McCallie steps in it; no "lessons learned;" UConn mention [merged thread]

[Kevin G]

Classless move McCallie!!

 

[msf22b]

Well, let's recognize that the competition in the WNBA is a bit tougher, so can you really compare stats? I doubt that there are many who will not say that Stokes is performing better as a pro than she did as a Husky. Her stats against college competition should have been much better than they were based on her WNBA stats. So who would be responsible for those stats, Stokes or Geno? Exchange the names Williams and JPM and the answer would obviously be JMP, right? It couldn't have had anything to do with Williams, right? If she were that unhappy at Duke I find it difficult to think that she gave 100% effort all the time.

And didn't JMP prepare Haley Peters for the WNBA? And Karima Christmas, Chelsea Gray, Jasmine Thomas and Krystal Thomas. Were all of these players so immensely talented that they made WNBA squads despite the coaching of JPM?

Like I have said, and has been no secret, I am not a JPM fan, but she has developed some talent and Williams, despite whatever complains she has, was prepared for play in the WNBA.

If Elizabeth Williams confided all, I would expect her to say that she got little technical help, hated the environment was disheartened and depressed leading to serious conditioning and injury issues; actually found the quality of her game slipping backwards, rather than improving.

With decent pro coaching, she rediscovered her desire, and despite a not great rookie year, got into top shape, honed skills in the off-season and her game now resembles the play of the young woman we expected when she started at Duke (what was it...6 years ago?).

Elizabeth Williams is the locus classicus of JPM's failures as a coach, mentor and human being.

 

[easttexastrash]

If Elizabeth Williams confided all, I would expect her to say that she got little technical help, hated the environment was disheartened and depressed leading to serious conditioning and injury issues; actually found the quality of her game slipping backwards, rather than improving.

With decent pro coaching, she rediscovered her desire, and despite a not great rookie year, got into top shape, honed skills in the off-season and her game now resembles the play of the young woman we expected when she started at Duke (what was it...6 years ago?).

Elizabeth Williams is the locus classicus of JPM's failures as a coach, mentor and human being.

Either that or Williams is refusing to take responsibility for her own lack of performance. Like I said, JPM can't make the girl get in the gym and work on her shot. And let's face it, had Williams been able to shoot better her college career would have looked much different.

 

[veryolddog]

After reading five pages of this McCallie story, I am surprised that no one has come out and said it. McCallie, a mediocre coach at best at prestigious Duke University a traditional basketball institution, is a blankity, blank. She collects talented basketball players and produces mediocre results, and the team underachieves. The fan base is frustrated, and her players are frustrated. She simply, does not know how to produce and manage a system to produce a "team". Obviously, her "talented" players can't live up to their potential because she does not know how to challenge and bring out the best in them. It is quite obvious that Azura Stevens wants to excel and be pushed as hard as she can to be a team player and simply improve her skill sets that will prepare her for the future. That is missing at Duke and it is not the team's fault, it is the coach's fault. McCallie refuses to accept that responsibility in spite of the talent that she has, and would prefer to blame everyone else for her own short comings. Duke will not do any better this season and the infection that is there will be come worse and spread. It is not over yet.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

As most of the BONEYARDERS know I am not a fan of Elizabeth Williams, by any means! At Duke she was tremendously over-rated by the "talking suits" to unbelievable levels and was not worthy of those accolades! She was the only so-called star that could score 20 points and 20 rebounds then the next game score no points and 2 rebounds!
That being said, Elizabeth is performing at a much higher scale as the Atlanta Dream Center.
Reading all the recent stuff from and about Coach McCallie, she is treading on the edge of complete and utter incompetence!
Her coaching has been a disaster for EW and Azura Stevens, and the rest of the talented young ladies wearing or have worn the Blue Devils uniforms during her tenure!
McCallie should not be allowed to coach even on the Middle School level BB!
Between her attacking her players after games to referring to opposing players by their uniform # breaches with this other info.

 

[southbendcane]

Thought you were implying something unethical was being done. Just because they wanted to go to UConn doesn't mean Geno will take them anyway. The last 3 kids just fit our needs and their wants.

It would be suicide to do that on a U Conn board LOL. Not at all . I do think for the first time in awhile they were thin on bigs and they saw a few quality players who fit their need. Like i said i see nothing wrong with it. My team needs another big and wish they would take in a transfer or two .

 

[southbendcane]

Several schools have had SEVERAL high quality transfers over the last few years. This may be a relatively recent phenomena but SC isn't the only school benefitting from this. Arguably the best transfer in the last few years decided to go to UCONN. Why should that be met with suspicion? The girl wanted to play for a good coach, in a good program that wins. The same could be said for those transferring to SC.. or Ohio State... or Baylor... or Louisville.. etc.

Dawn had prior recruiting relationships with Allisha Gray and Alexis Jennings, kinda like UCONN had with high profile transfer Batouly Camara.. Gray actually was committed to SC before deciding to instead go to UNC with Mavunga, Cherry and DeShields. Kaela Davis is good friends with Kelsey Bone, who once was at South Carolina but transferred to A&M to be closer to home. SC and Bone parted ways in good spirits and Bone actually recommended SC to Davis. Sarah Imovbioh was a graduate transfer from UVA and she wanted to spend her last year of eligibility playing for a winning program with lots of visibility... serves her right because she's now playing for the Nigerian national team along with another former Gamecock, Elem Ibiam.

I see your points and i knew about all those factors. I never said she was. But to get what at least 4 or 5 in the last 2 years seems a bit much. I think that is more then anyone else by a few.

 

[SCGamecock]

SCG.....if you haven't read it yet, check out the article I posted under Transfers about Staley/Martin and their feelings about transfer mania....very thought provoking stuff you will enjoy it...

Thanks for posting! Yes, I did read the article... brings up some great points about this new "transfer market"..

 

[SCGamecock]

I see your points and i knew about all those factors. I never said she was. But to get what at least 4 or 5 in the last 2 years seems a bit much. I think that is more then anyone else by a few.

Did you really know about those factors though because if you had we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And you're right, you never said any wrongdoing occurred, but the implication of wrongdoing was there, even if you didn't mean for it to be.

For the sake of facts though, we've had 4 in and 3 out... not 5.

SC - Gray, Davis, Jennings, Imovbioh
UCONN - Butler, Camara, Stevens
Ohio State - Harper, Calhoun, Mavunga
Baylor - Jones

So we beat the next transfer happy school by 1. I'm sure there are other schools that could be added to this list.. but that's just off the top of my head without research.

 

[Charliebball]

I don't see anything wrong with schools bringing in transfers as long as it isn't detrimental to team chemistry.................frankly if a school needs to bring in multiple transfers over several years it means that they have not been successful with their more traditional recruiting path......that seems to be the case for South Carolina, Ohio State and UConn at least for the moment.............

 

[Carnac]

Did you really know about those factors though because if you had we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And you're right, you never said any wrongdoing occurred, but the implication of wrongdoing was there, even if you didn't mean for it to be.

For the sake of facts though, we've had 4 in and 3 out... not 5.

SC - Gray, Davis, Jennings, Imovbioh
UCONN - Butler, Camara, Stevens
Ohio State - Harper, Calhoun, Mavunga
Baylor - Jones

So we beat the next transfer happy school by 1. I'm sure there are other schools that could be added to this list.. but that's just off the top of my head without research.

All's fair in love, war and accepting transfers. If YOU don't grab them, someone else certainly will..........and then beat you with them.

 

[CocoHusky]

Either that or Williams is refusing to take responsibility for her own lack of performance. Like I said, JPM can't make the girl get in the gym and work on her shot. And let's face it, had Williams been able to shoot better her college career would have looked much different.

Of course JPM can make Elizabeth Williams get in the gym and work on her jump shot. That would be called "practice!". Elizabeth's individual performance or lack of it is not the issue with the Duke program. Think about it, HR was brought in. The issue is that coach JPM does not know how to treat other humans being-her players, her assistant coaches, and now her peers Geno and Dawn.

 

[baggerbob]

Of course JPM can make Elizabeth Williams get in the gym and work on her jump shot. That would be called "practice!". Elizabeth's individual performance or lack of it is not the issue with the Duke program. Think about it, HR was brought in. The issue is that coach JPM does not know how to treat other humans being-her players, her assistant coaches, and now her peers Geno and Dawn.

Its amazing how the Student Athlete was very gracious in her statement for leaving , and the coach comes off as a jerk.

 

[CocoHusky]

And didn't JMP prepare Haley Peters for the WNBA? And Karima Christmas, Chelsea Gray, Jasmine Thomas and Krystal Thomas. Were all of these players so immensely talented that they made WNBA squads despite the coaching of JPM?

Yes. They were immensely talented and in all cases would have been better prepared to play in the WNBA under the tutelage of the two people (Geno & Dawn) that JPM is attacking in her vicious rant. Consider that all the Duke players you list (Haley Peters, Karima Christmas, Chelsea Gray, Jasmine Thomas and Krystal Thomas) as HS players were rated ahead of say, I don't know.... Tiffany Mitchell & Kiah Stokes!

 

[SCGamecock]

All's fair in love, war and accepting transfers. If YOU don't grab them, someone else certainly will.....and then beat you with them.

Exactly. Did you see the article @Charliebball posted in the transfer thread? Dawn pretty much said what you said without using those exact words.

Nobody likes the high numbers of transfers.. but you either get with it or get left behind. It's not going away any time soon.

 

[Vowelguy]

How much is the bad publicity costing Duke in terms of lower donations from boosters and what is the revenue lost from fewer ticket sales?

I agree that all costs need to be considered.

However, I suspect lost ticket sales are very much. When duke has hosted ncaa tourney games, it has typically had among the worst attendance numbers. Support isn't huge. Last year avg home attendance was 4500, basically same as previous year. 5 years ago it was ~5300.

Being extremely liberal, assume another attendance drop of 800 (doubtful in 1 year), with an average price paid of 10 (I bet that's high), it's 8000 per game or less than 150k per year.

Mccallies salary is high 6 digits. She has 3 years left on this contract, so we could be talking a 2 million payout.

Whether that is a small amount in Dukes total annual budget is irrelevant. It surely is not a small part of the schools non-FB athletic budget. Where is that money going to come from?

 

[msf22b]

As most of the BONEYARDERS know I am not a fan of Elizabeth Williams, by any means! At Duke she was tremendously over-rated by the "talking suits" .

Elizabeth entered Duke as a tier one prospect and never came close to reaching her potential...actually seemed to go backward as I noted above.
Perhaps we'll really never know what really happened...but its unlikely the result of splendid coaching and and a warm atmosphere.

Now, as a pro, we're beginning to revisit that potential we saw in her Senior Year in High School and in occasional flashes at Duke.

I can't imagine why anyone would not be a fan...seems like a splendid and intelligent young woman.

And if UConn never had to face her best, the result of unexplained program difficulties at Duke,,,great for us.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Elizabeth entered Duke as a tier one prospect and never came close to reaching her potential...actually seemed to go backward as I noted above.
Perhaps we'll really never know what really happened...but its unlikely the result of splendid coaching and and a warm atmosphere.

Now, as a pro, we're beginning to revisit that potential we saw in her Senior Year in High School and in occasional flashes at Duke.

I can't imagine why anyone would not be a fan...seems like a splendid and intelligent young woman.

And if UConn never had to face her best, the result of unexplained program difficulties at Duke,,,great for us.

msf22b- - - What upset me about EW wasn't her personally, it was that she was given credit and awarded positions on All-Conference, All-American, etc. that took a spot IMO of a more deserving player! The player rewarded wasn't the player performing on the court! To all accounts Elizabeth is a wonderful person and brilliant student, and is playing inspired BB with the Atlanta Dream this season! But I hate to see awards, fame given to unqualified individuals! The press is the least qualified to vote for awards or placements. There are times the more qualified individual is overlooked for a more famous teammate, such as Stef Dolson should have won the outstanding player of Big East Tournament instead it went to Maya Moore who in acceptance Maya said Dolson should have gotten the MOP. Another is Stewie getting MOP for Junior year NCAA FF instead of MoJeff who Stewie in tears said should have gotten the award but "suits" wanted to give Stewie her 3rd MOP in a row, a record!
The coaches awards or polls or players votes are always the right choices because they see competitors every game, day-in-day-out!
To me The Muffett at ND gets way more credit than she deserves! She is a good coach, not a great coach! She has had many chances to win multiple Championships and has come up short every time but one, and that one can be argued she and ND wouldn't have beaten UCONN in 2001 FF semi's if UCONN had both Svet & Shea healthy! And yes ND had beaten UCONN earlier in the season WITH Svet & Shea healthy, but the FF is a different type of animal, look up UCONN 11-0 in FF Finals! Svet & Shea would as seniors have settled an unnerved Huskies after 1/2 time, and they would have played with DT on the bench not shooting 1 for 15! Cinching the victory then beating Purdue in the Finals giving UCONN eventually 5 titles in a row!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

As far as accepting transfers and the right or wrong of it, is that in today's WCBB there are a huge list of transfers the last 2 or 3 years, for what-ever reason. That is the way the game is played right now, and as a transfer comes to a coach and says I'd like to play for you, that coach is able to sign on a talented newcomer! Why not? That player will just go elsewhere! Same thing happened in MLB when free agents could go to different teams. The NY Yankees got the reputation of BUYING PLAYERS to win Championships!
That's the rules of the game you follow the rules! I personally don't like buying players for millions of $! But if that's the way the way the game is played, play it well! It doesn't always workout!

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

It is amazing how someone in a position like hers can make such asinine comments. If Duke leadership has any hope of rebuilding their program, they need to cut ties with McCallie immediately.

From a top HC at a top program to an inflammatory rhetoric-belching ignoramus coaching a borderline tire-fire in less than a year. Amazing.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

As most of the BONEYARDERS know I am not a fan of Elizabeth Williams, by any means! At Duke she was tremendously over-rated by the "talking suits" to unbelievable levels and was not worthy of those accolades! She was the only so-called star that could score 20 points and 20 rebounds then the next game score no points and 2 rebounds!
That being said, Elizabeth is performing at a much higher scale as the Atlanta Dream Center.
Reading all the recent stuff from and about Coach McCallie, she is treading on the edge of complete and utter incompetence!
Her coaching has been a disaster for EW and Azura Stevens, and the rest of the talented young ladies wearing or have worn the Blue Devils uniforms during her tenure!
McCallie should not be allowed to coach even on the Middle School level BB!
Between her attacking her players after games to referring to opposing players by their uniform # breaches with this other info.

You know, the same could be said for most of the many extremely talented former Rutgers players in the WNBA. Rutgers was offensively-challenged, to say the least. Yet when they got out of C. Viv's system, many blossomed into some of the most dynamic and dangerous scorers in the entire pro league. Sometimes, it's a pattern.

 

[mauconnfan]

Decent recruiter at fertile grounds like duke makes it easy to get real good players. Difference between her and K is one can actually coach the other is incompetent. Get's top 20 players and can't touch UConn, hardly ever in the game. Pitiful and embarrassing statements from a coach who realizes she's never going to be anything more than a good ACC team.

Become a better coach and maybe you can keep your players there JP. For now, you just totally embarrassed this elite university. WOW

 

[tennparker3]

From what I understand is that Williams played much of her Duke career with stress fractures and could barely practice for a period of time. She is and has always been a great defender and most of her accolades were because of her defense. I'm pretty sure she would've left Duke had it not been for level of importance she put on academics but from a number of people with Duke ties I have heard the girl was not happy there. So I give her credit for sticking it out and playing through injuries while she dealt with a woman she did not care for.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

And didn't JMP prepare Haley Peters for the WNBA? And Karima Christmas, Chelsea Gray, Jasmine Thomas and Krystal Thomas. Were all of these players so immensely talented that they made WNBA squads despite the coaching of JPM?

Like I have said, and has been no secret, I am not a JPM fan, but she has developed some talent and Williams, despite whatever complains she has, was prepared for play in the WNBA.

ASGR (2007)
5. Jasmine Thomas
10. Krystal Thomas
13. Karima Christmas

ESPN/Hoopgurlz (2007)
7. Jasmine Thomas
8. Krystal Thomas
31. Karima Christmas

ASGR (2010)
8. Chelsea Gray
18. Haley Peters

ESPN/Hoopgurlz (2010)
4. Chelsea Gray
19. Haley Peters

Blue Star (2010)
4. Chelsea Gray
9. Haley Peters

ASGR (2011)
1. Elizabeth Williams

ESPN/Hoopgurlz (2011)
2. Elizabeth Williams

Blue Star (2011)
2. Elizabeth Williams

Also, Jasmine Thomas, Krystal Thomas, Chelsea Gray, Haley Peters, and Elizabeth Williams were all McDonald's All-Americans.

In terms of being "immensely talented," I would argue that being ranked in the top ten of recruiting classes (which five of the players you listed were) and being named McDAAs would fit that bill.

 

[UcMiami]

JPM and her teams never had a chance against Uconn, and most of us primarily saw Williams in those games - with limited creativity on offense and no creativity on defense from JPM, Duke players were sitting ducks. It takes a really creative individual player to thrive in that kind of situation and Williams for being a fairly traditional center dependent on guards and wings to feed her the ball it was a real struggle. Against better coaches, Uconn can make good players look dreadful, with JPM leading the way ...

On the whole I thought Williams was a very good college player, and given a year to develop after Duke, she is proving to be a good pro.

Anything voted on is always debatable, but I didn't think Williams' awards in college stood out as being undeserved. Just as there could have perhaps been 'better' selections in regard to some of Stewart's awards, but they were not 'wrong'. Her presence and performance were essential to the wins.

For whatever reason, Muffet has not recruited as well at ND as other coaches have at other schools. That has changed in the last 5+ years compared to prior periods and may well be a direct result of Ivey - I suspect Muffet on her own isn't that dynamic in her home visits compared to some other coaches, she certainly isn't in her public interactions. Her coaching performance has been outstanding, and but for Uconn, she would have several more NCs. Counting is I think a better determiner of coaching than counting NCs - NCs are a bit of luck and/or overwhelming talent. strings of are more likely to be coaching driven.