Kudos for Bobby

[Dogdeacon]

I'll admit I didn't realize how bad the clubhouse would get even with Bobby V in there, for that he has to go just so everyone can start fresh and get rid of so much negativity.
He does not have to go for his tactical decisions however.
Keep in mind a few things..
1) He didn't want Bard to start, Bard wanted to start and the front office went along with it. Bobby looked good here.
2) He wanted Ciriaco to start the year at SS rather than Aviles. Bobby looked pretty good here, not that Ciriaco is a huge advantage over aviles, but he is a slight advantage probably.
3) He had no problems taking Youkilis's time and giving it to Middlebrooks. When Youk came back from injuries Bobby got his wish and got to keep Middlebrooks who had a very nice year. Bobby looked pretty good here even though Youk went on to be prettygood with Chicago.

So yes Bobby needs to go, but let's not pretend those other managers would have done wonders with this team this year. At least Bobby helped us get a top 6 or 7 pick in the draft and a chance to sign free agents without losing draft picks!

I think those are all correct, only quibble is Bobby V sabotaged Youklis before the season even started and the result was the Sox got .25 on the dollar when they were forced to trade him. I couldn't really comment on his game managing because I hardly watched any games. Public relations/interactions wise he was an unmitigated disaster. Good news if you are the front office is their plan kinda worked in that this year was likely to be terrible and by hiring Bobby they selected the one guy who maybe could make lemonades outta lemons or otherwise would be their fall guy.

What has to happen now is after he's fired Bobby tells the candid truth about getting hired because LL wanted him and other various front office missteps. That could be the one effective thing he could accomplish for Red Sox fans via his otherwise failed tenure.

 

[The Viking]

True, the Youkilis thing he put his foot way up his mouth. But Youkilis really wasn't playing well when they finally pulled the trigger which is a bigger reason than any that they got .25 on the dollar. that and the fact they wanted to play Middlebrooks fulltime and keep Adrian out of RF. He must have played 20 games out there.

When 30 GM's know he's on the block and the best you can do is Zach Stewart, that tells you what you need to know about Youk's current production.

 

[doggydaddy]

So yes Bobby needs to go, but let's not pretend those other managers would have done wonders with this team this year.

You are right. We don't know how these managers would have done with this team. But that is not what you said.

Go ahead and list them. We'll see how they do and how Bobby does this year.

They all did better but one.

 

[The Viking]

You are right. We don't know how these managers would have done with this team. But that is not what you said.



They all did better but one.

No doubt I was wrong. Thought Bobby would finish with a lot more wins than he did. Misjudged that.

Now if you're going to pretend the win total is more Bobby's fault than the fact the team had serious underperformances issues from its main players as well as serious number of injuries, well....

 

[doggydaddy]

No doubt I was wrong. Thought Bobby would finish with a lot more wins than he did. Misjudged that.

Now if you're going to pretend the win total is more Bobby's fault than the fact the team had serious underperformances issues from its main players as well as serious number of injuries, well....

Where did I say that??? There is plenty of blame to be shared for how sucky this team was.

Underperformance issues? Arod ring a bell? Martin for most of the year? Nova?

Injuries? Gardner and Rivera lost before the season started. Pettitte missed a huge chunk of the season. Arod, as sucky as he has been, was hurt for weeks. As was Texeira. Pineda was expected to be in the rotation. Sabathia had a turn on the DL.

Now, not saying that the Sox didn't have more underacheivers and more injuries than the Yanks. But the Yanks overcame theirs, not just to win 90+ games, but to possibly win the AL east and have the best record in the A.L.

 

[Deepster]

Bobby V. gave you the best Mets season you've had in a quarter-century? Why the hate?

The guy was a smarmy jerk and an overrated manager. All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring and can't wait for him to be on the next Fung Wah out of town the second the 27th out gets rung up tonight.

 

[Danzz]

I think those are all correct, only quibble is Bobby V sabotaged Youklis before the season even started and the result was the Sox got .25 on the dollar when they were forced to trade him. I couldn't really comment on his game managing because I hardly watched any games. Public relations/interactions wise he was an unmitigated disaster. Good news if you are the front office is their plan kinda worked in that this year was likely to be terrible and by hiring Bobby they selected the one guy who maybe could make lemonades outta lemons or otherwise would be their fall guy.

What has to happen now is after he's fired Bobby tells the candid truth about getting hired because LL wanted him and other various front office missteps. That could be the one effective thing he could accomplish for Red Sox fans via his otherwise failed tenure.

What has to happen when Bobby is fired (and he will be) is to let the new manager pick his own staff. If you don't like who the new manger would bring aboard then hire someone else. If Cherington is going to be the GM the choice of a new manager should be mostly his. If the Sox ownership doesn't trust Cherington enough to do it then fire him. It seems to me that the Sox owners tie the hands of their managers.
I'm not sure if Beckett and Lester had 20 more wins that Bobby would be back. IMO he is an outstanding game manager but the guy is just unlikeable. Nothing breeds contempt like losing.

 

[The Viking]

Where did I say that??? There is plenty of blame to be shared for how sucky this team was.

Underperformance issues? Arod ring a bell? Martin for most of the year? Nova?

Injuries? Gardner and Rivera lost before the season started. Pettitte missed a huge chunk of the season. Arod, as sucky as he has been, was hurt for weeks. As was Texeira. Pineda was expected to be in the rotation. Sabathia had a turn on the DL.

Now, not saying that the Sox didn't have more underacheivers and more injuries than the Yanks. But the Yanks overcame theirs, not just to win 90+ games, but to possibly win the AL east and have the best record in the A.L.

The Yankees didn't have their top 3 starters suck and didn't have their best player from last year miss half the year only to return and suck (Ellsbury). The list of injured players and/or underperformers would encompass virtually the entire team. Bobby had his issues but I don't see how you can translate them into having a serious impact on their W/L record this year.

 

[The Viking]

The guy was a smarmy jerk and an overrated manager. All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring and can't wait for him to be on the next Fung Wah out of town the second the 27th out gets rung up tonight.

Are you saying that if the Mets had just a "good" manager in 1999 and 2000 they would have won back to back world series? I would think Bobby taking those teams to the NLCS and WS were pretty good achievements.

I see how well they've done since he's been gone, so maybe you're right.

 

[doggydaddy]

The Yankees didn't have their top 3 starters suck and didn't have their best player from last year miss half the year only to return and suck (Ellsbury). The list of injured players and/or underperformers would encompass virtually the entire team. Bobby had his issues but I don't see how you can translate them into having a serious impact on their W/L record this year.

I can't believe you are defending this guy. He didn't have a serious impact on their W/L record? Wow.

 

[mauconnfan]

The Yankees didn't have their top 3 starters suck and didn't have their best player from last year miss half the year only to return and suck (Ellsbury). The list of injured players and/or underperformers would encompass virtually the entire team. Bobby had his issues but I don't see how you can translate them into having a serious impact on their W/L record this year.

No you're right they didn't suck but how does that matter? Instead CC missed multiple starts and their prized trade for Pineda didn't work out to well did it? And if Ellsbury is your best player you're in trouble anyway.......career year for sure and will not be replicated.....always hurt and throws like a sissy (can't believe Jeter didn't try to score on Tex's fly the other night he can't get it to home from 200 feet)..........Yanks had as many injuries but Cashman had a better bench and was prepared, your rookie not so good although some played well early, they are minor leaguers for a reason. Good news is you got rid of some baggage and now there's more to go I believe........

Now go have a hot dog at fenway......oh sorry it's closed again!!

 

[Deepster]

Are you saying that if the Mets had just a "good" manager in 1999 and 2000 they would have won back to back world series? I would think Bobby taking those teams to the NLCS and WS were pretty good achievements.

I see how well they've done since he's been gone, so maybe you're right.

Are you saying he's anything more than a "good" manager?

Seeing how well he's done this year with your team, maybe you're right.

 

[ZenConn]

Interesting that Epstein isn't even mentioned in 5 page Red Sox thread.

 

[Dove]

He gone!

 

[tzznandrew]

He gone!

Least shocking development in a while.

 

[Dogdeacon]

All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring.

I think this is inaccurate. Some Sox fans talked themselves into Valentine, majority took a wait-and-see or show me approach, plenty were deadset against and a scarce few were in favor or thought it was a great move.

Then, before they broke from spring training (April 1 or so) Bobby announced he'd do a weekly radio show with Michael Kay in New York. From that moment which was before he even got here, he lost Boston more and more every day.

Lastly either the guy is a jerk and needs to be ridden out of town on a rail OR he's a wonderful manager and person and how dare we cast aspertions on him. Its schadenfreude enough that Bobby V's tenure and the Red Sox season was the worst possible scenario.

 

[Danzz]

The Sox have bigger problems than a manager. They gave away one of the best middle of the lineup hitters in baseball to get rid of Beckett and Crawford. The problem with that is that the middle of the Sox lineup was already weak when Ortiz and Middlebrooks went down. Once Gonzalez was traded the #3 hitter was Ross at times.; not exactly what you need to score runs when the starters are giving up runs. Whatever you think of Gonzalez there is no player available to replace his bat at 1B. They had a bunch of 1B but traded all of them away.
This team is in shambles and unless they sign some players or some of the current players (especially pitchers) have a comeback season they will be fighting to get out of the cellar next year.The playoffs aren't even a long shot.
They are weak at the corners on offense: Middlebrooks, Loney, Nava/Kalish, Ross. You are looking at about 50-60 HRs from this group when you need about 85+. This on a team that plays in Fenway with a pitching staff that gives up runs in bunches.
Dubront is a #5 starter but on his team he will be #3 behind Bucholtz and Lester. Even if a pitcher like Miller starts and goes .500, they are much weaker than NY, TB, and Baltimore.
I admit to being old school. I like power on the corners and defense up the middle. I could live with Inglesias at shortstop but not with this team.
A new manager isn't going to change any of this.

 

[Dove]

I think this is inaccurate. Some Sox fans talked themselves into Valentine, majority took a wait-and-see or show me approach, plenty were deadset against and a scarce few were in favor or thought it was a great move.

Then, before they broke from spring training (April 1 or so) Bobby announced he'd do a weekly radio show with Michael Kay in New York. From that moment which was before he even got here, he lost Boston more and more every day.

Lastly either the guy is a jerk and needs to be ridden out of town on a rail OR he's a wonderful manager and person and how dare we cast aspertions on him. Its schadenfreude enough that Bobby V's tenure and the Red Sox season was the worst possible scenario.

My brother in law is a life long fan and when BV was named manager he was contemplating a new favorite team. HATED the hire.

 

[Waquoit]

All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring and can't wait for him to be on the next Fung Wah out of town the second the 27th out gets rung up tonight.

It's called rooting for your team. You are hoping for the best. I remember you being the biggest Omar Minaya booster around and he was awful. And I'm not seeing the Fung Wah here. The general consensus seems to be he had to go but the situation isn't his fault.

 

[Waquoit]

Interesting that Epstein isn't even mentioned in 5 page Red Sox thread.

Because he won 2 World Series. It's the owners, not him. He didn't want Crawford.

 

[Deepster]

It's called rooting for your team. You are hoping for the best. I remember you being the biggest Omar Minaya booster around and he was awful. And I'm not seeing the Fung Wah here. The general consensus seems to be he had to go but the situation isn't his fault.

I didn't turn on Minaya. I still think that, in the shape he took that team over, he did a good job of making them compete again.

And, FYI, Epstein really didn't "win" the 2 WS titles. Duquette did more for those than he did.

 

[8893]

It's called rooting for your team. You are hoping for the best.

Where is Whaquit and what have you done to him?

 

[60'sfan]

I didn't turn on Minaya. I still think that, in the shape he took that team over, he did a good job of making them compete again.

And, FYI, Epstein really didn't "win" the 2 WS titles. Duquette did more for those than he did.

I can't argue that Duquette had assembled a pretty good team before Theo showed up. In fact, Theo was not even the first or second choice as GM. But he did contribute a lot to the World Series and we Sox fans will always appreciate that. He brought in Keith Foulke and Curt Schilling before that season began and when Nomar began to be a problem, he engineering a great trade in which the Sox picked up Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz for Nomar and someone named Matt Murton. He also picked up Dave Roberts for Henri Stanley (remember him). Without those players, we could have waited a few more years for our first World Championship.

For sure Theo lost his way in the last few years but many of his bad choices became bad in retrospect.

 

[Deadrody]

I can't argue that Duquette had assembled a pretty good team before Theo showed up. In fact, Theo was not even the first or second choice as GM. But he did contribute a lot to the World Series and we Sox fans will always appreciate that. He brought in Keith Foulke and Curt Schilling before that season began and when Nomar began to be a problem, he engineering a great trade in which the Sox picked up Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz for Nomar and someone named Matt Murton. He also picked up Dave Roberts for Henri Stanley (remember him). Without those players, we could have waited a few more years for our first World Championship.

For sure Theo lost his way in the last few years but many of his bad choices became bad in retrospect.

I think you may be omitting a few guys. How about Ortiz, Millar, Mueller, Arroyo, and perhaps most importantly, Francona. Some of them he put in place in 2003, but the difference in the roster between when Theo was hired in 2002 and when they won the series in 2004 is pretty sizable.

Certainly Duquette is responsible for two of the biggest players on the team - Ramirez and Martinez, but outside of them, there wasn't all that much indispensable on the 2002 roster except Varitek, Lowe, and Damon. I'd say the guys listed above, brought in by Theo outweigh these 5 already in place over many years by Duquette.

 

[Waquoit]

And, FYI, Epstein really didn't "win" the 2 WS titles. Duquette did more for those than he did.

Nah, that's just denial. The Nomar trade was the key. That took balls and it paid off.