics (basically, leadership roles anywhere), to the casual comments made on the street, in the media, certainly in contemporary music. I don't know why, in this day and age, I see and hear some of the stuff I do - it seems to be less enlightened, less tolerant than I remember in my 20's. Although the society has progressed, overall, it doesn't appear to be nicely linear, but rather a "two-steps forward, one-step back" sort of deal. Anyway, I digress.

And, it's not just women who get stereotyped. I also cringe at the way adult males are so often portrayed in media, as nothing more than dumb, large, irresponsible children with excess testosterone.

And, I do believe that there are differences in the genders - physical certainly, social-conditioning certainly, and possibly in the way the brain functions/reacts/reasons to certain situations or stimuli. But, that doesn't mean that acknowledging "viva la difference" permits discriminatory or demeaning behavior that has little if any basis founded in those differences. For some folks, "different" becomes "lesser", and justifies all sorts of ignorance.

We've gone awfully far afield from the original theme of this thread, which was based on the athletic success of a 13-year old girl participating in Little League baseball. She's not a big kid - Wikepedia has her at 5'4" (can't confirm, did not see her standing next to MoJet), and 111 pounds. Although girls are sometimes still bigger than the boys at this age (certainly the physical disparity we see even through high school is lesser in middle school), she certainly doesn't qualify as being unusually large for her age. So, her success is likely based on skill, good coaching, hard work, and an unusually strong mental game. I'd prefer to celebrate that, rather than go through some of the dissection that we have.

 

[meyers7]

I care how I am perceived by the people who decide if I get a job. They decide how much I get paid. They decide if they're going to listen to me if I say I don't want to have a relationship with them. They decide if I'm allowed to take birth control so that my husband and I can afford to finish grad school.

I’m pretty sure nobody is not allowing you to take birth control. Unless it would be a doctor. And if so I imagine it would probably be for a medical reason. If not then you should switch doctors, because obviously that wouldn’t be a very good doctor.

It takes guts to speak up because there are plenty of forums online where, if I argued like this, I'd receive death threats. Literally. People might trace my IP address, track down my facebook account, find my physical address and phone number, and publish them online to encourage people to harass me. I have to be wary of that, because I don't want to have to sell my condo and move just to live my life in relative peace and quiet.

This is the world I live in. .

Really? You actually feel that? You honestly think people care that much about you to go to all that trouble? Not a world I’d want to live in.

When I speak up and risk pissing off a man who sees me as inferior, I'm not just risking my feelings; I'm risking my physical health and my ability to support myself financially.

I would suggest you might want to live in a different world than the one you seem to be in.

I tend to go in cycles of advocacy and burn out. Sometimes I'm all ready to stand up and defend myself and never mind the haters, and sometimes I'm just so tired of it. Sometimes I just want to wake up, go to work, come home, and watch sports on TV, while pretending these problems don't exist. (Can you guess which mood I'm in this week?

)

This I do understand. I myself get tired of dealing with people who don’t know how to drive, don’t know how to park, don’t know how to argue, who misrepresent, etc. etc. etc. Many times I do try to fix them, but other times, it just doesn’t seem worth it. You know, why bother. I agree, go to work, come home, watch sports and just ignore them. Keeps my blood pressure in check. (keep it cool boy, real cool)

Honestly, if you're genuinely interested in trying to understand this,

I don’t think I am. It sounds so foreign to anything that makes sense to me. I don’t really know women or hang out with women who think this way.

I must say though, this has been a really interesting, enlightening conversation.

 

[meyers7]

Perhaps a change of wording would be helpful - when others believe you are inferior, or treat you as such, you have to struggle just to hold your place, just to hold your own. Kind of like swimming upstream, it can be exhausting just to make a little progress.

True, but you can't let that affect what you believe or how you feel, about yourself. That's kinda my point.

And, I do believe that there are differences in the genders - physical certainly, social-conditioning certainly, and possibly in the way the brain functions/reacts/reasons to certain situations or stimuli. But, that doesn't mean that acknowledging "viva la difference" permits discriminatory or demeaning behavior that has little if any basis founded in those differences. For some folks, "different" becomes "lesser", and justifies all sorts of ignorance.

While true, it should not prevent us from acknowledging and discussing the differences.

We've gone awfully far afield from the original theme of this thread, which was based on the athletic success of a 13-year old girl participating in Little League baseball. She's not a big kid - Wikepedia has her at 5'4" (can't confirm, did not see her standing next to MoJet), and 111 pounds. Although girls are sometimes still bigger than the boys at this age (certainly the physical disparity we see even through high school is lesser in middle school), she certainly doesn't qualify as being unusually large for her age. So, her success is likely based on skill, good coaching, hard work, and an unusually strong mental game. I'd prefer to celebrate that, rather than go through some of the dissection that we have.

I agree, but I also think she throws like a boy.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Really? You actually feel that? You honestly think people care that much about you to go to all that trouble? Not a world I’d want to live in.

I would suggest you might want to live in a different world than the one you seem to be in.

I don’t think I am. It sounds so foreign to anything that makes sense to me. I don’t really know women or hang out with women who think this way.

Meyers, I usually respect your opinions, but I just feel you have spent this thread stereotyping and putting the way you feel out on situations that do exist.

Although I don't "participate", I read the letters to the editor in my local paper and often skim the comments after news articles on the web (such as on CNN). I have read what seem to me offensive (to society norms) opinions about women and non-white folks of various sorts that make me want to throw up. I have read that folks on welfare should be sterilized, if you can't afford healthcare or ever smoked you should not be able to be insured or treated, if you say anything against gun control you deserve to have someone shoot at you, etc, never mind hearing personally someone stand up in a Breugger's Bagels and announce that if anyone there wanted to admit to voting for a particular candidate, he would be happy to take them out to the desert and shoot them because that's what they deserved.

Whatever the issue today is, extremists get their point of view out there through media, the internet and behaving like idiots. And, some folks go along like sheep. Disparaging phrases, whether meant that way or not, just encourage this sort of nonsense.

I will add that I never thought of "throw like a girl" as something that needed to be taboo, but the general theme that women are put down and do face disadvantages that most males don't face is certainly true; I've seen it.

 

[sarals24]

Meyers, maybe actually listen to the women on this board who live this every day. It's not something you can possibly understand if you don't live through it, so maybe try opening your mind a bit and actually hear what we're saying? Women have dealt with these types of comments their entire lives.

I'm currently pregnant, and do you know how many times I get asked if I'm going to stay home with my kid? At least once a week. Do you know how many times my husband gets asked that? Exactly zero. Why is that? Why is it assumed that my role is to quit my job and take care of my child?

Women have made enormous strides in this country, but we are still seen sometimes as "lesser". You can see it in the way that the sport that we all love, women's college basketball, is talked about. Geno's accomplishments will never be seen in the same light as Wooden's, no matter how many championships he wins. (Obviously we on this board see it that way, but talk to anyone who isn't a rabid fan of WCBB and you'll see what I mean.) And his accomplishments at UConn are worth less in the eyes of basketball fans because it's "just women's basketball".

The few sports where women are actually respected are typically individual sports, like tennis. And to be honest, much of that is because there are a lot of conventionally attractive female tennis players. Women are rarely talked about as simply "athletes". It's their looks, or their backstory, or the fact that they had a kid, etc, etc, etc. (And I'm talking mainstream media here and your casual fan).

Growing up with this and living through it can make you extremely sensitive to remarks like "throws like a girl." I was a three-sport varsity athlete, and yes, I play sports like a girl, because I am a girl. No, I can't beat my husband in basketball. Does that lessen my accomplishments somehow? No.

It's hard enough to live with the casual, everyday sexism. It makes it much harder when people who care enough to post on a women's basketball board are so dismissive of our opinions. We aren't trying to be argumentative. We are sharing our experiences and saying that, as women, we don't enjoy hearing terms like "throws like a girl". Can you just put aside your biases and try to hear our side of it? Please?

 

[meyers7]

Meyers, I usually respect your opinions,

Well there's your first mistake.

but I just feel you have spent this thread stereotyping and putting the way you feel out on situations that do exist.

And I feel the same about "throwing like a girl". Also I would add there is IMO a lot more stereotyping going on by others in this thread than by me. Besides stereotypes do come from observances. People don't make them up out of the blue.

Although I don't "participate", I read the letters to the editor in my local paper and often skim the comments after news articles on the web (such as on CNN). I have read what seem to me offensive (to society norms) opinions about women and non-white folks of various sorts that make me want to throw up. I have read that folks on welfare should be sterilized, if you can't afford healthcare or ever smoked you should not be able to be insured or treated, if you say anything against gun control you deserve to have someone shoot at you, etc, never mind hearing personally someone stand up in a Breugger's Bagels and announce that if anyone there wanted to admit to voting for a particular candidate, he would be happy to take them out to the desert and shoot them because that's what they deserved.

Whatever the issue today is, extremists get their point of view out there through media, the internet and behaving like idiots.

I agree, there are a lot of idiots out there.

Disparaging phrases, whether meant that way or not, just encourage this sort of nonsense.

This is were we diverge. I don't necessarily think "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy" is disparaging. It's an accurate assessment. In general girls don't throw as well as boys. Nothing wrong with acknowledging reality. That was kind of the whole point of my input in this thread.

I will add that I never thought of "throw like a girl" as something that needed to be taboo, but the general theme that women are put down and do face disadvantages that most males don't face is certainly true; I've seen it.

See, we agree.

But you (and others here) should also be willing to admit that men too, are put down and face disadvantages that most females don't face. Can I get an amen?

 

[j66kicker]

 

[meyers7]

Meyers, maybe actually listen to the women on this board who live this every day.

Maybe some of you could listen to me?? Why doesn’t it go both ways??

And for the record I have been. Just because I don’t agree with some of the things you all have said, doesn’t mean I don’t listen. You don’t agree with me, does that mean you aren’t listening?

It's not something you can possibly understand if you don't live through it,

Then what’s the point of listening to you? If you’ve already determined I can’t understand it?

I'm currently pregnant, and do you know how many times I get asked if I'm going to stay home with my kid? At least once a week. Do you know how many times my husband gets asked that? Exactly zero. Why is that? Why is it assumed that my role is to quit my job and take care of my child?

Congratulations. To the both of you. You’re first? But to answer your question, probably because lot’s of women do. Are they wrong in their choice? Maybe they think you would be a great mother? Maybe they think your husband would be a terrible father? And just because people ask doesn’t mean they think you should. They may just be curious? Or concerned, i.e. what are we going to do without you if you do?? Why do you assume they think you should quit your job?

Women have made enormous strides in this country, but we are still seen sometimes as "lesser". You can see it in the way that the sport that we all love, women's college basketball, is talked about. Geno's accomplishments will never be seen in the same light as Wooden's, no matter how many championships he wins. (Obviously we on this board see it that way, but talk to anyone who isn't a rabid fan of WCBB and you'll see what I mean.) And his accomplishments at UConn are worth less in the eyes of basketball fans because it's "just women's basketball".

The few sports where women are actually respected are typically individual sports, like tennis. And to be honest, much of that is because there are a lot of conventionally attractive female tennis players. Women are rarely talked about as simply "athletes". It's their looks, or their backstory, or the fact that they had a kid, etc, etc, etc. (And I'm talking mainstream media here and your casual fan).

I agree, I know all about that. I follow WBB. I get ribbed by my brothers and other guys about watching WBB. So what? I like it. Do I let it make me feel inferior? No. Same for soccer. It’s made great strides in this country but it’s still looked down upon. As a lesser sport. Not one of the big 4. Do I let it make me feel inferior? No.

Growing up with this and living through it can make you extremely sensitive to remarks like "throws like a girl." I was a three-sport varsity athlete, and yes, I play sports like a girl, because I am a girl. No, I can't beat my husband in basketball. Does that lessen my accomplishments somehow? No.

Exactly. You play like a girl, you throw like a girl. You are a girl. There is nothing wrong with that. So why take offense when someone points out the obvious truth? Do you not want to be a girl/woman? I like being a guy. I would never want to be a girl (well maybe for a couple days to get a better perspective). And you as a girl should never want to be a guy. Be happy in who you are.

Do I take offense when some female says something like “typical guy”? No, I take it as a compliment. I know it wasn’t, it was meant as a put down, but I don’t let it define who I know I am. I don’t let it make me feel inferior.

It's hard enough to live with the casual, everyday s e xism.

Hey, we live with it too. I can’t, as a man, go up to a little crying girl in a supermarket to see if she’s ok or lost. I can’t drive my daughters friends home alone. I can’t go to a park by myself where kids are playing. Women can do that and nobody would bat an eyelash. As a man, I would be looked at as a creep or worse. (And for the record I wouldn’t ever do that.) And I would much rather be thought of as inferior (in gender) than a creep or worse.

It makes it much harder when people who care enough to post on a women's basketball board are so dismissive of our opinions.

I don’t think I’m dismissive. I just don’t agree with all of them. Just like you don’t agree with all of mine. Doesn’t necessarily make you dismissive. Right?

We are sharing our experiences and saying that, as women, we don't enjoy hearing terms like "throws like a girl".

I get that. I would just like to see you all be more confident in who you are as women. Have a greater self worth. Such that what other people may say or do does not make you feel inferior. Be a wolf, don’t concern yourself with the opinions of sheep.

Can you just put aside your biases and try to hear our side of it? Please?

Can you? (And I don’t mean that sarcastically. I know, unusual for me )

This has been a very enjoyable conversation. Really. I know it bothers you guys, but I love having conversations like this.

 

[meyers7]

View attachment 7321

How you ever gonna get to the truth? I feel a break through coming.

 

[OldAlum]

Unless girls are totally unable to throw a ball correctly, the idea that she "throws like a boy" is stupid and demeaning to girls to me.

But I kinda feel like I am in that scene in City Slickers in which Billy Crystal is on horseback trying to explain to another character how to program a VCR. A different character says "Stop! He doesn't get it. He'll never get it. The cows could program the VCR by now!"

 

[DavidinNaples]

meyers7 is normally a smart a s s...even his logo says "Smarty Pants"..
But I have read every post in this thread three times now and I have to say he, in particular, has been respectful, patient and honest in his answers. You don't have to agree w/ his views on the various aspects of this discussion, but IMO he has done a great job explaining how he sees the issues and why he feels the way he does. Where he agrees, he has said so. Where he doesn't, he has explained why, and given thoughtful examples. That is all you can ask for in two-way discussion. And he has been polite, serious and stayed away from personal attacks. (Yes, out of character for sure. )

So throw me on the fire w/ meyers7 for supporting him....but first let me say, I have a mother, sister and wonderful daughter. I love them w/ all my heart and I can't remember ever upsetting them w/ a phrase or expression that made them feel inferior or less of a person. I'm sure I have, and they let it pass, perhaps because they understand my other words and actions for 57 years have shown respect, admiration and love. I have also coached soccer for 25 years, including a decade of girls high school and travel soccer. (Yes, "girls" as opposed to "boys", blame the high school, not me, if that is an issue.) Again, I can't remember a player or parent complaining about an expression, phrase or comment used over the course of many long seasons. Because I'm an old guy, I'm sure something I've said has struck someone's nerve or offended them in some way. But, maybe in my case, they were wise enough not to confuse stupid with s e x ist. Not everything that offends is meant to be s e x ist, and often it isn't even meant to offend. And disagreement is often not meant to be dismissive. I can understand and respect your feelings, without agreeing with them. Hopefully, others can do the same. I think meyers7 did.

The two thoughtful ladies on the other side of this discussion, in particular, are also to be commended for their patience and honesty as well. I also respect your feelings and experiences. Sometimes, the best we can do is respectfully agree to disagree about parts of your presentation. Thank you. Now back to basketball.

 

[sarals24]

Again, and this is the last time I am going to say this...there is nothing inherently wrong with "throwing like a girl". It's when people use the term in a derogatory way (i.e. "that guy can't throw, he throws like a girl") that I take offense. As a female, I have plenty of self esteem, but hearing those types of comments your entire life can get to you. It doesn't matter how much self esteem you have, honestly.

To use another analogy, I am not Native American. So I don't understand everything that group of people has been through. I don't know what they go through on a daily basis. I don't know the prejudices they face, or the things people say to them. So while I might not see the name "Redskins" as offensive, to a lot of Native Americans, it is. And it's their culture, and their right to be offended. As a non-Native American, I can step back and say, "Wow, that must be tough to hear that type of name. I can see how that would be a hurtful thing to your culture. The Washington organization should definitely change that". Even though it has no impact on me and I might not find the term offensive in the slightest.

Same with things said to women. Yeah, you might not get it. You might tell us to just "be stronger" or "have more self-esteem". Well, how about we quit using language that demeans women? Why isn't that the solution instead? Why are we putting the onus on the group that is victimized here?

And no one is saying men don't face similar obstacles in the way language is used. I am not making excuses for that and it should stop also. In this particular instance, someone used the term "throws like a girl" (or in this case, the fact that Mone Davis doesn't) and a few of us replied that we are sick of hearing it. Because we are.

 

[j66kicker]

How you ever gonna get to the truth? I feel a break through coming.

While I agree with Dave that you have been respectful in this discourse, I don't think you're going to "get to the truth"' if the "truth" means one side coming around and accepting the other side's position. That requires listening and empathiszing.

 

[meyers7]

Unless girls are totally unable to throw a ball correctly, the idea that she "throws like a boy" is stupid and demeaning to girls to me.

Not sure what you are trying to say here??

But I kinda feel like I am in that scene in City Slickers in which Billy Crystal is on horseback trying to explain to another character how to program a VCR. A different character says "Stop! He doesn't get it. He'll never get it. The cows could program the VCR by now!"

I feel the same way about some in this thread. But that's ok. When people come from different places (experiences), it's often hard to have a real understanding of their world.

 

[meyers7]

While I agree with Dave that you have been respectful in this discourse, I don't think you're going to "get to the truth"' if the "truth" means one side coming around and accepting the other side's position. That requires listening and empathiszing.

I think both sides can listen and emphasize (have). But I don't think either is going to agree with the other's positions. At least not completely.

 

[JRRRJ]

...
Hey, we live with it too. I can’t, as a man, go up to a little crying girl in a supermarket to see if she’s ok or lost. I can’t drive my daughters friends home alone. I can’t go to a park by myself where kids are playing. Women can do that and nobody would bat an eyelash. As a man, I would be looked at as a creep or worse. (And for the record I wouldn’t ever do that.) And I would much rather be thought of as inferior (in gender) than a creep or worse.
...

...stereotypes do come from observances. People don't make them up out of the blue.

You finally enunciated what those who have been disagreeing with you have been saying, and I'm pretty sure you didn't realize you were supporting their position.

The above excerpt from your post recognizes that you are a victim of stereotyping, and that you have chosen to limit your options in many situations because of that stereotyping. You have allowed the opinions of others to change the way you act, including some situations -- like the crying girl in the market -- where you leave someone in discomfort you might have been able to alleviate. I'm sure that doesn't feel good to you, but you do it anyway because of how someone else might perceive it.

Your other statement about stereotyping is laughable in it's inappropriateness to the discussion. Stereotypes may be created from observations (though in practice the number of observations is often very low -- sometimes one) but they are frequently applied on the basis of very superficial evaluations of a limited number of perceptual notes. It is very difficult to justify the use of stereotypes in making an informed decision in any situation. Stereotypes may be useful as a basis for beginning an evaluation, but deny the unique aspects of a particular instance.

(Sorry about the late continuation, but we have now joined the Boneyard California contingent and are just getting unpacked enough to begin re-introducing some normal activities into our lives.)

 

[JRRRJ]

Unless girls are totally unable to throw a ball correctly, the idea that she "throws like a boy" is stupid and demeaning to girls to me.

But I kinda feel like I am in that scene in City Slickers in which Billy Crystal is on horseback trying to explain to another character how to program a VCR. A different character says "Stop! He doesn't get it. He'll never get it. The cows could program the VCR by now!"

How about "throws well"?