Lebron vs. Kobe

[mauconnfan]

The 60's and 70's they played the game like it should have been played on both ends and there were less teams, more talented teams mostly top heavy no doubt. The 80's began the saturation and the NBA's idea to create the KINGs and the guys they needed to market....with that the refereeing became biased and everything with it and has since. Not to say that Michael or LeBron aren't the greatest or the best no matter when they played but things in the NBA will never be the same to the traditionalists. It's okay that people like the new brand but it's not for me. Hasn't been the same since Larry and Magic and the players now have them to thank!!

 

[HuskyFan32]

Some things need to be kept in mind. First, Lebron is undeniably great right now. But he’s being compared to the greatest athlete of all time, and possibly the person that mastered his craft to a greater extent than anyone ever has. Until recently, Lebon’s game was predicated almost entirely on speed and power. Would he really be as dominant with rules the way they used to be? It’s impossible to say, but you have to imagine that his game would be negatively affected by all the hand checking that went on. Can you imagine what MJ would be able to do in today’s league, when they practically roll a red carpet down en route to the hoop? He got to the hole all game long and finished with guys grabbing, shoving, elbowing, and throwing him to the floor.
Second, the league may have been watered down in the 90’s, but look at it today. A third of the teams today purposely suck for years. They draft one and doners and young kids, and let them play through their struggles in hopes of reaching their potential. I’m looking at you Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Magic, Cavs, Kings, Raptors and previously Warriors, Sixers, Bucks. Should Brandon Knight and Tyreke Evans really be starting PG’s in the NBA??? The entire strategy of these teams is literally to suck for years and hope it works out. I mean come on..
Additionally, to the poster who said the East sucked when MJ played. Look at it today! The only team that even has a chance of giving the Heat a series is a team whose best player is a decently efficient volume scorer who doesn’t pass or play a lick of defense. And their second best player comes off the bench and is an even less efficient volume scorer who also doesn’t pass or play defense. Other than that the East is utter garbage. Lebron is playing the all star game tonight with half of the other 4 starters from his own team!
Look at Andre, who is my favorite player in the league. We all saw his complete lack of offensive game last year, and he has been dominant in stretches in the NBA this year. Its just the way the rules are and the game is set up. Would Andre even be playing in the 90’s this year. Highly unlikely. Jordan changed the game and made all of this happen. Theres no big men anymore and athleticism and potential are much much higher priorities than skills or ability now.
With that said, Lebron will probably end up 2nd when its all said and done. But he really can’t do anything to surpass MJ who never lost in the finals. Lebron is 1 for 3 and single handedly cost his team a ring against the mavs. He quit on Cleveland two straight years and faked that elbow injury (whatever happened to that?) Michael just has so many crazy moments, shots, highlights, and most of all he was larger than life. Every person on planet earth adored him and still does today. He was a global icon who changed the entire NBA forever. When Lebron does that maybe we can have a discussion.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I'll respond in one post to all of the ill informed responses by people who couldn't pick say Nate Thurmond or Bob Lanier out of a lineup (if either were at a playing are at any point during the past twenty years nobody would gush over Shaq and the press (who for the most part have the attention span of a gnat) would be speaking of Thurmond or Lanier as likely the greatest center ever.

Yes, compare their builds all you want, Wilt was considerably stronger than Howard.

Russell never dominated Wilt. Russell himself said as much (at least a thousand times). What Russell did was figure out how to make some thing (different, depending on the night) difficult enough that his team (which was loaded with Hall of Fame players) would end up beating Wilt's team.

Russell also was basically the same size as someone who has played a considerable amount of center (especially early in his career) this past decade (Stoudamire), and was barely an inch shorter than likely the last true, complete center to play this game (Olajuwan).

The game hasn't evolved into better defense, it has devolved to players who only know ho to play one-on-one and want to make as many ESPN top ten plays as possible.

During the heyday of Jordan's career the best rebounders in the game were 6' 4 1/2" Charles Barley, 6'8" Michael Cage, 6'71/4" Charles Oakley and 6'7" Dennis Rodman . I'm convinced that players have gotten much bigger and better than they were in the 60's and 70's (and therefore someone like Russell could not have played if he were born 25 years later than he was).

After seeing some of the people who have passed for big men over the past couple of decades (Mahorn, Eaton, Ostertag, Muresan) I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of the improvement of athleticism in centers over the decades is delusional. Wilt and Russell were true athletes. Wilt was the national high school champ in the high jump. Both Wilt and Russell ran track in college (and either could go from offensive baseline to defensive baseline and back to offense again quicker than Shaq could make it from one end of the court the other).

Jordan was an alltime great player. That was never questioned (and I opened my first post in this thread by pointing that out). Additionally, from about a decade before he hit the NBA forward there have been more quality athletes at a wing (shooting guard/small forward) position than there ever had been. What did make Jordan great wasn't that he could put up a ton of points and jump out of the building, there were plenty of players in the NBA (primarily Dominique) who could do those things nearly as good (or at times as good) as Jordan. It was the little things, things that too many players neglected (playing defense, worrying more about the win than personal stats, understanding the team concept) that Jordan always worked at that set him apart from his contemporaries.

 

[mauconnfan]

Good call on the likes of Thurmond and Big Bob.......Hell Big Red Cowens would give Dwight Howard fits.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

After seeing some of the people who have passed for big men over the past couple of decades (Mahorn, Eaton, Ostertag, Muresan) I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of the improvement of athleticism in centers over the decades is delusional.

I'm trying to think of a more ridiculous straw man but I'm not having any luck. I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of Mark Eaton, Greg Ostertag and George Muresan when they're trying to prove a point about anything NBA-related is delusional.

All I'll say about Lebron is that he is completely unlike any player that's come before him. A 6-8, 250 pound truck that can play all five positions, can guard all five positions and would have been dominant in any era (no offense to the traditionalists who think that he couldn't handle Bob Cousy). If you like the game of basketball you like watching this kid play. What he's doing right now is pretty remarkable.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Comparing players across so many decades is always a stupid exercise. If you took any player from 40-50 years ago and brought them here to play in the NBA, they'd more than likely be completely and totally physically outmatched. It's no knock against the player, but the advances that have been made in nutrition, strength training, endurance training, etc. are huge. Now, if you took that person and they grew up today, it becomes a more apples to apples comparison.

Just as a little story about this. One of my friends was a strength training student at UConn and one of the professors in that program used to work with the Penn St. football team before he came over. He told the class that whenever Paterno was in the weight room (this is when he was essentially a figurehead and nothing else), everyone had to do one set to fail for whatever exercise they were doing, because that is what he believed was best. Anyone who has ever so much as played a HS sport in the last couple decades knows how incredibly ridiculous that is, so they'd pretend to work out until he left the room, at which point they'd go back to their real workouts.

So no, outside of maybe a handful of people, I don't think you'd find someone who could immediately jump 50 years into the future and be anywhere close to the player they were. I'd also just like to point out that the US population alone has nearly doubled in the past 50 years, to make no mention of the increase in international population and the spread of basketball, along with the SIGNIFICANT increase in earning potential as an NBA player to draw more potential players. The NBA players in decades past were the big fish in a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH smaller pool.

 

[TheChamps990411]

By your own criteria Bill Russell is best.

Titles yes. individual accolades and dominance no.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Comparing players across so many decades is always a stupid exercise. If you took any player from 40-50 years ago and brought them here to play in the NBA, they'd more than likely be completely and totally physically outmatched. It's no knock against the player, but the advances that have been made in nutrition, strength training, endurance training, etc. are huge. Now, if you took that person and they grew up today, it becomes a more apples to apples comparison.

Just as a little story about this. One of my friends was a strength training student at UConn and one of the professors in that program used to work with the Penn St. football team before he came over. He told the class that whenever Paterno was in the weight room (this is when he was essentially a figurehead and nothing else), everyone had to do one set to fail for whatever exercise they were doing, because that is what he believed was best. Anyone who has ever so much as played a HS sport in the last couple decades knows how incredibly ridiculous that is, so they'd pretend to work out until he left the room, at which point they'd go back to their real workouts.

So no, outside of maybe a handful of people, I don't think you'd find someone who could immediately jump 50 years into the future and be anywhere close to the player they were. I'd also just like to point out that the US population alone has nearly doubled in the past 50 years, to make no mention of the increase in international population and the spread of basketball, along with the SIGNIFICANT increase in earning potential as an NBA player to draw more potential players. The NBA players in decades past were the big fish in a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH smaller pool.

So your telling me that if you took kareem,oscar,wilt or even elgin at the peak of their ability they would not be among the best players in the nba today?

23 pts 6 rbs 2 blks are kareems numbers at the age of 38 in the mid 80`s with some pretty athletic players in the league by then. imho you take a 25 year old kareem and put him in the league today he would avg 30 ppg 12 rbs easily. at 7`2 260 with his skill level there isnt a center who could guard him in this league right now. dwight howard could problably give him some trouble because of his awesome athleticism but kareem was just to skilled and would take howard to the shed.
i agree with your point to some extent but there were some guys who would have been great players in any era. would wilt average 50 points in todays nba? of course not. could he put up 25/15 a night? absolutely.

 

[TheChamps990411]

And they are checking baseball players for juice? Look in Dwight's locker.

And Wilt was a WORLD-CLASS athlete, incredibly strong and fast. How many guys to you know with 20k notches?

good point but dwights a .

 

[Huskies4ever]

Jordan said what he did because he's more threatened by LeBron. Not that I think LeBron's as good as MJ, or ever will be, but Kobe's not in the same galaxy as MJ, LeBron is. The "5 to 1" argument is incredibly lazy - I understand that's how athletes are defined in modern day America, but if LeBron played with Shaq when he was in his prime, that team would go about 80-2 and the universe would probably explode from the pure dominance. Conversely, I'm convinced Kobe would hover around the .500 mark with the group in Cleveland LeBron worked with for so many years.

There is no comparison - LeBron is, and always has been, the far better overall player. Better passer, better rebounder, better defender, much more efficient scorer.

Don't agree with the "5 to 1" argument being lazy. It's what we use to bash those delusional Cuse fans on the head with.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

So your telling me that if you took kareem,oscar,wilt or even elgin at the peak of their ability they would not be among the best players in the nba today?

23 pts 6 rbs 2 blks are kareems numbers at the age of 38 in the mid 80`s with some pretty athletic players in the league by then. imho you take a 25 year old kareem and put him in the league today he would avg 30 ppg 12 rbs easily. at 7`2 260 with his skill level there isnt a center who could guard him in this league right now. dwight howard could problably give him some trouble because of his awesome athleticism but kareem was just to skilled and would take howard to the shed.
i agree with your point to some extent but there were some guys who would have been great players in any era. would wilt average 50 points in todays nba? of course not. could he put up 25/15 a night? absolutely.

You're just making the other side of an unprovable argument. But I have to say the idea that Kareem would "easily" average 30 a night today made me laugh. I swear some of you must actually think that they put together NBA rosters in 2013 by scouting the And-1 tour.

 

[TheChamps990411]

You're just making the other side of an unprovable argument. But I have to say the idea that Kareem would "easily" average 30 a night today made me laugh. I swear some of you must actually think that they put together NBA rosters in 2013 by scouting the And-1 tour.

its unprovable because its JUST MY OPINION. i truly believe it but if others choose to believe otherwise thats fine. my point was that there are some players who played 30,40 or even 50 years ago who could play in todays league and do very well.

 

[mauconnfan]

its unprovable because its JUST MY OPINION. i truly believe it but if others choose to believe otherwise thats fine. my point was that there are some players who played 30,40 or even 50 years ago who could play in todays league and do very well.

I'm just wondering who would stop Kareem? Keep searching there is no answer.........25/30 it is BigErn, there were better, tougher centers back then than there are now and he got his points. Not sure why any of these centers don't have "sky hooks" any more?? Not talented enough scorers that's why........there's been a major donut in the NBA for a while with very few teams flaunting true centers and even if they do, good centers!!

 

[tzznandrew]

Kareem absolutely averages 30 in his prime, playing now. He'd be the best center in the league.

 

[Kitaman]

I could care less who is the better player Lebron or Kobe but I noticed that there are pages of threads here discussing LBJ and MJ while ignoring Kobe. It could be an east coast (or age) thing going on here as even I despise LA. But to ignore one of the greatest players we will see in our lifetime is grossly unfair. There is not much that Lebron or MJ can do that Kobe can't or hasn't done. Kobe in his prime was a very great player, who unfortunately followed MJ and preceded LBJ. Man I hate defending Kobe!

 

[tzznandrew]

I could care less who is the better player Lebron or Kobe but I noticed that there are pages of threads here discussing LBJ and MJ while ignoring Kobe. It could be an east coast (or age) thing going on here as even I despise LA. But to ignore one of the greatest players we will see in our lifetime is grossly unfair. There is not much that Lebron or MJ can do that Kobe can't or hasn't done. Kobe in his prime was a very great player, who unfortunately followed MJ and preceded LBJ. Man I hate defending Kobe!

Haha. It sucks. There are things Kobe can't do that they could. But at his peak (2000-2008-ish), he was always one of the best two or three players.

I think he suffers from two things: one, always being compared to Jordan. He just isn't.

The other is that his competitive nature gets the better of him. He always wants the last shot, and always takes the last shot. And, when the other team goes on a run--he feels the need to stop it himself. I think "selfish" is the wrong word. He just has the confidence in his ability of Jordan, but lacked the confidence or desire to build confidence in his teammates. It drove down his shooting percentage and made him more easily defended.

That said, the guy has 5 rings--the first three (2.5?) were Shaq's, the last few were clearly his (despite his deplorable Game 7 against Boston).

 

[WhereistheDove?]

So your telling me that if you took kareem,oscar,wilt or even elgin at the peak of their ability they would not be among the best players in the nba today?

23 pts 6 rbs 2 blks are kareems numbers at the age of 38 in the mid 80`s with some pretty athletic players in the league by then. imho you take a 25 year old kareem and put him in the league today he would avg 30 ppg 12 rbs easily. at 7`2 260 with his skill level there isnt a center who could guard him in this league right now. dwight howard could problably give him some trouble because of his awesome athleticism but kareem was just to skilled and would take howard to the shed.
i agree with your point to some extent but there were some guys who would have been great players in any era. would wilt average 50 points in todays nba? of course not. could he put up 25/15 a night? absolutely.

I'm not going to argue that there are some players that would have been great in any era, but you're also comparing those guys against players in their own generation. So when you talk about how strong or fast they are, it's held against a lower standard. This is like the Babe Ruth argument. If you took him directly from his prime and put him into today's game, would he be any good? Probably not. The advancements that have been made in training, types of pitches, etc. would probably make him awful. Now, if you took Babe Ruth and he grew up in this era? Maybe a different story. I think it's the same with basketball players. If you took Kareem in his prime or Wilt in his prime and plopped them right into a game today, would they be useful? I don't doubt it. Would they be anywhere near as effective as they were in their time? Probably not. Just look at the physique of the players back then compared to the guys now. It's not a knock on the player, it's just that they played in a time where the understanding of Kinesiology, compared to today, was laughably pathetic.

 

[Excalibur]

Kobe has done things that Jordan hasn't -- like lay eggs in big playoff games . . .

 

[blackbird]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

Lebron, however, is a significantly better athlete than either MJ or Kobe.

The reason why people don't rate Kobe higher, (and he should be considered top 5, easy) is because of his personality. Only recently has he become likeable. And I also think people hate that he proved everyone wrong.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Blackbird I think that's 100% right. Kobe is without a doubt the more skilled player of the two, but lebron is just unmatched in terms of overall athletic ability.

 

[tzznandrew]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

Lebron, however, is a significantly better athlete than either MJ or Kobe.

The reason why people don't rate Kobe higher, (and he should be considered top 5, easy) is because of his personality. Only recently has he become likeable. And I also think people hate that he proved everyone wrong.

I think this is nonsense. LeBron passes better. LeBron shoots a higher percentage (hell, LeBron shoots just as well from 3 as Kobe, and is way better elsewhere). He rebounds better. He defends better than Kobe ever defended. Some of those things are related to his superior athleticism, but shooting and passing are not.

The killer instinct is BS too. Kobe shoots 28% at the end of games--about the league average. LeBron is over 40% (no one is near Jordan, given the amount of shots, at 50%--our boy Ray is at 50%, though, albeit with fewer attempts). And this article was when LeBron started falling apart against Dallas. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan

So I don't really think either of your points are right. That's not to say Kobe isn't an all time great, it's just that he's not as good as you may think (it's just a matter of degree).

LeBron has two playoff games that are all-time performances: 2007 against Detroit and 2012 against Boston. He's had his fair share of stinkers, too. But so has Kobe.

 

[Scoe]

Well Skip Bayless thinks that MJ could beat Lebron today at age 50 lol.

 

[msgordon]

The game hasn't evolved into better defense, it has devolved to players who only know ho to play one-on-one and want to make as many ESPN top ten plays as possible.

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg

theres no way you can watch the NBA today and think this is true. heat, pacers, bulls, knicks, thunder, spurs, clips, grizzlies, nugs are the best teams in the league. how many of those guys 'only know how to play one-on-one'. melo and westbrook are the best examples, but those teams all share the rock and most of them play great team defense. 'stars' get called out for not playing d way more than they used to. transition, rotational and weak-side defense have all evolved due to every single play being broken down and charted.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I think this is nonsense. LeBron passes better. LeBron shoots a higher percentage (hell, LeBron shoots just as well from 3 as Kobe, and is way better elsewhere). He rebounds better. He defends better than Kobe ever defended. Some of those things are related to his superior athleticism, but shooting and passing are not.

The killer instinct is BS too. Kobe shoots 28% at the end of games--about the league average. LeBron is over 40% (no one is near Jordan, given the amount of shots, at 50%--our boy Ray is at 50%, though, albeit with fewer attempts). And this article was when LeBron started falling apart against Dallas. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan

So I don't really think either of your points are right. That's not to say Kobe isn't an all time great, it's just that he's not as good as you may think (it's just a matter of degree).

LeBron has two playoff games that are all-time performances: 2007 against Detroit and 2012 against Boston. He's had his fair share of stinkers, too. But so has Kobe.

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

 

[msgordon]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

kobe has awesome footwork and a more natural looking, prettier jump shot than lebron. that makes his game more aesthetically pleasing to a lot of people, it doesnt make him a better 'pure basketball player'.

 

[Excalibur]

I think at this point LeBron's skills match anything Kobe ever had. He's always been a superior passer anyway. Kobe had better scoring instincts, but LeBron seems to have rounded out his offensive skill set.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I think at this point LeBron's skills match anything Kobe ever had. He's always been a superior passer anyway. Kobe had better scoring instincts, but LeBron seems to have rounded out his offensive skill set.

I disagree completely. Kobe's post game and ability to create space to get a shot is just plain superior to lebron. Now the argument can certainly be made that he only developed those skills because he's no longer the athlete he once was (and that lebron could do the same down the road). Lebron has rounded out his game incredibly well but almost everything is still predicated on being able to get to the basket at will with his size and speed.

 

[msgordon]

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

i know what youre saying, but i think this is a silly way of looking at it. every basketball players game is related to their size, strength and speed. you could argue any player in the league would be better or worse with a different body. theres plenty of d2 players with more 'skill' than dwight howard, but who cares?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

i know what youre saying, but i think this is a silly way of looking at it. every basketball players game is related to their size, strength and speed. you could argue any player in the league would be better or worse with a different body. theres plenty of d2 players with more 'skill' than dwight howard, but who cares?

Because that is the entire conversation that has been going on. Lebron is better, Kobe is more skilled. I'm not trying to take anything away from lebron (he still has an incredible skill set on both ends of the court), but IMO he's better purely because of his freakish size and athleticism. I think we can start to have a much better conversation down the road when lebron starts to lose his speed and has to develop more like Kobe has.

 

[tzznandrew]

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

Kobe might have some passing skills. They're not in LeBron's league. Also, LeBron has a higher career scoring average. Do you remember who he played with in Cleveland? And yet, he 7 assists there compared to Kobe's 4.7. Until the last three years, Kobe has, by and large, had far superior teammates. And LeBron was asked to be a primary scorer--and scored more on average, and more efficiently, than Kobe did while averaging more assists.

I just don't see how you make your arguments here. Obviously there's a part that is related to his size. But he shoots just as well from the perimeter as Kobe, so the point is moot.