Liz Cambage Disses the WNBA

[lne001]

I"m guessing that the players will opt out of their agreement on November 1. It's coming!

Good. And what are you expecting to be the outcome of that decision?

 

[CocoHusky]

I actually love Cambage. Her personality has been huge for the WNBA whether you think it's good or bad. I also think she should be able to do whatever she wants and what's best for her. Taking summer off to heal or be with friends isn't a bad thing. There really isn't much shelf life in a basketball career. Also, I can think of one family that did it their way and we're bashed for it and look how amazing their careers turned out. Venus and Serena played tournaments sparingly and played on the tour minimally with a lot of criticism. I'm pro Cambage on this one.

The WNBA is not indentured servitude. Liz's is free to do exactly as you suggests-"what is best for her". DT also took a season off from the WNBA.

 

[WLT1717]

Wow!! Amazing article! And far better than the PR for management article that Michelle Voepel spewed out. This is really telling:

"This season, with the World Cup set to begin on Sept. 22, the WNBA was forced to pack the same 34 games it always plays into two fewer weeks. For Cambage’s Dallas Wings team, that’s meant playing 34 games in 93 days. The toughest stretch: a four-game in seven-night cross-country grind from New York on a Sunday, home in Texas on Tuesday, at Los Angeles Thursday, and at Seattle on Saturday.

“If you want this game to be at the top level, you have to treat your players like they’re top level.”
“You see how many ACL injuries have happened this season?” Cambage asked me. “That comes from fatigue. Injuries come from fatigue, especially injuries like that, and it’s proven.”

Exactly. The Aces were right not to risk career-ending ACL injury by playing fatigued.

I"m guessing that the players will opt out of their agreement on November 1. It's coming!

The Aces were not “right” in blowing off a game and the Mystics organization and fans; players were not exposed to injury; they opted not to compete under difficult circumstances - possibly even out of pique - where many of their peers would have played through. Please, rather than simply resort to “should” do this and that because in your opinion - lacking any empirical support whatsoever - W players deserve more than they are getting under the deal their union negotiated. I tend to think the players negotiated that deal, and the relatively lower overall salaries that resulted therefrom - because they were making a thoughtful long-term investment in the infrastructure of the league and the well-being of the overall player cohort. If you want more invested in marketing of the league and promotional efforts, that appears to be what the players have done. The W is owed nothing. It needs to generate interest, gate, viewers, afterwhich everything else follows. Until then . . .

 

[Fairfield Fan]

The WNBA collective bargaining agreement runs through 2021, either side (players or owners) can opt out in 2019 at the earliest.

According to the Cambage article, "The Players Association and the league have a Nov. 1 opt out date for their current Collective Bargaining Agreement that many on the player’s side believe to be unfair. The opt out would take effect after the 2019 season."

In other words, they can declare that the players are opting out on November 1, and the actual abrogation of that agreement would take place after the 2019 season. If they declare they're opting out, negotiations would begin right then. I doubt that the WNBA management, i.e., the guys running the NBA, would want this hanging over their heads going into the upcoming season.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

The Aces were not “right” in blowing off a game and the Mystics organization and fans; players were not exposed to injury; they opted not to compete under difficult circumstances - possibly even out of pique - where many of their peers would have played through. Please, rather than simply resort to “should” do this and that because in your opinion - lacking any empirical support whatsoever - W players deserve more than they are getting under the deal their union negotiated. I tend to think the players negotiated that deal, and the relatively lower overall salaries that resulted therefrom - because they were making a thoughtful long-term investment in the infrastructure of the league and the well-being of the overall player cohort. If you want more invested in marketing of the league and promotional efforts, that appears to be what the players have done. The W is owed nothing. It needs to generate interest, gate, viewers, afterwhich everything else follows. Until then . . .

No NBA player would have been required to play that game. It is in their contract that they specifically would not play it. So why is it wrong for the women to ask for the same conditions that the men enjoy? Is it that they're "just women," so they don't get the same level of consideration?

A little gender equality, please?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

The WNBA is not indentured servitude. Liz's is free to do exactly as you suggests-"what is best for her". DT also took a season off from the WNBA.

Yep, and if its top players increasingly blow off the WNBA, then what happens to the pro league in the U.S.? Most of the best American soccer players go to Europe, and don't bother with pro soccer in the U.S. Should the best players in the U.S. abandon playing here? Is that what management wants?

If not, then management have some major changes to make. Read that entire article and Cambage's suggestions and criticisms, and one sees that she has a lot of rational arguments.

November 1 will be a momentous day.

Wonder what the current UConn players will say about it? Wonder how the UConn alumnae will vote? I'm guessing that every single one of the alumnae will vote to opt out.

 

[WLT1717]

According to the Cambage article, "The Players Association and the league have a Nov. 1 opt out date for their current Collective Bargaining Agreement that many on the player’s side believe to be unfair. The opt out would take effect after the 2019 season."

In other words, they can declare that the players are opting out on November 1, and the actual abrogation of that agreement would take place after the 2019 season. If they declare they're opting out, negotiations would begin right then. I doubt that the WNBA management, i.e., the guys running the NBA, would want this hanging over their heads going into the upcoming season.

“guys running the NBA” Hello? You continue to make this an NBA, men issue. It is not. The W is led by amazing women, one of whom I practiced law with personally for years, aka Lisa Borders. They are doing what they think makes sense working with the players reps. It may not be perfect but this is not about NBA men devaluaing W players.

 

[lne001]

No NBA player would have been required to play that game. It is in their contract that they specifically would not play it. So why is it wrong for the women to ask for the same conditions that the men enjoy? Is it that they're "just women," so they don't get the same level of consideration?

A little gender equality, please?

In the 1980s the NBA would have definitely played that game, and did.

They don't get that consideration today because no one wants to watch them thus no one is willing to pay the league and teams enough to afford it.

Gender equality is a myth.

 

[vtcwbuff]

Cambage - “That comes from fatigue. Injuries come from fatigue, especially injuries like that, and it’s proven.”

Is it? I thought ACL injuries were primarily because women's knees are more susceptible to injury. What does she want anyway. One game a month. The W has a wuss schedule anyway. If players are fatigued from playing year round - that's on them. They could have chosen a different profession.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I seriously wonder if the players walked away from the negotiating table and there was a lockout, would the WNBA ever recover, or would the league fold at that point? Labor agreement issues and strike shortened seasons have definitely hurt men's professional sports in the short term. It seems like the WNBA is already on insecure enough footing that they might not be able to survive something like this.

 

[j66kicker]

Yep, and if its top players increasingly blow off the WNBA, then what happens to the pro league in the U.S.? Most of the best American soccer players go to Europe, and don't bother with pro soccer in the U.S. Should the best players in the U.S. abandon playing here? Is that what management wants?

If not, then management have some major changes to make. Read that entire article and Cambage's suggestions and criticisms, and one sees that she has a lot of rational arguments.

November 1 will be a momentous day.

Wonder what the current UConn players will say about it? Wonder how the UConn alumnae will vote? I'm guessing that every single one of the alumnae will vote to opt out.

Well they better be careful what they ask for. An ultimatum of, “We get this or we don’t play” could easily result in the “don’t play” option.

I personally suspect any renegotiation of their CBA - whenever that happens - will be more collaborative, with the players, for the most part, understanding what’s realistic when nobody comes to see you play.

 

[WLT1717]

No NBA player would have been required to play that game. It is in their contract that they specifically would not play it. So why is it wrong for the women to ask for the same conditions that the men enjoy? Is it that they're "just women," so they don't get the same level of consideration?

A little gender equality, please?

Your reasoning is so incoherent I can’t keep up with it. The players are in the WNBA. The W players union, made up of women, negotiated a deal, ie, gender equality. The league, and its teams, generally lack the revenue to travel by charter - ergo every team is susceptible to the kinds of travel nightmares that come with flying Commerical. In every other instance of hardship in the history of the W teams have persevered and played their games. The Aces chose not to. They have borne the consequences.

 

[bballnut90]

I seriously wonder if the players walked away from the negotiating table and there was a lockout, would the WNBA ever recover, or would the league fold at that point? Labor agreement issues and strike shortened seasons have definitely hurt men's professional sports in the short term. It seems like the WNBA is already on insecure enough footing that they might not be able to survive something like this.

Agreed...I really don't think the owners have much to lose if players go on strike, where in the NBA the owners have heaps of millions to lose. I can't imagine that many teams are that profitable with the mediocre attendance and free tickets given out to boost attendance. Unless players are on a rookie contract, most of these players make between 90-115k for 4 months out of the year, and almost all of these players are in their mid 20s to early 30s. Not to mention they have a college degree with zero debt. Compare that to the average college grad who makes $40k out of school and has $50k in student loans. These players are making good money. Plus many of the players who've been vocal make big bucks overseas (Taurasi, McBride, Cambage), should be able to live off their basketball earnings the rest of their life provided they don't blow through their money. Look at almost any other women's sport and see how much players make...it's a fraction of what players in the W make. The players have a lot more to lose than the owners if they were to go on strike.

 

[Shades]

No NBA player would have been required to play that game. It is in their contract that they specifically would not play it. So why is it wrong for the women to ask for the same conditions that the men enjoy? Is it that they're "just women," so they don't get the same level of consideration?

A little gender equality, please?

If you think it’s about gender equality, I guess that has to start with the consumer. Why aren’t they gobbling up the product?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

“guys running the NBA” Hello? You continue to make this an NBA, men issue. It is not. The W is led by amazing women, one of whom I practiced law with personally for years, aka Lisa Borders. They are doing what they think makes sense working with the players reps. It may not be perfect but this is not about NBA men devaluaing W players.

Let's see. Doesn't the organization that owns the NY Knicks also own the Liberty? Didn't the NBA establish the WNBA? I've read references to subsidies from the NBA to the WNBA. Are we sure that the NBA doesn't exercise significant influence over the WNBA?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Agreed...I really don't think the owners have much to lose if players go on strike, where in the NBA the owners have heaps of millions to lose. I can't imagine that many teams are that profitable with the mediocre attendance and free tickets given out to boost attendance. Unless players are on a rookie contract, most of these players make between 90-115k for 4 months out of the year, and almost all of these players are in their mid 20s to early 30s. Not to mention they have a college degree with zero debt. Compare that to the average college grad who makes $40k out of school and has $50k in student loans. These players are making good money. Plus many of the players who've been vocal make big bucks overseas (Taurasi, McBride, Cambage), should be able to live off their basketball earnings the rest of their life provided they don't blow through their money. Look at almost any other women's sport and see how much players make...it's a fraction of what players in the W make. The players have a lot more to lose than the owners if they were to go on strike.

Well, we're about to find out. If the WNBA folds, at least half of the league's players will simply continue to play in Europe and Asia, and for a lot of money. If the NBA folds the WNBA, will a new league emerge?

And in terms of players being "vocal," Diana Taurasi stated that it is very rare that the players get to be together and discuss issues of importance to them. It could be that they are just now finding their voice, and only now beginning to truly organize in their best interests.

I find it very surprising that the fans of women's basketball are so critical of those same women athletes when they talk about negotiating a better deal for themselves, including better pay and working conditions. I don't understand why these ardent fans of UConn women's basketball, whose players almost all go on to play in the pros, don't want to stand behind them when they speak out for a better deal.

I'm on their side. I'm rooting for them to get all they're entitled to.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

If you think it’s about gender equality, I guess that has to start with the consumer. Why aren’t they gobbling up the product?

As Diana Taurasi and Liz Cambage, two of the finest women's basketball players ever, pointed out, the league is just not marketing this product nearly as well as they should be. They're not selling the product to those consumers.

 

[bballnut90]

As Diana Taurasi and Liz Cambage, two of the finest women's basketball players ever, pointed out, the league is just not marketing this product nearly as well as they should be. They're not selling the product to those consumers.

I think this is the biggest issue....the league hasn't been able to market well enough to draw in new fans or boost attendance even though the quality of play is far better and more entertaining than it was just 5-10 years ago.

 

[msf22b]

Liz had a huge game, willed her team into the playoffs.
I am fundamentally with her with regard her business
observations.
The W is (in many ways) a joke....nice if it stays alive; no great loss if it doesn't.
Won't have a big impact on our college favs ability to make a living; just our ability to follow them.
Yes, 100k for 4 months on a major professional sports team of our finest woman is a joke and a travesty...only in America!

 

[Shades]

Liz had a huge game, willed her team into the playoffs.
I am fundamentally with her with regard her business
observations.
The W is (in many ways) a joke....nice if it stays alive; no great loss if it doesn't.
Won't have a big impact on our college favs ability to make a living; just our ability to follow them.
Yes, 100k for 4 months on a major professional sports team of our finest woman is a joke and a travesty...only in America!

Most of the players in the WNBL (Australia) get far less.

 

[Shades]

As Diana Taurasi and Liz Cambage, two of the finest women's basketball players ever, pointed out, the league is just not marketing this product nearly as well as they should be. They're not selling the product to those consumers.

In a way, I market at a grassroots level to hardcore women’s college basketball fans by starting WNBA game threads to encourage these hardcore women’s college basketball fans to watch WNBA games live, but the response has been disappointingly tepid. There’s not a lot of evidence to show that the majority of hardcore women’s college basketball fans are interested in watching WNBA games live over what they normally watch or do. They are more interested in looking at the box score to see how their college favorites did. This is a general conclusion that doesn’t apply to everyone obviously.
So if you’re one of these hardcore women’s college basketball fans who aren’t that into the WNBA, I’m curious why. Is it because you have no local team (that might be huge for me)? Is it because it’s hard to find on television (even though most games are on very cheap League Pass that can be played on television)? Or is it you just don’t care for the product?
If it’s difficult to market to hardcore women’s college basketball fans on their own turf, how much good is it going to do to throw a ton of television marketing money at NBA fans, who would be presumably so much less interested in the WNBA than hardcore women’s college basketball fans? I don’t think a ton of money into television marketing is going to do a lot of good or has shown to be an effective use of the money. They need to rely on the grassroots methods until they’re a richer league, and that’s going to take time and patience.

 

[j66kicker]

Let's see. Doesn't the organization that owns the NY Knicks also own the Liberty? Didn't the NBA establish the WNBA? I've read references to subsidies from the NBA to the WNBA. Are we sure that the NBA doesn't exercise significant influence over the WNBA?

The only influence the Liberty are getting from the MSG (Knicks) group is trying (unsuccessfully) to sell them, then moving them to a remote dump of an arena with half the seating capacity of the Liberty's average attendance last year. This is an organization that cares so deeply about women's issues that their owner (Dolan) and President (Isaiah Thomas) have both been in court for sexually harassing female employees.

 

[j66kicker]

In a way, I market at a grassroots level to hardcore women’s college basketball fans by starting WNBA game threads to encourage these hardcore women’s college basketball fans to watch WNBA games live, but the response has been disappointingly tepid. There’s not a lot of evidence to show that the majority of hardcore women’s college basketball fans are interested in watching WNBA games live over what they normally watch or do. They are more interested in looking at the box score to see how their college favorites did. This is a general conclusion that doesn’t apply to everyone obviously.
So if you’re one of these hardcore women’s college basketball fans who aren’t that into the WNBA, I’m curious why. Is it because you have no local team (that might be huge for me)? Is it because it’s hard to find on television (even though most games are on very cheap League Pass that can be played on television)? Or is it you just don’t care for the product?
If it’s difficult to market to hardcore women’s college basketball fans on their own turf, how much good is it going to do to throw a ton of television marketing money at NBA fans, who would be presumably so much less interested in the WNBA than hardcore women’s college basketball fans? I don’t think a ton of money into television marketing is going to do a lot of good or has shown to be an effective use of the money. They need to rely on the grassroots methods until they’re a richer league, and that’s going to take time and patience.

I'm a hard core UConn WBB fan, and I do go to a few WNBA games a year and watch a lot of them on TV and League Pass. But I admit my interest in the WNBA is more driven by following past UConn stars than by actually finding the WNBA game exciting. I feel lucky to have lived in Phoenix for the past 10 years and been able to go see DT play whenever I want. For the most part, without the UConn stars, and a few other players I'm very familiar with from hating them in college or otherwise following them as UConn opponents, I probably wouldn't find the WNBA all that exciting.

In the earlier days of the WNBA there was a concerted effort to place college stars near where they played in college. It worked out great for Minnesota with Lindsay Whalen, for example. When I still lived in CT I went to see the Sun play so I could see Nykesha. I think that sort of marketing might work better - at least on male sports fans - than gender-related causes which are probably aimed at females but don't seem to be having any positive effect.

 

[j66kicker]

I'm rooting for them to get all they're entitled to.

I hope they get more too, by increasing the popularity of the game, thereby increasing the revenue available. But they aren't "entitled" to anything. I hate the entitlement mentality. This is capitalism - you eat what you kill.

 

[vtcwbuff]

If you want to point a gender finger as the reason the WNBA is struggling then point it at women. All those women who don't attend games, who don't watch on TV and couldn't care less about supporting a women's pro league. If women were sports fans at anywhere near the level that men are then women's pro leagues would be successful.

I have been a UConn WCBB fan for many years. So has my wife. My daughter attended UConn for 7 years. My wife is a fan only because I forced her interest. I call her "fan lite." Both my kids are UConn grads and big UConn basketball fans - of the men. If I mention the women's game to either of them I get a polite "Yeah they're pretty good this year" and then their eyes glaze over, just like every other sports fan I know.