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Lebron vs. Kobe
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By your own criteria Bill Russell is best.
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Do you not consider a 6'11 guy with a 40" vertical "world class"? An Olympic, NBA-elite player is not world class?
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Wilt was stronger than Dwight? Uh, I'm calling bulls**t on that.
vs.
Chamberlain got absolutely dominated by a guy who was four inches shorter than him (Russell). Considering the Dwights of the world are on another planet athletically, I think it's safe to say Wilt would be nowhere near as effective if he played today.
(Heck, I think LeBron could do a pretty good job defending Wilt 1-on-1.)
Chamberlain never got dominated by Russell, the Cs always whooped on the 76ers but from a stats perspective Wilt always tted on Russell head to head. Wilt would absolutely school Dwight, let alone Bron, Wilt was a ridiculous athlete that not even the majority of today's Cs could hang with. If this board let us post multiple vids in one post I would upload a bunch of youtube vids but here's one to start from a great channel.
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another vid talking about Wilt's strength...and Wilt was well over 300lbs by the end of his playing career, not the guy in that pic
Wilt was stronger than Dwight? Uh, I'm calling bulls**t on that.
vs.
Chamberlain got absolutely dominated by a guy who was four inches shorter than him (Russell). Considering the Dwights of the world are on another planet athletically, I think it's safe to say Wilt would be nowhere near as effective if he played today.
(Heck, I think LeBron could do a pretty good job defending Wilt 1-on-1.)
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Yea man, Wilt was a beast, no question. But you do understand that if Shaq were playing against a bunch of 6'8 guys who were rail thin, it would be the same story, right?
With that being said, those videos are awesome. He was so long and strong. I'll never forget playing as Wilt in NBA Live 2004(?). Matching him up against Shaq-Diesel was amazing in video game world.
And look at his stats on basketball reference, hilarious. Averaging 50 pts 25 rebounds lol
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Yea agreed about the comp, but Wilt would stack up against any C in any era, especially someone like Dwight, which is what I was responding to. Dwight in the 80s and 90s against those greats would be Kevin Willis, Wilt would give his ass 50, easily.
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Wilt was sooooo much better than Dwight Howard it's laughable!!!!
..............he'd have his lunch and dessert.
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I think that might be Wilt Chamberlain. Olympic athlete in other sports, so good they had to change rules to deal with him, etc. etc.
But you're main point: LeBron is a physical freak is entirely right. Jordan was too, but LeBron is perhaps moreso due to his size.
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I think that the whole watered-down thing is a little overrated when compared with the sixties and seventies. There weren't as many athletes playing basketball in the sixties--teams like the Celtics, and players like Chamberlain, Baylor, and Robertson helped bring people into basketball. By the 80s, there was a talent saturation, and then the NBA over-expanded, and it took until the mid-00s for the talent level to catch back up. But even in the 90s, it's not as if one great player could win a title. Jordan needed Pippen, and Pippen was damn good. I think people underrate how good he was historically.
As for Russell--he's a great winner. Undeniably the leader of the greatest basketball dynasty. If you were drafting a team to win a title, Russell would be your center. But he benefitted from insanely talented teams.
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The 60's and 70's they played the game like it should have been played on both ends and there were less teams, more talented teams mostly top heavy no doubt. The 80's began the saturation and the NBA's idea to create the KINGs and the guys they needed to market....with that the refereeing became biased and everything with it and has since. Not to say that Michael or LeBron aren't the greatest or the best no matter when they played but things in the NBA will never be the same to the traditionalists. It's okay that people like the new brand but it's not for me. Hasn't been the same since Larry and Magic and the players now have them to thank!!
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Some things need to be kept in mind. First, Lebron is undeniably great right now. But he’s being compared to the greatest athlete of all time, and possibly the person that mastered his craft to a greater extent than anyone ever has. Until recently, Lebon’s game was predicated almost entirely on speed and power. Would he really be as dominant with rules the way they used to be? It’s impossible to say, but you have to imagine that his game would be negatively affected by all the hand checking that went on. Can you imagine what MJ would be able to do in today’s league, when they practically roll a red carpet down en route to the hoop? He got to the hole all game long and finished with guys grabbing, shoving, elbowing, and throwing him to the floor.
Second, the league may have been watered down in the 90’s, but look at it today. A third of the teams today purposely suck for years. They draft one and doners and young kids, and let them play through their struggles in hopes of reaching their potential. I’m looking at you Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Magic, Cavs, Kings, Raptors and previously Warriors, Sixers, Bucks. Should Brandon Knight and Tyreke Evans really be starting PG’s in the NBA??? The entire strategy of these teams is literally to suck for years and hope it works out. I mean come on..
Additionally, to the poster who said the East sucked when MJ played. Look at it today! The only team that even has a chance of giving the Heat a series is a team whose best player is a decently efficient volume scorer who doesn’t pass or play a lick of defense. And their second best player comes off the bench and is an even less efficient volume scorer who also doesn’t pass or play defense. Other than that the East is utter garbage. Lebron is playing the all star game tonight with half of the other 4 starters from his own team!
Look at Andre, who is my favorite player in the league. We all saw his complete lack of offensive game last year, and he has been dominant in stretches in the NBA this year. Its just the way the rules are and the game is set up. Would Andre even be playing in the 90’s this year. Highly unlikely. Jordan changed the game and made all of this happen. Theres no big men anymore and athleticism and potential are much much higher priorities than skills or ability now.
With that said, Lebron will probably end up 2nd when its all said and done. But he really can’t do anything to surpass MJ who never lost in the finals. Lebron is 1 for 3 and single handedly cost his team a ring against the mavs. He quit on Cleveland two straight years and faked that elbow injury (whatever happened to that?) Michael just has so many crazy moments, shots, highlights, and most of all he was larger than life. Every person on planet earth adored him and still does today. He was a global icon who changed the entire NBA forever. When Lebron does that maybe we can have a discussion.
Second, the league may have been watered down in the 90’s, but look at it today. A third of the teams today purposely suck for years. They draft one and doners and young kids, and let them play through their struggles in hopes of reaching their potential. I’m looking at you Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Magic, Cavs, Kings, Raptors and previously Warriors, Sixers, Bucks. Should Brandon Knight and Tyreke Evans really be starting PG’s in the NBA??? The entire strategy of these teams is literally to suck for years and hope it works out. I mean come on..
Additionally, to the poster who said the East sucked when MJ played. Look at it today! The only team that even has a chance of giving the Heat a series is a team whose best player is a decently efficient volume scorer who doesn’t pass or play a lick of defense. And their second best player comes off the bench and is an even less efficient volume scorer who also doesn’t pass or play defense. Other than that the East is utter garbage. Lebron is playing the all star game tonight with half of the other 4 starters from his own team!
Look at Andre, who is my favorite player in the league. We all saw his complete lack of offensive game last year, and he has been dominant in stretches in the NBA this year. Its just the way the rules are and the game is set up. Would Andre even be playing in the 90’s this year. Highly unlikely. Jordan changed the game and made all of this happen. Theres no big men anymore and athleticism and potential are much much higher priorities than skills or ability now.
With that said, Lebron will probably end up 2nd when its all said and done. But he really can’t do anything to surpass MJ who never lost in the finals. Lebron is 1 for 3 and single handedly cost his team a ring against the mavs. He quit on Cleveland two straight years and faked that elbow injury (whatever happened to that?) Michael just has so many crazy moments, shots, highlights, and most of all he was larger than life. Every person on planet earth adored him and still does today. He was a global icon who changed the entire NBA forever. When Lebron does that maybe we can have a discussion.
FfldCntyFan
Texas: Property of UConn Men's Basketball program
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I'll respond in one post to all of the ill informed responses by people who couldn't pick say Nate Thurmond or Bob Lanier out of a lineup (if either were at a playing are at any point during the past twenty years nobody would gush over Shaq and the press (who for the most part have the attention span of a gnat) would be speaking of Thurmond or Lanier as likely the greatest center ever.
Yes, compare their builds all you want, Wilt was considerably stronger than Howard.
Russell never dominated Wilt. Russell himself said as much (at least a thousand times). What Russell did was figure out how to make some thing (different, depending on the night) difficult enough that his team (which was loaded with Hall of Fame players) would end up beating Wilt's team.
Russell also was basically the same size as someone who has played a considerable amount of center (especially early in his career) this past decade (Stoudamire), and was barely an inch shorter than likely the last true, complete center to play this game (Olajuwan).
The game hasn't evolved into better defense, it has devolved to players who only know ho to play one-on-one and want to make as many ESPN top ten plays as possible.
During the heyday of Jordan's career the best rebounders in the game were 6' 4 1/2" Charles Barley, 6'8" Michael Cage, 6'71/4" Charles Oakley and 6'7" Dennis Rodman . I'm convinced that players have gotten much bigger and better than they were in the 60's and 70's (and therefore someone like Russell could not have played if he were born 25 years later than he was).
After seeing some of the people who have passed for big men over the past couple of decades (Mahorn, Eaton, Ostertag, Muresan) I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of the improvement of athleticism in centers over the decades is delusional. Wilt and Russell were true athletes. Wilt was the national high school champ in the high jump. Both Wilt and Russell ran track in college (and either could go from offensive baseline to defensive baseline and back to offense again quicker than Shaq could make it from one end of the court the other).
Jordan was an alltime great player. That was never questioned (and I opened my first post in this thread by pointing that out). Additionally, from about a decade before he hit the NBA forward there have been more quality athletes at a wing (shooting guard/small forward) position than there ever had been. What did make Jordan great wasn't that he could put up a ton of points and jump out of the building, there were plenty of players in the NBA (primarily Dominique) who could do those things nearly as good (or at times as good) as Jordan. It was the little things, things that too many players neglected (playing defense, worrying more about the win than personal stats, understanding the team concept) that Jordan always worked at that set him apart from his contemporaries.
Yes, compare their builds all you want, Wilt was considerably stronger than Howard.
Russell never dominated Wilt. Russell himself said as much (at least a thousand times). What Russell did was figure out how to make some thing (different, depending on the night) difficult enough that his team (which was loaded with Hall of Fame players) would end up beating Wilt's team.
Russell also was basically the same size as someone who has played a considerable amount of center (especially early in his career) this past decade (Stoudamire), and was barely an inch shorter than likely the last true, complete center to play this game (Olajuwan).
The game hasn't evolved into better defense, it has devolved to players who only know ho to play one-on-one and want to make as many ESPN top ten plays as possible.
During the heyday of Jordan's career the best rebounders in the game were 6' 4 1/2" Charles Barley, 6'8" Michael Cage, 6'71/4" Charles Oakley and 6'7" Dennis Rodman . I'm convinced that players have gotten much bigger and better than they were in the 60's and 70's (and therefore someone like Russell could not have played if he were born 25 years later than he was).
After seeing some of the people who have passed for big men over the past couple of decades (Mahorn, Eaton, Ostertag, Muresan) I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of the improvement of athleticism in centers over the decades is delusional. Wilt and Russell were true athletes. Wilt was the national high school champ in the high jump. Both Wilt and Russell ran track in college (and either could go from offensive baseline to defensive baseline and back to offense again quicker than Shaq could make it from one end of the court the other).
Jordan was an alltime great player. That was never questioned (and I opened my first post in this thread by pointing that out). Additionally, from about a decade before he hit the NBA forward there have been more quality athletes at a wing (shooting guard/small forward) position than there ever had been. What did make Jordan great wasn't that he could put up a ton of points and jump out of the building, there were plenty of players in the NBA (primarily Dominique) who could do those things nearly as good (or at times as good) as Jordan. It was the little things, things that too many players neglected (playing defense, worrying more about the win than personal stats, understanding the team concept) that Jordan always worked at that set him apart from his contemporaries.
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Good call on the likes of Thurmond and Big Bob.......Hell Big Red Cowens would give Dwight Howard fits.
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I'm trying to think of a more ridiculous straw man but I'm not having any luck. I can honestly state that anyone who speaks of Mark Eaton, Greg Ostertag and George Muresan when they're trying to prove a point about anything NBA-related is delusional.
All I'll say about Lebron is that he is completely unlike any player that's come before him. A 6-8, 250 pound truck that can play all five positions, can guard all five positions and would have been dominant in any era (no offense to the traditionalists who think that he couldn't handle Bob Cousy). If you like the game of basketball you like watching this kid play. What he's doing right now is pretty remarkable.
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Comparing players across so many decades is always a stupid exercise. If you took any player from 40-50 years ago and brought them here to play in the NBA, they'd more than likely be completely and totally physically outmatched. It's no knock against the player, but the advances that have been made in nutrition, strength training, endurance training, etc. are huge. Now, if you took that person and they grew up today, it becomes a more apples to apples comparison.
Just as a little story about this. One of my friends was a strength training student at UConn and one of the professors in that program used to work with the Penn St. football team before he came over. He told the class that whenever Paterno was in the weight room (this is when he was essentially a figurehead and nothing else), everyone had to do one set to fail for whatever exercise they were doing, because that is what he believed was best. Anyone who has ever so much as played a HS sport in the last couple decades knows how incredibly ridiculous that is, so they'd pretend to work out until he left the room, at which point they'd go back to their real workouts.
So no, outside of maybe a handful of people, I don't think you'd find someone who could immediately jump 50 years into the future and be anywhere close to the player they were. I'd also just like to point out that the US population alone has nearly doubled in the past 50 years, to make no mention of the increase in international population and the spread of basketball, along with the SIGNIFICANT increase in earning potential as an NBA player to draw more potential players. The NBA players in decades past were the big fish in a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH smaller pool.
Just as a little story about this. One of my friends was a strength training student at UConn and one of the professors in that program used to work with the Penn St. football team before he came over. He told the class that whenever Paterno was in the weight room (this is when he was essentially a figurehead and nothing else), everyone had to do one set to fail for whatever exercise they were doing, because that is what he believed was best. Anyone who has ever so much as played a HS sport in the last couple decades knows how incredibly ridiculous that is, so they'd pretend to work out until he left the room, at which point they'd go back to their real workouts.
So no, outside of maybe a handful of people, I don't think you'd find someone who could immediately jump 50 years into the future and be anywhere close to the player they were. I'd also just like to point out that the US population alone has nearly doubled in the past 50 years, to make no mention of the increase in international population and the spread of basketball, along with the SIGNIFICANT increase in earning potential as an NBA player to draw more potential players. The NBA players in decades past were the big fish in a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH smaller pool.
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Titles yes. individual accolades and dominance no.
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So your telling me that if you took kareem,oscar,wilt or even elgin at the peak of their ability they would not be among the best players in the nba today?
23 pts 6 rbs 2 blks are kareems numbers at the age of 38 in the mid 80`s with some pretty athletic players in the league by then. imho you take a 25 year old kareem and put him in the league today he would avg 30 ppg 12 rbs easily. at 7`2 260 with his skill level there isnt a center who could guard him in this league right now. dwight howard could problably give him some trouble because of his awesome athleticism but kareem was just to skilled and would take howard to the shed.
i agree with your point to some extent but there were some guys who would have been great players in any era. would wilt average 50 points in todays nba? of course not. could he put up 25/15 a night? absolutely.
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good point but dwights a .
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Don't agree with the "5 to 1" argument being lazy. It's what we use to bash those delusional Cuse fans on the head with.
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You're just making the other side of an unprovable argument. But I have to say the idea that Kareem would "easily" average 30 a night today made me laugh. I swear some of you must actually think that they put together NBA rosters in 2013 by scouting the And-1 tour.
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its unprovable because its JUST MY OPINION. i truly believe it but if others choose to believe otherwise thats fine. my point was that there are some players who played 30,40 or even 50 years ago who could play in todays league and do very well.
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I'm just wondering who would stop Kareem? Keep searching there is no answer.........25/30 it is BigErn, there were better, tougher centers back then than there are now and he got his points. Not sure why any of these centers don't have "sky hooks" any more?? Not talented enough scorers that's why........there's been a major donut in the NBA for a while with very few teams flaunting true centers and even if they do, good centers!!
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Kareem absolutely averages 30 in his prime, playing now. He'd be the best center in the league.
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I could care less who is the better player Lebron or Kobe but I noticed that there are pages of threads here discussing LBJ and MJ while ignoring Kobe. It could be an east coast (or age) thing going on here as even I despise LA. But to ignore one of the greatest players we will see in our lifetime is grossly unfair. There is not much that Lebron or MJ can do that Kobe can't or hasn't done. Kobe in his prime was a very great player, who unfortunately followed MJ and preceded LBJ. Man I hate defending Kobe!
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