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meyers7

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You are missing the point.
I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".

It IS perceived as different.
That's because it is different.

It's perceived as weak.
Well females are generally weaker then males. Biology. Sorry, I'm just stating reality.

"Throw like a girl" means "you SUCK".
Well at throwing, yea. In general girls don't throw as well (mechanics, strength) as boys.

Being feminine is BAD.
Has nothing to do with throwing.

I am less of a person in this society because I am a woman.
Only if you think you are.

We are constantly put down and belittled. We are constantly reminded that we are less. It doesn't matter if there are real physical differences between men and women. What matters is how those differences are used to make excuses for the insults.
Everybody is put down and belittled at some point. It's how you deal with it, how you let it or rather don't let it define you.

My daughter when she was younger she would come home and be upset about what other girls said about her. I asked her if it was true? No. So then what do you care? It took awhile (like months, a couple years), til she finally began to understand that what you know to be true about yourself, should not be affected by what other people think or say. Now she doesn't have the time of day for anyone's "drama". To take it to it's extreme, Wolves do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep.
 

sarals24

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I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".


That's because it is different.


Well females are generally weaker then males. Biology. Sorry, I'm just stating reality.


Well at throwing, yea. In general girls don't throw as well (mechanics, strength) as boys.


Has nothing to do with throwing.


Only if you think you are.


Everybody is put down and belittled at some point. It's how you deal with it, how you let it or rather don't let it define you.

My daughter when she was younger she would come home and be upset about what other girls said about her. I asked her if it was true? No. So then what do you care? It took awhile (like months, a couple years), til she finally began to understand that what you know to be true about yourself, should not be affected by what other people think or say. Now she doesn't have the time of day for anyone's "drama". To take it to it's extreme, Wolves do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep.

You've got to be kidding with all of this, right? "Men's movement"? Give me a break. There's no men's movement because men are in power. And the court system? Seriously? Talk to victims of domestic abuse and ask them how that whole "courts stacked for women" thing is working out for them.

The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with throwing like a girl. The problem is the meaning assigned to those phrases. We use them to put down people who don't do something as well. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. No one is debating that men are stronger than women, or inherently more athletic. The problem is that when you use language that belittles women, it tends to carry over into thoughts, attitudes, and institutional inequality. So it would be better for everyone if "doing something like a girl" was not used as a derogatory phrase. Acting as if the problem doesn't exist isn't the solution here.
 
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The Homer Simpson of the species.

The Homer Simpson of the species can act like the world's biggest idiot and still support his family working at a nuclear power plant. Not your best example.

These other things you are complaining about happen because men are supposed to be macho. Men aren't perceived as good caregivers because they're not supposed to be gentle and nurturing. Those are lame womanly skills that men don't have unless they're girly. Get rid of the stigma against traditionally female roles, and men will be treated more equally when they choose to take on those roles.
 
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I think you are creating a point that is not really there. At least with regards to "throwing like a girl" or "throwing like a boy".

No, you are refusing to see the larger picture here. This isn't about you or me. This isn't about interpersonal 'drama'. This is about the larger culture in the world we live in. Our physical 'weakness' is seen as emotional weakness, as character weakness. We 'suck' at throwing, so also just suck as people. That is how we are perceived, no matter how much we tell ourselves that it's not true.

You keep talking about biology, but it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about biology facts. If biology was all that mattered, 90% of the most successful thoroughbred horse jockeys would be women, because easily 90% of the people physically small enough to have that job are women. But a quick Google search shows that 19 of the 20 top-ranked jockeys are men. Your facts may be true, but it doesn't matter.

Your daughter can have all the self-confidence in the world, but plenty of people will still treat her like a brainless, weak-willed little sex toy. If she stands up for herself, she'll be lucky if they only swear at her and call her a bitch. Some of those people may be her bosses, or the people who decide if she gets hired or promoted. And your comments, your viewpoint, encourage them to treat her like that.

I met a scientist just last week, not much older than I am, who got kicked out of her job because she decided to have a family. It apparently wasn't 'suitable' for a young mother. Never mind that her husband who made less money was already planning to become a stay-at-home dad so she could work. She was fired anyways.
 
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It's not about whether TECHNICALLY you are right or not that boys, in general, throw better than girls. It's about the effect that saying 'you throw like a girl' has on girls. Don't you think that participating in sports, being fit and having the opportunity to be part of team is valuable for young girls? When you point out that the girls aren't as good as the boys, girls turn away from sports. Is it really necessary for you to make your point at this expense?
 

Fishy

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Girls actually do throw like girls.

Of all things, the overhand throw is actually a differentiator between the sexes.

I'm guessing it all dates back to spears and woolly mammoths, but in the present day, you will never throw beer cans off the deck as far or as fast as we will.

That said, I really dislike the Davis/Chevy commercial. Not sure how they think a 13-year old glaring at the camera will sell Chevys, but they should have done a better job - the kid has such a great personality and they managed to hide all of it.
 
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Girls actually do throw like girls.

Of all things, the overhand throw is actually a differentiator between the s e xes.

I'm guessing it all dates back to spears and woolly mammoths, but in the present day, you will never throw beer cans off the deck as far or as fast as we will.

That said, I really dislike the Davis/Chevy commercial. Not sure how they think a 13-year old glaring at the camera will sell Chevys, but they should have done a better job - the kid has such a great personality and they managed to hide all of it.
Blame Spike Lee for that - he produced it
 
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I am surprised at how many don't see how the way "throws like a girl" is used is pejorative towards girls/women. It is generally used to mean throwing poorly. Given that biologically males have athletic advantages after puberty, that is not generally how the phrase is used. A more accurate phrase might be "throws like a three year old" as the implication is of someone who has really poor mechanics (flinging the ball by just unbending the elbow). If you are never taught differently, you throw "like a girl". Most boys are taught about throwing. Until fairly recently, dad would just chuckle over how his daughter threw and not spend much time correcting her. With teaching, girls can throw with correct mechanics even if the average female does not have the strength of the average male (though they are not exclusive subsets)

I would wager that most women do not want to be told that they are like a man in order to compliment them. And most of us object to comparisons to our gender being used as an insult.
 

meyers7

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You've got to be kidding with all of this, right? "Men's movement"? Give me a break. There's no men's movement because men are in power. And the court system? Seriously? Talk to victims of domestic abuse and ask them how that whole "courts stacked for women" thing is working out for them.
Umm, I didn't say anything about a men's movement or court systems or victims of domestic abuse?????? :confused:

The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with throwing like a girl.
I don't believe I said there was. Not sure what you are reading????? :confused:

The problem is the meaning assigned to those phrases.
But who is doing the assigning here? It's not me. It's you.

The problem is that when you use language that belittles women,
How is doing something like a girl or doing something like a women, belittling? Unless YOU believe females to be inferior (in general)?
 

Icebear

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I am surprised at how many don't see how the way "throws like a girl" is used is pejorative towards girls/women. It is generally used to mean throwing poorly. Given that biologically males have athletic advantages after puberty, that is not generally how the phrase is used. A more accurate phrase might be "throws like a three year old" as the implication is of someone who has really poor mechanics (flinging the ball by just unbending the elbow). If you are never taught differently, you throw "like a girl". Most boys are taught about throwing. Until fairly recently, dad would just chuckle over how his daughter threw and not spend much time correcting her. With teaching, girls can throw with correct mechanics even if the average female does not have the strength of the average male (though they are not exclusive subsets)

I would wager that most women do not want to be told that they are like a man in order to compliment them. And most of us object to comparisons to our gender being used as an insult.
Pinot and OSouthbranch had teams filled with kids who threw like girls and they were as good and better than the boys.

Disparaging as it was and is more so today throwing like a girl, generally, meant throwing off the wrong foot, and leading with the hand rather than leverage from the anatomy chain from shoulder to the elbow to the wrist and off the fingers.
 

meyers7

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No, you are refusing to see the larger picture here.
Not exactly. I just don't think the "throwing like a girl" is connected to the larger picture. I think YOU are connecting it. And incorrectly. Maybe it helps drive some anti-male agenda you have??? Or maybe you really do think females are inferior?? I don't know.

This isn't about you or me.
Well it sure seems like it is about you.

You keep talking about biology, but it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about biology facts.
So facts don't matter. Just your agenda. Ok, got it. I bet though if facts supported your agenda, they would matter. Hmmm?

Your daughter can have all the self-confidence in the world, but plenty of people will still treat her like a brainless, weak-willed little s e x toy. If she stands up for herself, she'll be lucky if they only swear at her and call her a bitch. Some of those people may be her bosses, or the people who decide if she gets hired or promoted. And your comments, your viewpoint, encourage them to treat her like that.
You are stepping over a line now. You know nothing about my daughter. I'd prefer if you didn't make degrading assumptions about her. She is not like you. I don't take very kindly to someone who messes with my family. I'm sure if you have a family, you feel the same way.

I met a scientist just last week, not much older than I am, who got kicked out of her job because she decided to have a family. It apparently wasn't 'suitable' for a young mother. Never mind that her husband who made less money was already planning to become a stay-at-home dad so she could work. She was fired anyways.
Is this supposed to be a "fact" that matters?? I call B/S on your little "story".
 
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Seems like there are two issues here:

Do girls throw differently than boys? Seems like there is evidence that they do.

Is the phrase "throws like a girl" used to refer to biomechanical differences? IMO, no. It is generally used as an insult and means throwing poorly.

So please understand that the phrase has longstanding connotations and is offensive to many - especially women. (I don't get terribly upset but I don't like it!)
 

Icebear

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Seems like there are two issues here:

Do girls throw differently than boys? Seems like there is evidence that they do.

Is the phrase "throws like a girl" used to refer to biomechanical differences? IMO, no. It is generally used as an insult and means throwing poorly.

So please understand that the phrase has longstanding connotations and is offensive to many - especially women. (I don't get terribly upset but I don't like it!)
While clearly not a function of bio-mechanical gender differences it is definable in bio-mechanical terms as are all body actions. It is the labeling of the action that is obsolete and which never applied accurately in any absolute sense.
 
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Right on target... Two of my favorite shirts, seen cruising by, during this month's Jersey Shore Half Marathon.

View attachment 7286
I learned pretty quickly running 10k's up in Northern California that any girl worth chasing, I couldn't catch... :(

My favorite race when I was just starting out was a 12k up the foothills of Mount Diablo. Probably the first time I had run over a mile for a time, and I was cruising in feeling pretty proud of myself when someone pulls up in my peripheral vision. It was a woman looked to be in her 60's, and she looked over and bore down...well, it was on, I nosed her out at the finish line but it kinda took the warm glow off the whole affair.
 

Blakeon18

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Adding two cents worth....or possibly less:

Back in the mid 1990's Tabitha King...wife of a certain Stephen King...wrote a book about a fabulous basketball player
from Maine...Cindy Blodgett. She was a legendary high school player in Maine and, I think, had many elementary and junior high leagues named after her.
The book title...tongue clearly in cheek...was Plays like a Girl.


BTW: Tabitha and Stephen were [hope they still are] huge supporters of the Maine women's team. Maine was matched up against UConn
in Gampel in round 1 of the 1995 NCAA tourney. Stephen and Tabitha were in elite seats right behind the Maine bench. The game was a rout but Cindy clearly had
a lot of ability. I remember chatting with a Maine fan on the concourse pregame and getting into an argument about which frosh was better...Cindy or our own Nykesha.



BTW#2: I think Cindy was hired as head coach at Maine at some point and my recollection is that it didn't go well.

BTW#3: repeat here. Stephen King was walking around the concourse at some point and a lady shyly came up to him and clearly asked for his autogaph.
He shook his head and she backed away from him clearly embarrassed. At that point he walked after her and seemed to be giving an explanation for his refusal.
I was pretty close but not close enough to hear him. Perhaps he said he only gives autographs to children? Perhaps that he doesn't give autographs at games or he would
be doing nothing but and he just wants to root on the Black Bears? Anyway....she left the scene looking much more relieved and less embarrassed after hearing him...still
with no autograph though.
 

JRRRJ

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Umm, I didn't say anything about a men's movement or court systems or victims of domestic abuse?????? :confused:


I don't believe I said there was. Not sure what you are reading????? :confused:


But who is doing the assigning here? It's not me. It's you.


How is doing something like a girl or doing something like a women, belittling? Unless YOU believe females to be inferior (in general)?

Meyers, I don't believe your head is stuck so far in the sand you aren't aware a large segment of our society uses these phrases as pejoratives and women encounter them intended as put-downs frequently. Put-downs have impact. Repeated impacts often create sore spots that are hot buttons. When someone you don't know pushes on a hot button of yours, it most likely hurts -- you have no context in which to assume put-down wasn't meant.

Women don't believe they are inferior -- they believe they are dis-valued.

With cause, though there's lots of us who don't subscribe to this Neanderthal ethos. (Sorry, Neanderthals, needed a metaphor.)
 

JRRRJ

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ursusminor said:
Your daughter can have all the self-confidence in the world, but plenty of people will still treat her like a brainless, weak-willed little s e x toy. If she stands up for herself, she'll be lucky if they only swear at her and call her a bitch. Some of those people may be her bosses, or the people who decide if she gets hired or promoted. And your comments, your viewpoint, encourage them to treat her like that.

You are stepping over a line now. You know nothing about my daughter. I'd prefer if you didn't make degrading assumptions about her. She is not like you. I don't take very kindly to someone who messes with my family. I'm sure if you have a family, you feel the same way.

Now I do think your head is stuck in the sand.

ursusminor said nothing about any daughter you may have. She only spoke about the way many in society will treat that daughter, and opined that the views you've expressed here tend to support the mindset that will generate that treatment.

I agree with her opinion.

Words are important.
 

meyers7

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Meyers, I don't believe your head is stuck so far in the sand you aren't aware a large segment of our society uses these phrases as pejoratives and women encounter them intended as put-downs frequently.
Most certainly.

Put-downs have impact. Repeated impacts often create sore spots that are hot buttons.
Ah, see there, if you let them. One must think/ believe one is inferior to feel inferior. Otherwise why would you ever???

Women don't believe they are inferior -- they believe they are dis-valued.
I would disagree. I believe lots of women, for some reason, think they are inferior. For some reason they believe what these "neanderthals" say about them/to them. Not sure why. Most people believe they are dis-valued. Men and women. So women aren't special in that.
 

meyers7

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Now I do think your head is stuck in the sand.
And you would be wrong. See how that works? I know who I am, you don't. I don't let your insult define who I know I am.

ursusminor said nothing about any daughter you may have. She only spoke about the way many in society will treat that daughter, and opined that the views you've expressed here tend to support the mindset that will generate that treatment.
You would be wrong again. You also do not know my daughter. Don't assume you do.
and opined that the views you've expressed here tend to support the mindset that will generate that treatment.

I agree with her opinion.
And a third time you are wrong again, as was she.

Words are important.
Yes they are. Read carefully and don't assume.
 
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Ah, see there, if you let them. One must think/ believe one is inferior to feel inferior. Otherwise why would you ever???

I was never speaking of how I felt; I am speaking of how I am perceived. If I felt inferior, I wouldn't be so damned pissed about being treated like an inferior. If I felt like an inferior, I wouldn't have the guts to keep speaking up and disagreeing with you.
 

meyers7

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I was never speaking of how I felt; I am speaking of how I am perceived. If I felt inferior, I wouldn't be so damned pissed about being treated like an inferior. If I felt like an inferior, I wouldn't have the guts to keep speaking up and disagreeing with you.
And that's pretty much my point. You care how you are perceived. By people you don't really have any respect for. Why?

And I never said how you "felt". I was addressing JR. But my point does stand. One must believe one is inferior to feel inferior.

And why would you ever need "guts" to disagree with me????? Disagreeing/arguing is fun. :D
 

pinotbear

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oooooh boy, Meyers. Couldn't disagree with you more, about disagreeing/arguing being fun - or, for that matter, about "believing one is inferior to feel inferior". There's a wonderful line in a Monty Python routine - "it's people like you what cause unrest!" - and, that's how I feel about folks who enjoy conflict.
 
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And that's pretty much my point. You care how you are perceived. By people you don't really have any respect for. Why?

And I never said how you "felt". I was addressing JR. But my point does stand. One must believe one is inferior to feel inferior.

And why would you ever need "guts" to disagree with me????? Disagreeing/arguing is fun.

I care how I am perceived by the people who decide if I get a job. They decide how much I get paid. They decide if they're going to listen to me if I say I don't want to have a relationship with them. They decide if I'm allowed to take birth control so that my husband and I can afford to finish grad school.

It takes guts to speak up because there are plenty of forums online where, if I argued like this, I'd receive death threats. Literally. People might trace my IP address, track down my facebook account, find my physical address and phone number, and publish them online to encourage people to harass me. I have to be wary of that, because I don't want to have to sell my condo and move just to live my life in relative peace and quiet.
It happens all the time in the video gaming industry (I play games, and have friends in that career field). For reference:
http://kotaku.com/felicia-day-and-gamergate-this-is-what-happens-now-1650544129
("Doxxing" is when your personal details are released online without your consent. This woman, an actress known for geeky roles, published an essay saying she was upset about a recent controversy surrounding a woman working in gaming, but she was afraid of being harassed and doxxed. It happened pretty much immediately.)

This is the world I live in. When I speak up and risk pissing off a man who sees me as inferior, I'm not just risking my feelings; I'm risking my physical health and my ability to support myself financially. And even if that wasn't true, the unending little insults and put-downs wear you down. It's stressful. That affects your physical health. It goes back to the papercut theory; it's easy to ignore one, it's possible to ignore two or three or four, but we're talking about dozens.

I tend to go in cycles of advocacy and burn out. Sometimes I'm all ready to stand up and defend myself and never mind the haters, and sometimes I'm just so tired of it. Sometimes I just want to wake up, go to work, come home, and watch sports on TV, while pretending these problems don't exist. (Can you guess which mood I'm in this week? :rolleyes:)

Honestly, if you're genuinely interested in trying to understand this, I'd suggest talking to some smart, strong woman you know personally and asking for their perspective. Maybe your daughter. She may agree with you, I don't know, but she may be able to explain what I'm trying to say in a way that makes more sense than words on the internet.
 
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