Mac and cheese kid arrested in Florida

[David 76]

AA receives $0 health care dollars. Insurance companies began to require a 12 step component in treatment simply because it was to their financial advantage because it increased the chances of success.
There are changes in the brain of a n alcoholic that remain without drinking and won't exist in me if I went on a month long bender. This gives some scientific credence to that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic concept you dislike.
I don't know if this is personal to you or if you are responding on behalf of empiricism. What I know is that when I look at people who were a mess and are now happy and productive, a 12 step program is involved the vast, vast majority of the time

 

[tdrink]

AA receives $0 health care dollars. Insurance companies began to require a 12 step component in treatment simply because it was to their financial advantage because it increased the chances of success.
There are changes in the brain of a n alcoholic that remain without drinking and won't exist in me if I went on a month long bender. This gives some scientific credence to that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic concept you dislike.
I don't know if this is personal to you or if you are responding on behalf of empiricism. What I know is that when I look at people who were a mess and are now happy and productive, a 12 step program is involved the vast, vast majority of the time

It is not personal to me, so I won't press it. There is no doubt it works for some people so it's effectiveness is never supposed to be questioned.

 

[FluxTZ]

And as I load this page I'm served 2x ads for rehab centers in CA

 

[August_West]

AA receives $0 health care dollars. Insurance companies began to require a 12 step component in treatment simply because it was to their financial advantage because it increased the chances of success.
There are changes in the brain of a n alcoholic that remain without drinking and won't exist in me if I went on a month long bender. This gives some scientific credence to that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic concept you dislike.
I don't know if this is personal to you or if you are responding on behalf of empiricism. What I know is that when I look at people who were a mess and are now happy and productive, a 12 step program is involved the vast, vast majority of the time

My take is that it is proven to be the Best way for long term success. It has a track record. It is to be commended for that. It has most likely saved millions of lives. There is no arguing with success. But it may not be the "only way" . And maybe what Tdrink was getting at (or maybe not, I dont want to put words in his mouth) is that there are some that espouse it as the "only way" from within the rooms (despite what the "official stance" may be....Ive seen it) and from outside.

 

[tdrink]

My take is that it is proven to be the Best way for long term success. It has a track record. It is to be commended for that. It has most likely saved millions of lives. There is no arguing with success. But it may not be the "only way" . And maybe what Tdrink was getting at (or maybe not, I dont want to put words in his mouth) is that there are some that espouse it as the "only way" from within the rooms (despite what the "official stance" may be....Ive seen it) and from outside.

The horse had a good track record of moving people and goods around prior to the invention of the internal combustion engine. Arguing for gas powered engines is not arguing against horses or denying their track record of success.

August, you advocate for harm reduction policies. Those fly generally in the face of the 12 step all or nothing approach.

So many emotional ties to this issue from so many people that it makes rational discussions extremely difficult. Best for me to step away from the topic.

 

[donyell34]

Alcohol ruined the lives of 3 good friends and terrible to witness close up. Also had 3 good friends come back from the brink of disaster and don't know exactly how they did it other than yes all 3 went to A A. There leading such productive lives now and a pleasure to see.

 

[bballgrda]

@8893 consider me inspired.

That's a killer username/avatar combo.

 

[David 76]

It is not personal to me, so I won't press it. There is no doubt it works for some people so it's effectiveness is never supposed to be questioned.

No! All things should be questioned. I meant to show some of the other side of the argument, not shut you down. It certainly is not all things to all people at all times of their life. New converts can be annoying. But if someone I cared about had a problem, I would encourage this path. Even if they were as without faith as me.

 

[August_West]

The horse had a good track record of moving people and goods around prior to the invention of the internal combustion engine. Arguing for gas powered engines is not arguing against horses or denying their track record of success.

August, you advocate for harm reduction policies. Those fly generally in the face of the 12 step all or nothing approach.

So many emotional ties to this issue from so many people that it makes rational discussions extremely difficult. Best for me to step away from the topic.

The horse had a good track record of moving people and goods around prior to the invention of the internal combustion engine. Arguing for gas powered engines is not arguing against horses or denying their track record of success.

August, you advocate for harm reduction policies. Those fly generally in the face of the 12 step all or nothing approach.

So many emotional ties to this issue from so many people that it makes rational discussions extremely difficult. Best for me to step away from the topic.

Yes I'm a major advocate for harm reduction. What " harm reduction " amounts to for me is getting people to not die or not go to jail in the interim before they are ready for a different way of life.
I believe AA/ NA program is a valuable asset to those in need and provides a long term path.
Where I differ with that is with the " hes not ready yet" or the " gotta hit your bottom first" . Yes that is one way, but some peoples bottoms are death or jail. Harm reduction is a bridge between active, destructive use and long term recovery.

Ive always said that AA/NA steps are really mostly a set of life principles that EVERYONE can benefit from applying.
If you remove the early steps that everyone freaks out about ( admitting higher power, admitting powerlessness) which a are specific to your addiction, what are you left with?

Making a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself? Right on. Who wouldn't benefit from honest introspection?

Making amends to people you've wronged? You dont have to be an addict to have wronged people . A clear conscience is a wonderful thing. For anyone.

Bettering yourself and the world by being in service to others?
Sure. sign me up. I'm an an idealist. I've always believed that.

 

[dennismenace]

It doesn't claim to be based in science. It believes that the disease of alcoholism is physical, mental/emotional and spiritual. It cooperates with the scientific community as well as churches
and psychology. It is a fellowship. It has no opinions on outside groups or methods.

AA has no doctrine. The twelve steps are "suggestions" because the fellowship has learned through experience that most alcoholics are too defiant to accept anything less than suggestions!
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-92_en.pdf

 

[tdrink]

Yes I'm a major advocate for harm reduction. What " harm reduction " amounts to for me is getting people to not die or not go to jail in the interim before they are ready for a different way of life.
I believe AA/ NA program is a valuable asset to those in need and provides a long term path.
Where I differ with that is with the " hes not ready yet" or the " gotta hit your bottom first" . Yes that is one way, but some peoples bottoms are death or jail. Harm reduction is a bridge between active, destructive use and long term recovery.

Ive always said that AA/NA steps are really mostly a set of life principles that EVERYONE can benefit from applying.
If you remove the early steps that everyone freaks out about ( admitting higher power, admitting powerlessness) which a are specific to your addiction, what are you left with?

Making a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself? Right on. Who wouldn't benefit from honest introspection?

Making amends to people you've wronged? You dont have to be an addict to have wronged people . A clear conscience is a wonderful thing. For anyone.

Bettering yourself and the world by being in service to others?
Sure. sign me up. I'm an an idealist. I've always believed that.

The crux of the article I keep referring to is that the Europeans now treat alcoholism by having heavy drinkers take a pill before they start drinking. The pill overrides the neural pathways that get "pleasure" (sense of normalcy) from alcohol. Within a couple of days the person no longer has the desire to drink. Whether or not there is relapse the harm reduction is almost immediate and at a very low relative cost. But it's implementation has been objected.

I see alcoholism as the "hijacking" of neural pathways. I think it is a mental illness much like depression. The brain has the capability to be "normal" but is stuck in a loop. I don't believe it is a progressive disease. And I don't believe that people should be told they have to bottom out and that they can never touch a drop or they will end up on a bender. That is codifying and self predictive.

So yes, introspection, making amends and serving others are great and I wish everyone would do those things across the board. But we don't lean on people who just got over a bout of depression to apologize to others.

 

[8893]

Yes I'm a major advocate for harm reduction. What " harm reduction " amounts to for me is getting people to not die or not go to jail in the interim before they are ready for a different way of life.
I believe AA/ NA program is a valuable asset to those in need and provides a long term path.
Where I differ with that is with the " hes not ready yet" or the " gotta hit your bottom first" . Yes that is one way, but some peoples bottoms are death or jail. Harm reduction is a bridge between active, destructive use and long term recovery.

Ive always said that AA/NA steps are really mostly a set of life principles that EVERYONE can benefit from applying.
If you remove the early steps that everyone freaks out about ( admitting higher power, admitting powerlessness) which a are specific to your addiction, what are you left with?

Making a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself? Right on. Who wouldn't benefit from honest introspection?

Making amends to people you've wronged? You dont have to be an addict to have wronged people . A clear conscience is a wonderful thing. For anyone.

Bettering yourself and the world by being in service to others?
Sure. sign me up. I'm an an idealist. I've always believed that.

Commie.

 

[David 76]

The crux of the article I keep referring to is that the Europeans now treat alcoholism by having heavy drinkers take a pill before they start drinking. The pill overrides the neural pathways that get "pleasure" (sense of normalcy) from alcohol. Within a couple of days the person no longer has the desire to drink. Whether or not there is relapse the harm reduction is almost immediate and at a very low relative cost. But it's implementation has been objected.

I see alcoholism as the "hijacking" of neural pathways. I think it is a mental illness much like depression. The brain has the capability to be "normal" but is stuck in a loop. I don't believe it is a progressive disease. And I don't believe that people should be told they have to bottom out and that they can never touch a drop or they will end up on a bender. .

I agree with most of what you say. There may be a day where our knowledge of neural pathways changes everything.
But I think it is a progressive disease. It follows a pattern, gets worse, etc.
And making amends? I think you are underestimating the level of narcissism that develops from addiction. That is different than a typical depressed person.
If you read this thread, you know I'm not for waiting for people to hit their bottom. There was a pretty intense conversation a few pages back. We agree on that too

 

[tdrink]

I agree with most of what you say. There may be a day where our knowledge of neural pathways changes everything.
But I think it is a progressive disease. It follows a pattern, gets worse, etc.
And making amends? I think you are underestimating the level of narcissism that develops from addiction. That is different than a typical depressed person.
If you read this thread, you know I'm not for waiting for people to hit their bottom. There was a pretty intense conversation a few pages back. We agree on that too

There are lots of negative behaviors that come from changes to brain chemistry that are self feeding. Laziness, anger, compulsive shopping, over eating, under eating, over working, body obsession, sex addiction, etc..All create changes in brain chemistry/neural paths, but we don't label those as "diseases." And we don't expect people to completely give up the things that created the obsession. We don't tell a sex addict that they can't ever have sex again. The goal is to get them to engage in the behavior in a responsible matter.

Some of those are out of necessity. People can't give up eating entirely. But moving people toward engaging in the behavior responsibly takes away the on the wagon/off the wagon cycle that so many addicts fall into. This wouldn't be ideal for everyone or every situation, but potentially more effective in some situations.

 

[dennismenace]

I agree with most of what you say. There may be a day where our knowledge of neural pathways changes everything.
But I think it is a progressive disease. It follows a pattern, gets worse, etc.
And making amends? I think you are underestimating the level of narcissism that develops from addiction. That is different than a typical depressed person.
If you read this thread, you know I'm not for waiting for people to hit their bottom. There was a pretty intense conversation a few pages back. We agree on that too

Thanks for this post. There is all kinds of help for the suffering alcoholic/addict. On the matter of "bottom". The 12th step is about carrying the message (of hope) to the alcoholic who still suffers. "Bottoms" can be raised by revealing what alcoholism really is and how there can be hope. At the beginning of nearly every meeting a reading from chapter 5 of the Book "Alcoholics Anonymous" is read. This passage is called "How it Works". It begins with the words "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed are path". Unfortunately for the suffering alcoholic, they are there own worst enemy. They often do not have the words "I need help" in their vocabulary. By attending meetings they can see that they are not alone, that there is a way out if they keep an open mind.
If they lack faith in recovery they can be strengthened by a room full of people with the same problem who are living in the solution (one day at a time) and recovering. It is common
at most meetings to find people with decades of continuous recovery. Alcoholism (and drug addiction) is an equal opportunity employer. From Yale to jail. From Park Place to the park bench.
Those who work in this field as well as those in the rooms know that if a person has clinical depression and are alcoholic they have two diseases. Both must be dealt with. Thank God today there
are is an increasing awareness of the disease aspect of alcoholism and the many people who work in fields to help all those who suffer from this.

 

[bballgrda]

The crux of the article I keep referring to is that the Europeans now treat alcoholism by having heavy drinkers take a pill before they start drinking. The pill overrides the neural pathways that get "pleasure" (sense of normalcy) from alcohol. Within a couple of days the person no longer has the desire to drink. Whether or not there is relapse the harm reduction is almost immediate and at a very low relative cost. But it's implementation has been objected.

I see alcoholism as the "hijacking" of neural pathways. I think it is a mental illness much like depression. The brain has the capability to be "normal" but is stuck in a loop. I don't believe it is a progressive disease. And I don't believe that people should be told they have to bottom out and that they can never touch a drop or they will end up on a bender. That is codifying and self predictive.

So yes, introspection, making amends and serving others are great and I wish everyone would do those things across the board. But we don't lean on people who just got over a bout of depression to apologize to others.

I referenced this pill in the addiction thread on the cesspool. Radiolab had multiple guests on for a show, one of which had short term success, long term failure with the pill. They speculate as to what the cause of this may be. Full disclosure, I am not sure what the overall statistics on the lasting success of the pill is. The concepts it presented are still fascinating regardless.

Spoiler: Addiction Post

Reminds me of a Radiolab episode, “The Fix.” I recommend listening to it if you find yourself w/ 30min in a car or something (can listen to it at 1.25x speed comfortably). Many of the topics brought up in this thread are touched upon. It starts off by introducing Baclofen, a muscle relaxant, and its efficacy at treating addiction, “flipping a switch.” They look at alternative programs to AA, using “evidence based treatment” to decide what drugs should be administered to the patient.

They interview a patient of one of the programs. He talks about how the alternative programs were effective in removing “the urge to drink, but not completely the urge to be intoxicated, to ‘feel like himself.’” Really brings up some fascinating questions regarding the ego and self-identity. Highlights the importance of filling the void left from one’s addiction. They bring him back (after yet another relapse) and he talks about going back to a 12 step AA program in addition to using meds and attending an EBT program, citing the positive feeling of being w/ others in the same boat.

The episode concludes w/ an interview of an NIH researcher. She claims that some drugs light up the same circuits in your brain that are involved when one feels “connected.” Makes me wonder about the future, are we as a society becoming more isolated or more connected?

For those who have never been addicted it can be difficult to empathize with an addict, they are involved in blatantly self destructive behavior that makes no logical sense and is all sorts of whacked from a cost/benefit view.