Lady Vols - 2012-13

[Bestiarius]

You may not like the question, but it's a valid one. Do people go to Tennessee to be coached by Pat or by the history that Pat created at Tennessee. I think we will find out starting with the 2013 class. Personally, I think they still get their share of top recruits.

I agree that they will get some top recruits, just fewer. And, unless the new coach is spectacular, the numbers will diminish rapidly. UCLA after Wooden is an example.

I think most would agree that many players went to TN mainly to experience Pat, and that the University itself had little to do with it. I’d give more credit to the school as an attraction if it had high academic standards like Stanford, a great location close to a major city, a beautiful campus, or a location near major recreation areas, etc. Coaches like Pat, Geno and a few others create such an advantage for their schools that all other considerations fall to the wayside for the top recruits. Losing an elite coach gives competing schools a better shot at acquiring the best players. It doesn’t take much to start the slide to oblivion.

 

[BigO]

I agree that they will get some top recruits, just fewer. And, unless the new coach is spectacular, the numbers will diminish rapidly. UCLA after Wooden is an example.

I think most would agree that many players went to TN mainly to experience Pat, and that the University itself had little to do with it. I’d give more credit to the school as an attraction if it had high academic standards like Stanford, a great location close to a major city, a beautiful campus, or a location near major recreation areas, etc. Coaches like Pat, Geno and a few others create such an advantage for their schools that all other considerations fall to the wayside for the top recruits. Losing an elite coach gives competing schools a better shot at acquiring the best players. It doesn’t take much to start the slide to oblivion.

yeah living in the smokey mountains, and playing for the most successful WCBB program in history, with the highest attendance numbers, would be such a drag on anyone. what was i thinking

on that note, nite people

 

[Bayareahusky]

TN does have a good history set by PHS, and the attendance is such great support..... I just don't see the crem de la crem flocking to Knoxville to play for Holly. I would think that HSAAs would prefer playing for Muffet, or Tara, or heck, Matthew or jeff or of course Geno. Or JPM at Duke. TN will get good players, the great will prob go elsewhere..... JMHO

 

[Bestiarius]

TN does have a good history set by PHS, and the attendance is such great support..... I just don't see the crem de la crem flocking to Knoxville to play for Holly. I would think that HSAAs would prefer playing for Muffet, or Tara, or heck, Matthew or jeff or of course Geno. Or JPM at Duke. TN will get good players, the great will prob go elsewhere..... JMHO

No doubt there is great long term support. Uconn has great support too. How many schools televise every game. One reason for TNs good attendance is that games are blacked out in the Knoxville area. My guess is that the number of people that see Uconn games is higher than TN.

 

[Bayareahusky]

games blacked out in Xville, and the ticket prices are significantly lower arent they?

 

[BigO]

games blacked out in Xville, and the ticket prices are significantly lower arent they?

games blacked out? LMAO as someone who lives in Knoxville, that is 100% incorrect. yet another invented fact to explain away uconn's lower attendance numbers. let's just keep it real .....more people like to go to TN's games than anyone else. that's the way it has been for years

 

[doggydaddy]

games blacked out? LMAO as someone who lives in Knoxville, that is 100% incorrect. yet another invented fact to explain away uconn's lower attendance numbers. let's just keep it real .....more people like to go to TN's games than anyone else. that's the way it has been for years

Yeah, I scratched my head on that one too. Never heard they were blacked out.

Tennessee fans do a great job supporting their team. No doubt about that.

 

[alexrgct]

Attendance, facilities, and televised games help. There's also enough regional talent that Tennessee could field competitive teams just on kids from Tennessee, Georgia, and the Carolinas.

But ultimately, kids want to win. They want to be prepared for the professional leagues. They want to play in Final Fours. For 30 years, Tennessee was a place where you could count on those things happening. Not believe- take to the bank. Losing that card will absolutely cause some kids to look elsewhere, and given the cavernous divide between the very best players and everyone else, a subset of kids looking elsewhere could easily cost Tennessee the next Chamique, Tamika, or Candace.

 

[doggydaddy]

Attendance, facilities, and televised games help. There's also enough regional talent that Tennessee could field competitive teams just on kids from Tennessee, Georgia, and the Carolinas.

But ultimately, kids want to win. They want to be prepared for the professional leagues. They want to play in Final Fours. For 30 years, Tennessee was a place where you could count on those things happening. Not believe- take to the bank. Losing that card will absolutely cause some kids to look elsewhere, and given the cavernous divide between the very best players and everyone else, a subset of kids looking elsewhere could easily cost Tennessee the next Chamique, Tamika, or Candace.

Exactly. Is the draw to go to Tennessee the fans, arena, TV? Sure, that is part of it. But it has been Pat and the allure of playing for a HOF coach and the benefits of that.

We will see in the next few years the impact of Pat no longer coaching to the recruiting situation. Holly has zero wins, zero NCAA wins, and zero championships.

 

[connboy77]

Exactly. Is the draw to go to Tennessee the fans, arena, TV? Sure, that is part of it. But it has been Pat and the allure of playing for a HOF coach and the benefits of that.

We will see in the next few years the impact of Pat no longer coaching to the recruiting situation. Holly has zero wins, zero NCAA wins, and zero championships.

+1

 

[connboy77]

In order for Tennessee to reach the final four and possibly win a National Championship they need superior talent. Even then its not a guarantee that this will happen because Holly is not close to the coach Pat use to be. Where a 10 loss Tennessee Team coached by Pat Summitt won an NC it is highly unlikely that Holly would be able to do the same. The future will define just how good a coach Holly will be.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Big O - Calm down. The blackout comment was a guess.... I heaped praise on your program for developing such a great following. Now that you have qualified my incorrect guess, now I know. I would never make excuses for a UConn program that has been exemplary in so many ways, albeit without credit from the south.

 

[alexrgct]

In order for Tennessee to reach the final four and possibly win a National Championship they need superior talent. Even then its not a guarantee that this will happen because Holly is not close to the coach Pat use to be. Where a 10 loss Tennessee Team coached by Pat Summitt won an NC it is highly unlikely that Holly would be able to do the same. The future will define just how good a coach Holly will be.

I would say that Pat's #1 strength as a coach, speaking strictly in a basketball sense, was her ability to lead and instill strength and confidence in her players, even in the face of disappointment throughout the course of a season. It's this reason that Tennessee on many occasions out-performed their seed in the NCAA tournament.

I have a hard time believing that this quality of Pat's is something that anyone, even a long-time assistant, can readily replicate, no more than is Geno's maniacal obsession with what he sees on the court at all times being a perfect reflection of what he's envisioning in his head.

 

[speedoo]

I would say that Pat's #1 strength as a coach, speaking strictly in a basketball sense, was her ability to lead and instill strength and confidence in her players, even in the face of disappointment throughout the course of a season. It's this reason that Tennessee on many occasions out-performed their seed in the NCAA tournament.

I have a hard time believing that this quality of Pat's is something that anyone, even a long-time assistant, can readily replicate, no more than is Geno's maniacal obsession with what he sees on the court at all times being a perfect reflection of what he's envisioning in his head.

I think you have got this exactly right. Plenty of evidence is available to support this, including the way both coaches talk about the game, and the way their teams have played and succeeded over many years.

 

[Bestiarius]

Big O - Calm down. The blackout comment was a guess.... I heaped praise on your program for developing such a great following. Now that you have qualified my incorrect guess, now I know. I would never make excuses for a UConn program that has been exemplary in so many ways, albeit without credit from the south.

On more than one occasion, in checking TV schedules for TN games, I've seen the notation, "Subject to Blackout" in the xville area.

 

[Replicant]

They lose their legendary coach, 4 seniors drafted by the WNBA and finish the season ranked #7, having been defeated in the Elite 8.

Next year I see them falling in the year end rankings to somewhere in the mid teens (say #14), with a 50/50 chance of making the Sweet 16 based solely on the program's tradition, pride and current roster's talent.

 

[itsasport]

I would say that Pat's #1 strength as a coach, speaking strictly in a basketball sense, was her ability to lead and instill strength and confidence in her players, even in the face of disappointment throughout the course of a season. It's this reason that Tennessee on many occasions out-performed their seed in the NCAA tournament.

I have a hard time believing that this quality of Pat's is something that anyone, even a long-time assistant, can readily replicate, no more than is Geno's maniacal obsession with what he sees on the court at all times being a perfect reflection of what he's envisioning in his head.

Is it true that Tenn has "on many occasions out-performed their seed in the NCAA tournament." It seems to me to have been the reverse, at least lately.

I don't see how Tenn could have done otherwise than upgrade the assistant coach and let Pat stay: but, it is the worst possible situation for the programs success.

I read that Holly has a four year contract. I see Tenn dropping rapidly because recruiting will suffer and a lack of good coaching will diminish the success of the program with the players they do get.

Tenn needs a coach with the gravitas to recruit and skills to produce a well-coached team. I don't think that any top level coach will go to Tenn with Pat on the scene. Perhaps, they have tried, without success. But, again, I don't see how Tenn could have gone against Pat's apparent wish to stay.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Itsasport - Great post. I totally agree with the thought on Pat's shadow..... whereas it is good, I think, to some degree, to have Pat around as a figurehead and an influence on those who come through the program, your point is well taken.... i.e. who in their right mind would want to take control of a program where you don't have full control.... I know Pat said that she is there to help, and will stay out of the hair of HD, but come on if she is at practices, which she said she will be..... is the de facto head coach still not PS?

From a few standpoints, I think TN might have been better to "suck it up" and go to a bolder hire. They still could have drawn on the reputation of TN and Pat's work there, absorb the natural growing pains, and forge a clear path with their projected goal. With the way they went, it seems that they took the path of least resistence, and are showcasing themselves as same program we saw last season. Of course they had to do that, as Pat decided to stay, but program growth, IMHO, will be more measured.

Replicant, as for this coming year, TN does indeed lose their coach, but as said, the situation this coming yr. seems no different from last year. Pat won't be seated on bench during games, but in row behind bench instead..... all else seems the same.... the 4 seniors drafted by WNBA couldn't get anything substantive done in their 4 yrs there.... their leaving I see as forward growth for the program. The coaching and the seniors were 2 of the issues pejoratively affecting team last year. That 5 senior lineup they morphed into was a terrible idea.... and based I think on the perceived success of one start..... on senior day, no less. I think I have that right. It was not a lineup based on chemistry.

If I was a TN fan, I would have hoped for a full colonic, but it looks like more of the same as last year. Having said all that, I do believe that TN - even with its thin roster and HC Holly, will hang out in the bottom of the top 10. WCBB still does not have the overall depth to exclude a team with good to above average ability players.

 

[Bestiarius]

I don't see how Tenn could have done otherwise than upgrade the assistant coach and let Pat stay: but, it is the worst possible situation for the programs success.

I read that Holly has a four year contract. I see Tenn dropping rapidly because recruiting will suffer and a lack of good coaching will diminish the success of the program with the players they do get.

So true, because to TN fans, Pat has transcended the status of coach & mentor. She is not a mortal being and is without a flaw - perfect and must be protected and deified. That fan attitude would make it impossible for anyone to survive other than a loyal follower. It's beyond logic.

One example of the environment that must be dealt with is the following. There is currently a thread on their bulletin board mentioning that there is a poll at cbssports.com asking who is the better coach, Pat Summitt or Mike Kyzyzewski, and that Mike was leading. That started a campaign to get the vote out for Pat. When it was found that multiple votes were not allowed by the CBS site, one of the members advised that if folks cleared their their computer's cache/history, they would be able to re-vote multiple times. There was no consideration given to the possibility that this activity might be considered unethical behavior. The ironic, and to me humorous part of this was that the individual's tag line reads a Geno jabbing: "What we got we got the hard and honest way...."

 

[speedoo]

So true, because to TN fans, Pat has transcended the status of coach & mentor. She is not a mortal being and is without a flaw - perfect and must be protected and deified. That fan attitude would make it impossible for anyone to survive other than a loyal follower. It's beyond logic.

One example of the environment that must be dealt with is the following. There is currently a thread on their bulletin board mentioning that there is a poll at cbssports.com asking who is the better coach, Pat Summitt or Mike Kyzyzewski, and that Mike was leading. That started a campaign to get the vote out for Pat. When it was found that multiple votes were not allowed by the CBS site, one of the members advised that if folks cleared their their computer's cache/history, they would be able to re-vote multiple times. There was no consideration given to the possibility that this activity might be considered unethical behavior. The ironic, and to me humorous part of this was that the individual's tag line reads a Geno jabbing: "What we got we got the hard and honest way...."

One of the characteristics that many there share is blatant hypocrisy. Your example is one of many that can be seen there every hour.

 

[Replicant]

Replicant, as for this coming year, TN does indeed lose their coach, but as said, the situation this coming yr. seems no different from last year. Pat won't be seated on bench during games, but in row behind bench instead..... all else seems the same.... the 4 seniors drafted by WNBA couldn't get anything substantive done in their 4 yrs there.... their leaving I see as forward growth for the program. The coaching and the seniors were 2 of the issues pejoratively affecting team last year. That 5 senior lineup they morphed into was a terrible idea.... and based I think on the perceived success of one start..... on senior day, no less. I think I have that right. It was not a lineup based on chemistry.

I see next year differently than what you're projecting. I don't anticipate Pat sitting behind the bench as you do, I see her sitting in the AD's box at best. First, Pat wouldn't do anything to inhibit or undermine Holly's ownership and authority over the team. Sadly, I have been alarmed at the pace of Pat's decline since her diagnosis was first announced and there's no telling what next week, month or year will look like for her.

The move to HC Emeritus was the appropriate and logical way for TN to honor Pat, reward Holly for her long and loyal service and to maintain continuity for the program through this transitional period.

In her original press release Pat stated "I want to help ensure the stability of the program going forward. I would like to emphasize that I fully intend to continue working as head coach emeritus, mentoring and teaching life skills to our players...". I take that to mean she'll attempt to be an iconic and inspirational presence on campus for as long as practical, much as Coach Wooden was long after his retirement on the UCLA campus. What she "intends" to do at this moment and what her disease will allow her to do several months from now may be two entirely different things. And her self-stated function will be on "mentoring and teaching life skills", not bball.

As far as those seniors going to the WNBA, my reference wasn't to make a statement about their relative value to TN's year, but to acknowledge that the team was losing over 36% of it's personnel in the form of senior experience. That would hurt any team, as I expect it will ND next year as well. Though one could easily argue that Stricklen going #2 and Johnson going #4 runs contrary to your assessment of their value and contributions.

I wish Holly well, but I still maintain that Nicki Caldwell will be brought back to lead the program after this transitional phase. Now if Holly gets the program back into elite status (FF caliber) in short order, that changes the calculus completely.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Yes the TN fan base as a whole I have always thought to be beyond reproach and believing nothing but their own story. How long have they harped on Maya's ESPN tour setup, but nary a mention of Pat's pictured meeting with Meighan Simmons under the stands at a recruiting visit when only incidental contact was allowed. Both were termed "secondary" violations. Plenty of TN yap about the abhorrant behavior of Griner leaving the bench during the latter stretches of last month's UT - BU NCAA game, but never a mention of Stricklen's disparaging taunting of a prone Sims during the same incident. I think TN fans more than any other group are extremely self righteous.... like "we do everything the correct and honest way and everyone else is a step behind".... at least that is the impression I get.

Replicant your points are well taken.... Pat deserves to work into a role which is to her choosing and maintains her dignity.... I recall from her news conference I think .... the fact that she will still be at the practices and still be yelling at the kids..... if I were in charge there, this would still seem to be a "co-coaching" setup..... Hopefully the overall situation there will work out for them.

 

[stamfordhusky]

games blacked out in Xville, and the ticket prices are significantly lower arent they?

Yes, Tennessee ticket prices are signficantly lower. UConn makes a lot more money on ticket sales - although I'd rather see lower prices and all sell-outs.

 

[stamfordhusky]

i can tell you one thing...the recruits that back pat AND tn after this will be legendary and have the support of thousands. i am sure pat will be recruiting her tail off now that she has even more time.​

​

My understanding is that her new position precludes her from off-campus contacts, including phone calls. How can she do as you suggest?

- - - - -

Your understanding is completely correct. BigO obviously knows nothing of NCAA regulations - or else he thinks Tennessee will ignore them.

 

[BigO]

So true, because to TN fans, Pat has transcended the status of coach & mentor. She is not a mortal being and is without a flaw - perfect and must be protected and deified. That fan attitude would make it impossible for anyone to survive other than a loyal follower. It's beyond logic.

One example of the environment that must be dealt with is the following. There is currently a thread on their bulletin board mentioning that there is a poll at cbssports.com asking who is the better coach, Pat Summitt or Mike Kyzyzewski, and that Mike was leading. That started a campaign to get the vote out for Pat. When it was found that multiple votes were not allowed by the CBS site, one of the members advised that if folks cleared their their computer's cache/history, they would be able to re-vote multiple times. There was no consideration given to the possibility that this activity might be considered unethical behavior. The ironic, and to me humorous part of this was that the individual's tag line reads a Geno jabbing: "What we got we got the hard and honest way...."

"the environment that must be dealt with" give me a freakin break. i guess the same could be said when maya moore wins a poll as the best player ever, right? so petty....and funny that you spend time picking at posters on the summitt