Lebron vs. Kobe

[tzznandrew]

I could care less who is the better player Lebron or Kobe but I noticed that there are pages of threads here discussing LBJ and MJ while ignoring Kobe. It could be an east coast (or age) thing going on here as even I despise LA. But to ignore one of the greatest players we will see in our lifetime is grossly unfair. There is not much that Lebron or MJ can do that Kobe can't or hasn't done. Kobe in his prime was a very great player, who unfortunately followed MJ and preceded LBJ. Man I hate defending Kobe!

Haha. It sucks. There are things Kobe can't do that they could. But at his peak (2000-2008-ish), he was always one of the best two or three players.

I think he suffers from two things: one, always being compared to Jordan. He just isn't.

The other is that his competitive nature gets the better of him. He always wants the last shot, and always takes the last shot. And, when the other team goes on a run--he feels the need to stop it himself. I think "selfish" is the wrong word. He just has the confidence in his ability of Jordan, but lacked the confidence or desire to build confidence in his teammates. It drove down his shooting percentage and made him more easily defended.

That said, the guy has 5 rings--the first three (2.5?) were Shaq's, the last few were clearly his (despite his deplorable Game 7 against Boston).

 

[WhereistheDove?]

So your telling me that if you took kareem,oscar,wilt or even elgin at the peak of their ability they would not be among the best players in the nba today?

23 pts 6 rbs 2 blks are kareems numbers at the age of 38 in the mid 80`s with some pretty athletic players in the league by then. imho you take a 25 year old kareem and put him in the league today he would avg 30 ppg 12 rbs easily. at 7`2 260 with his skill level there isnt a center who could guard him in this league right now. dwight howard could problably give him some trouble because of his awesome athleticism but kareem was just to skilled and would take howard to the shed.
i agree with your point to some extent but there were some guys who would have been great players in any era. would wilt average 50 points in todays nba? of course not. could he put up 25/15 a night? absolutely.

I'm not going to argue that there are some players that would have been great in any era, but you're also comparing those guys against players in their own generation. So when you talk about how strong or fast they are, it's held against a lower standard. This is like the Babe Ruth argument. If you took him directly from his prime and put him into today's game, would he be any good? Probably not. The advancements that have been made in training, types of pitches, etc. would probably make him awful. Now, if you took Babe Ruth and he grew up in this era? Maybe a different story. I think it's the same with basketball players. If you took Kareem in his prime or Wilt in his prime and plopped them right into a game today, would they be useful? I don't doubt it. Would they be anywhere near as effective as they were in their time? Probably not. Just look at the physique of the players back then compared to the guys now. It's not a knock on the player, it's just that they played in a time where the understanding of Kinesiology, compared to today, was laughably pathetic.

 

[Excalibur]

Kobe has done things that Jordan hasn't -- like lay eggs in big playoff games . . .

 

[blackbird]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

Lebron, however, is a significantly better athlete than either MJ or Kobe.

The reason why people don't rate Kobe higher, (and he should be considered top 5, easy) is because of his personality. Only recently has he become likeable. And I also think people hate that he proved everyone wrong.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Blackbird I think that's 100% right. Kobe is without a doubt the more skilled player of the two, but lebron is just unmatched in terms of overall athletic ability.

 

[tzznandrew]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

Lebron, however, is a significantly better athlete than either MJ or Kobe.

The reason why people don't rate Kobe higher, (and he should be considered top 5, easy) is because of his personality. Only recently has he become likeable. And I also think people hate that he proved everyone wrong.

I think this is nonsense. LeBron passes better. LeBron shoots a higher percentage (hell, LeBron shoots just as well from 3 as Kobe, and is way better elsewhere). He rebounds better. He defends better than Kobe ever defended. Some of those things are related to his superior athleticism, but shooting and passing are not.

The killer instinct is BS too. Kobe shoots 28% at the end of games--about the league average. LeBron is over 40% (no one is near Jordan, given the amount of shots, at 50%--our boy Ray is at 50%, though, albeit with fewer attempts). And this article was when LeBron started falling apart against Dallas. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan

So I don't really think either of your points are right. That's not to say Kobe isn't an all time great, it's just that he's not as good as you may think (it's just a matter of degree).

LeBron has two playoff games that are all-time performances: 2007 against Detroit and 2012 against Boston. He's had his fair share of stinkers, too. But so has Kobe.

 

[Scoe]

Well Skip Bayless thinks that MJ could beat Lebron today at age 50 lol.

 

[msgordon]

The game hasn't evolved into better defense, it has devolved to players who only know ho to play one-on-one and want to make as many ESPN top ten plays as possible.

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg

theres no way you can watch the NBA today and think this is true. heat, pacers, bulls, knicks, thunder, spurs, clips, grizzlies, nugs are the best teams in the league. how many of those guys 'only know how to play one-on-one'. melo and westbrook are the best examples, but those teams all share the rock and most of them play great team defense. 'stars' get called out for not playing d way more than they used to. transition, rotational and weak-side defense have all evolved due to every single play being broken down and charted.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I think this is nonsense. LeBron passes better. LeBron shoots a higher percentage (hell, LeBron shoots just as well from 3 as Kobe, and is way better elsewhere). He rebounds better. He defends better than Kobe ever defended. Some of those things are related to his superior athleticism, but shooting and passing are not.

The killer instinct is BS too. Kobe shoots 28% at the end of games--about the league average. LeBron is over 40% (no one is near Jordan, given the amount of shots, at 50%--our boy Ray is at 50%, though, albeit with fewer attempts). And this article was when LeBron started falling apart against Dallas. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan

So I don't really think either of your points are right. That's not to say Kobe isn't an all time great, it's just that he's not as good as you may think (it's just a matter of degree).

LeBron has two playoff games that are all-time performances: 2007 against Detroit and 2012 against Boston. He's had his fair share of stinkers, too. But so has Kobe.

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

 

[msgordon]

In Kobe's prime, he was a better pure basketball player than Lebron. His skills far exceed Lebron's. And he's got a killer instinct that Lebron lacks.

kobe has awesome footwork and a more natural looking, prettier jump shot than lebron. that makes his game more aesthetically pleasing to a lot of people, it doesnt make him a better 'pure basketball player'.

 

[Excalibur]

I think at this point LeBron's skills match anything Kobe ever had. He's always been a superior passer anyway. Kobe had better scoring instincts, but LeBron seems to have rounded out his offensive skill set.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I think at this point LeBron's skills match anything Kobe ever had. He's always been a superior passer anyway. Kobe had better scoring instincts, but LeBron seems to have rounded out his offensive skill set.

I disagree completely. Kobe's post game and ability to create space to get a shot is just plain superior to lebron. Now the argument can certainly be made that he only developed those skills because he's no longer the athlete he once was (and that lebron could do the same down the road). Lebron has rounded out his game incredibly well but almost everything is still predicated on being able to get to the basket at will with his size and speed.

 

[msgordon]

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

i know what youre saying, but i think this is a silly way of looking at it. every basketball players game is related to their size, strength and speed. you could argue any player in the league would be better or worse with a different body. theres plenty of d2 players with more 'skill' than dwight howard, but who cares?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

i know what youre saying, but i think this is a silly way of looking at it. every basketball players game is related to their size, strength and speed. you could argue any player in the league would be better or worse with a different body. theres plenty of d2 players with more 'skill' than dwight howard, but who cares?

Because that is the entire conversation that has been going on. Lebron is better, Kobe is more skilled. I'm not trying to take anything away from lebron (he still has an incredible skill set on both ends of the court), but IMO he's better purely because of his freakish size and athleticism. I think we can start to have a much better conversation down the road when lebron starts to lose his speed and has to develop more like Kobe has.

 

[tzznandrew]

Couple points. Kobe's passing has been phenomenal now that he has begun to focus on distributing. I think you're confusing skill with the role he played that asked him to score. Defense has a ton to do with his athletic ability. And do you honestly believe that lebron's shooting pct doesn't have anything to do with his size, strength, and speed? How many easy layups or dunks a game does he get because be is just the far superior athlete to anyone on the court? Lebron is a better player than Kobe now. If Kobe's skills were put into lebron's body, I think he'd be better than lebron.

Kobe might have some passing skills. They're not in LeBron's league. Also, LeBron has a higher career scoring average. Do you remember who he played with in Cleveland? And yet, he 7 assists there compared to Kobe's 4.7. Until the last three years, Kobe has, by and large, had far superior teammates. And LeBron was asked to be a primary scorer--and scored more on average, and more efficiently, than Kobe did while averaging more assists.

I just don't see how you make your arguments here. Obviously there's a part that is related to his size. But he shoots just as well from the perimeter as Kobe, so the point is moot.

 

[tzznandrew]

I disagree completely. Kobe's post game and ability to create space to get a shot is just plain superior to lebron. Now the argument can certainly be made that he only developed those skills because he's no longer the athlete he once was (and that lebron could do the same down the road). Lebron has rounded out his game incredibly well but almost everything is still predicated on being able to get to the basket at will with his size and speed.

LeBron has a perfectly good post game. It's gotten better for the last three years and he creates shots just fine. His game has not been entirely predicated at running at the hoop in a couple of years. What he did to Boston (Games 6-7) and OKC were much greater than that.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

LeBron has a perfectly good post game. It's gotten better for the last three years and he creates shots just fine. His game has not been entirely predicated at running at the hoop in a couple of years. What he did to Boston (Games 6-7) and OKC were much greater than that.

Never said he didn't have good post skills or couldn't create a shot. I said Kobe in those areas is significantly better. In the same way you're saying Kobe has passing skills but lebron is significantly better. I just plain disagree with you on how much his size/speed combo play into this but that is an argument neither of us will ever convince the other on.