John A.: UConn - Duke: It's more than a game

[cferraro04]

an

I disagree with some of your player development comparisons as proving that only the UConn staff develops their players to the best of their abilities. For example, comparing the development of Tina Charles to Kia Vaughn. Tina was the national player of the year coming out of high school. Kia was not. Kia's freshman season at RU, she helped lead them to a 16-0 Big East regular season record and the Big East Championship (both regular season and Tournament). RU won the Big East Tournament Championship in her sophomore season too and Kia helped her team reach the NCAA Championship game. Her junior season RU lost in the Elite 8 to UConn, in a tough game that RU led at the half. Kia did not have a great senior season, but still was selected 8th overall in the 2009 WNBA draft. She also played well against UConn, even in her senior year. RU lost those games, but Kia outplayed Tina in both games. I don't dispute that Tina has accomplished more in her career, but based on how she played prior to coming to UConn, she should have. I don't believe Kia would have become a better player than Tina just by playing for Geno rather than Vivian.
I also don't think Elizabeth William's development has suffered by her attending Duke. I don't think it is fair to compare anyone to Stefanie Dolson. She lost so much weight and transformed her body after her sophomore season. I'm not sure how much of that was due to coaching versus personal desire to be the best she could be. Maybe it was due to Geno's influence, but you really need to have a certain mindset to be able to achieve the results she did. Elizabeth didn't need to make such a drastic change to play at her best.

Anyone, watching how hard Kia Vaughn had to work in the post just to get a touch from guards who were content to go one on one had to feel for the kid. It was obvious that she wasn't getting the kind of coaching she needed...Vivian should have impressed upon her guards how important it was for Kia to get touches in the post...if she did, she didn't do it enough or her players weren't cooperating...either way...it would not have happened that way at UConn. Also trust me, if you think that Geno and his staff did not have influence in encouraging Stefanie to lose weight then maybe you should ask Liz Sherwood.

 

[Zorro]

Liz might have BEEN Stefani, if she had really wanted to. Hard to say. She certainly had a lot of talent that never got developed. Which could also be said of Walker.

 

[Jonathan Husky]

I think Geno will make a big decision base on his relationship with McCallie. If they are friendly, he might want to help her hold her job by not getting blown out at home (better to lose in March). If she is a pain then he will unload. A big lost to Uconn plus ND (?) and UK(?) might bring Gail G. back again (unless there are other top coaches waiting. So yes, for Duke it matters a lot- who are the players that suit-up for Uconn. And what was the score. A solid loss with 2 key players on the bench or in minor supporting role, isn't good. A close game with us- but a loss, will give them room to spin it as they would like. A bfor them with KML, MT and a big in foul trouble will have talk about the 'monkey off their back' (here is that unfortunate phrase again!).

Nonsense!!

 

[Bigpetunia]

I am no one to question Geno, but I'd be very reluctant to play KML or Tuck. Duke may not be the best first game back to test your sea legs. Secondly, if they don't play and Duke should win, they couldn't say they beat the Huskies full strength. That means nothing now, but could in the Final Four.

I could be totally off base and maybe the young horses just need to run. Either way, I am excited.

I think you make a very good point. This is a much bigger game for Duke than it is for us. If we are at full strength, we are clearly much better. We won't be at full strength even if KML and Morgan are back....they will both need a few games to shake off the rust. I certainly don't think Geno will press too hard to keep them on the floor for lots of minutes. We tend to place too much emphasis on the idea of an undefeated season. All that counts is what happens in March, and, barring further injury (ies), they won't be able to touch us then. We probably win next week in either case, but no big deal for us either way.

 

[ScarlettB]

I don't disagree that Tina was developed to her full potential. I just feel that Kia may have been too. Liz Sherwood is an example of a kid who was motivated to transfer where Stefanie was motivated to transform herself.
How about comparing the development of two less talented players. Compare the career and development of Heather Zurich and Tahirah Williams. Williams was the 2005 NJ player of the year. Heather was 2005 NJ all state first team. Heather developed into a starter for RU, while Tahirah was a sparingly used reserve. Tahirah stayed at UConn for four years despite that, while others with the same ability might have transferred to other programs where they could get more playing time. I would argue that Heather ended up the better developed basketball player. If Heather had gone to UConn, she would probably have had the type of career that Williams had.

What I am really trying to point out is that player development depends on many factors, number one being the personality and drive of the recruit themselves. I would never dispute that Geno and the UConn staff are great at developing talent, but I feel there are other programs that do a good job and I don't agree with the premise that the UConn staff could better develop every player.

As for Coach P's recruiting pitch, she does have a national championship appearance to her credit, a lot of talent at Duke and the quest to get Duke it's first title. Duke is also better academically than UConn, no matter how you spin it, so a kid choosing Duke or Stanford over UConn may be because the entire package at those schools suit their goals better.

 

[doggydaddy]

I am no one to question Geno, but I'd be very reluctant to play KML or Tuck. Duke may not be the best first game back to test your sea legs. Secondly, if they don't play and Duke should win, they couldn't say they beat the Huskies full strength. That means nothing now, but could in the Final Four.

I could be totally off base and maybe the young horses just need to run. Either way, I am excited.

No offense, but I think you are way off on this.

KML had no issues with her legs so I expect her to be up to speed quickly. They are getting a full week of practice. I don't understand why Duke would be a bad game t come back. The adrenaline will be pumping and they will work through any fatigue. If they don't look ready, Geno won't play them as much.

 

[doggydaddy]

I don't disagree that Tina was developed to her full potential. I just feel that Kia may have been too. Liz Sherwood is an example of a kid who was motivated to transfer where Stefanie was motivated to transform herself.
How about comparing the development of two less talented players. Compare the career and development of Heather Zurich and Tahirah Williams. Williams was the 2005 NJ player of the year. Heather was 2005 NJ all state first team. Heather developed into a starter for RU, while Tahirah was a sparingly used reserve. Tahirah stayed at UConn for four years despite that, while others with the same ability might have transferred to other programs where they could get more playing time. I would argue that Heather ended up the better developed basketball player. If Heather had gone to UConn, she would probably have had the type of career that Williams had.

What I am really trying to point out is that player development depends on many factors, number one being the personality and drive of the recruit themselves. I would never dispute that Geno and the UConn staff are great at developing talent, but I feel there are other programs that do a good job and I don't agree with the premise that the UConn staff could better develop every player.

As for Coach P's recruiting pitch, she does have a national championship appearance to her credit, a lot of talent at Duke and the quest to get Duke it's first title. Duke is also better academically than UConn, no matter how you spin it, so a kid choosing Duke or Stanford over UConn may be because the entire package at those schools suit their goals better.

Why would Zurich have a worse career if she went to Uconn? Makes no sense. Her and Williams were very different players.

I guess it's semantics, but while I agree that Uconn would developed every player better than where they went, I would submit that Uconn is better at it.

 

[bschwartz]

No offense, but I think you are way off on this.

KML had no issues with her legs so I expect her to be up to speed quickly. They are getting a full week of practice. I don't understand why Duke would be a bad game t come back. The adrenaline will be pumping and they will work through any fatigue. If they don't look ready, Geno won't play them as much.

A disagreement is never an offense to me. And yes, I am not in practice. Perhaps this is a bit conservative, I would just set the bar high in terms of being ready to play. Maybe they are there and that would be great. We'll know in a week.

 

[Paul1969]

Ridiculous. McCallie is in no danger of losing her job anytime soon. Concerning Coach G, you'll see Beyonce and I sitting courtside at a Charlotte Bobcat Hornet game before you'll see Gail G. roam the sidelines again at Cameron

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

 

[semper]

There is no argument in my mind about how to be the very best you can be: either 1) go to UCONN; or 2) go to UCONN. The only coach who gives me pause is Muffet, and she comes out of the same world as Geno. And the way to "make" history, is be the very best you can be. Every time we lose a prized recruit, we watch her and many of us speculate about how she would have developed had she chosen Geno, CD, and crew. Samarie was a recent example. EDD, used to happen all the time. There have been exceptions, and I won't mention names, as I am wary of ever saying anything that might start some sort of tirade, esp. in this off week. But in general, there is simply no contest, at least since I started watching back in the D years. If you want to be transformed, go to UCONN.

 

[winlots]

Winlots, thanks for the kind words.

I think we aren't that far apart.

When Joanna says to a recruit, "you can make history HERE", there's definitely an implied "You won't be making history there, you'll just be another cog in the machine". I read your response as challenging that inference, because you believe (as I believe) that one can come to UConn and write history.

By definition, we will never again have a recruit who will be part of the school's first National Championship. But that doesn't mean there's no history to be written. A number of schools have an NC, but only one can have the most. In the near future, we may be able to challenge, not just women's basketball records, but all basketball records. Every player that is a part of every National Champion is a part of the history record, but within that history, there already is a special place for UConn, and a recruit can help make that place even more special. A recruit coming in can help build a legacy that will literally last forever.

But while I think there is a strong counter to Joannne's message, I think it is unfair to assume that a recruit would see it as bogus. It is correct to say that bringing a National Championship to Duke would be a special place in Duke history, and not one that could be replicated at UConn. The key is whether that unique opportunity is viewed as better than or not as good as the special place in the history of all of basketball that is possible at UConn.

I think you and i both agree that the potential place in history at UConn is a better option, but I fully understand Joanne's pitch, and, if I were in her position, I'd make it too.

PHIL: I don't disagree with anything you say in this good post. (( I've done a whole lot of recruiting myself, though only tangentially with regard to athletes, so when you read some of my stuff, understand that I'm prone to doing a little recruiting on here .......or "counter recruiting" as the case may be when another school is making a pitch that shows up here ))

 

[ScarlettB]

Why would Zurich have a worse career if she went to Uconn? Makes no sense. Her and Williams were very different players.

I guess it's semantics, but while I agree that Uconn would developed every player better than where they went, I would submit that Uconn is better at it.

I don't believe Heather would have ever started or played significant minutes at UConn, just like Williams never played much. At RU she became a starter and an integral part of their Final Four team. She and Williams were similar talent level, playing high school bb in the same state at the same time. I realize they are different players - TW a guard and HZ a forward. I feel Heather got to play more and developed more over her career than Tahirah because she got to play more and was instrumental to her team's success.

 

[doggydaddy]

I don't believe Heather would have ever started or played significant minutes at UConn, just like Williams never played much. At RU she became a starter and an integral part of their Final Four team. She and Williams were similar talent level, playing high school bb in the same state at the same time. I realize they are different players - TW a guard and HZ a forward. I feel Heather got to play more and developed more over her career than Tahirah because she got to play more and was instrumental to her team's success.

But you don't know how much playing time she would have gotten at UConn. You are only guessing.

There is no way to know if your scenario is what would happen. And are you saying that if Williams played at RU she would have had more success?

 

[sofrito]

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

Texas paid her what she was worth and was quite pleased with the result.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Texas paid her what she was worth and was quite pleased with the result.

Where's that darn sarcasm emoticon when you need it!?!!?!

Well played, sofrito, well played...

 

[triaddukefan]

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

If I had the extra money to spare to donate to the cause.... I would have certainly have. But alas... my piggy bank wasnt that full at the time

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Coach P is no colossal failure at Duke - and Coach G was no huge success at Texas. So?

I'll finally decide on Coach G based on her next job, wherever that may be. Coach P has enjoyed moderate success at all schools where she has coached.

Neither of them, it seems to me, excelled at the charisma side of it.

 

[winlots]

Pardon me, but just "Gino" bugs some, "Walters" bugs me. It's [Kara] "Wolters" (because, yes, Kiersten Walters).

Thank you. Carry on.

WALLY: You are correct, of course, and I do know that it is Wolters......typo, brain disconnect, whatever....my error. (To the major point of my post, I think Walters could have made some nice history here too if not for her injury....got off to a wonderful start here.)

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Didn't Coach G say she had to take a break from coaching in leaving Texas? If I was an AD with a high visibility WCBB program I would not take a risk on her. It is hazy, but didn't she jump to Texas because she had sorta used up the "next year" thing at Duke?

 

[Bestiarius]

UConn is truly the land of opportunity. It doesn't matter who you are. If you work, absorb, and get with the program during practices, you will play. A remarkable ability of Geno's is to quickly pick up when a player isn't quite right during a game. That player is instantly out of the game. It doesn't matter if the player is #1 in the nation or a walk on. This quick action instantly right's the ship. Swift decision making gives every player hope. Regardless of your station on the team, if you work, you'll be part of the action.

Regarding development. With few exceptions over the years, I've noticed that everyone on the team is happy. They are always smiling and truly seem to like each other. Happiness stems from within. At some point during their career, the players realize, because of the coaching they receive, they are confident and playing better than their personal expectations. That makes a person feel good about themselves and others. No woman is an island - the key to success and happiness.

 

[msf22b]

With regard the discussion of if/how much the injured Husky's will play, I 'm closer to DD than Bsc.
If they're cleared and practicing to their normal standard, they play.
How much and whether they start is another question.
Geno may feel that the present 5 deserves the start
or, just as likely, he may go back to his opening day lineup.
Remeber that Morgan hasn't started this year, if my memory serves me.
Potentially, a plethora of riches.
In this era of foul issues, I certainly like the possibility of a team 9-deep with scholarship athletes (with a full understanding of Polly's s situ).

 

[msf22b]

There is no argument in my mind about how to be the very best you can be: either 1) go to UCONN; or 2) go to UCONN. The only coach who gives me pause is Muffet, and she comes out of the same world as Geno. And the way to "make" history, is be the very best you can be. Every time we lose a prized recruit, we watch her and many of us speculate about how she would have developed had she chosen Geno, CD, and crew. Samarie was a recent example. EDD, used to happen all the time. There have been exceptions, and I won't mention names, as I am wary of ever saying anything that might start some sort of tirade, esp. in this off week. But in general, there is simply no contest, at least since I started watching back in the D years. If you want to be transformed, go to UCONN.

i don't understand the meaning of your reference to EDD but in thinking of how she would have better had she stayed in UConn, I imagine she would have been a bit fitter/run the floor a little better and certainly played less minutes along with 2 or 3 (4?) National Championships.
But this is a kid w great gifts who spent thousands of hours with some of the best private coaching and trainers learning to create her own shot; something she did remarkably well at UD, often triple teamed and beat up on and in the pros in which I've heard her say that sometimes it's easier.

At the end of the day, her Hall of Fame career will represent her training, perseverance, athletic gifts and developed skills.

It's hard to imagine her being much better.

 

[doggydaddy]

I believe that if KML is playing, she is starting.

 

[VAMike23]

I believe that if KML is playing, she is starting.

I agree and Geno will adjust her minutes based on what he sees out of her. If her touch and timing are still off (rust) then she would see limited minutes.

If the elbow is still not 100% as far as the healing process goes I can't see Geno putting her out there, or Rosemary allowing it.

 

[winlots]

UConn is truly the land of opportunity. It doesn't matter who you are. If you work, absorb, and get with the program during practices, you will play. A remarkable ability of Geno's is to quickly pick up when a player isn't quite right during a game. That player is instantly out of the game. It doesn't matter if the player is #1 in the nation or a walk on. This quick action instantly right's the ship. Swift decision making gives every player hope. Regardless of your station on the team, if you work, you'll be part of the action.

Regarding development. With few exceptions over the years, I've noticed that everyone on the team is happy. They are always smiling and truly seem to like each other. Happiness stems from within. At some point during their career, the players realize, because of the coaching they receive, they are confident and playing better than their personal expectations. That makes a person feel good about themselves and others. No woman is an island - the key to success and happiness.

BEST: in my NSHO, you ARE one of the best of the board.....on my personal "All Star" list. ( I have another list which also starts with an A. )

However, and given that I'm apparently known for provocative posts, I do take issue with one small portion of your good post. I do realize this will lead to pulling of hair and calling of names (not by you, but by The Posse): I heartily disagree with your view that Geno will quickly pull a player who is not "right." Yet you are partly right, because if it is not one of his pets, they are out of there with the first hint of error. But, if it is one of his pets, they may, for example, throw the ball to the band, to shirts of the wrong color, and to the announcers table and still play on.

(This is somewhat less true, on both sides of the pet issue, in the more recent past than it used to be, as he continues to get better and better as a coach, which is to be expected with time and seasoning. About a decade back, I had a list of about 10 or 12 areas in which I thought Coach, and/or his teams, had clear room for improvement. That list has dwindled substantially. In fact, I think the current team might be the most well-coached team he has put on the court.)

 

[semper]

i don't understand the meaning of your reference to EDD but in thinking of how she would have better had she stayed in UConn, I imagine she would have been a bit fitter/run the floor a little better and certainly played less minutes along with 2 or 3 (4?) National Championships.
But this is a kid w great gifts who spent thousands of hours with some of the best private coaching and trainers learning to create her own shot; something she did remarkably well at UD, often triple teamed and beat up on and in the pros in which I've heard her say that sometimes it's easier.

At the end of the day, her Hall of Fame career will represent her training, perseverance, athletic gifts and developed skills.

It's hard to imagine her being much better.

Could be...all I was saying is that there was speculation, and that's because we know how much better most become with UCONN training. And she would have had several NCs with us, and that might have changed her life...but these are all mights, who knows. I was just saying that what Geno and company do for most players' learning and development is incredible. Nothing new...just wish A'ja would come here, just wish it so much!

 

[ScarlettB]

But you don't know how much playing time she would have gotten at UConn. You are only guessing.

There is no way to know if your scenario is what would happen. And are you saying that if Williams played at RU she would have had more success?

Yes I am only guessing and it is just my opinion, but my response was to a poster who speculated that Kia Vaughn and Elizabeth Williams would be better developed if they had gone to UConn. There is no way to prove either scenario. I actually do think Williams would have had a better chance of earning playing time at RU, but maybe she wouldn't have been talented enough to play significant minutes. She certainly wouldn't have started ahead of Cappie or Matee Ajavon, but I think she would have been higher in the rotation at RU than UConn and would have had a better chance to provide a significant contribution to her team. But again, that is just my definition of being more successful. Tahirah may have considered her bb career at UConn successful just because she made the team and enjoyed her experience.

 

[Tonyc]

KML and MTuck are working out and practicing. Barring a reoccurring injury they are getting ready to play against Duke. How much time I think a lot will depend on how big a lead UConn has. I do expect a very large lead much like in the past. My reasoning is Dukes game plan really hasn't changed much from prior years and either has UConns. As good as Duke is and IMO there is a big difference from the number 2 ranked team and the rest, there is also a huge difference between number 1 UConn and Duke and the rest.
Last night I was flipping through the channels and caught the last 14 minutes of the OK Duke game. Duke had some foul trouble and OK really only had one scorer Ellerby. Duke blew a 21 pt lead to win by 9. There was a lot of one on one play by Duke not a real lot of play execution. OK missed a lot of bunnies underneath which might have made the game closer. I like UConn in this one by no less then 13 pts and most likely a lot more barring injuries and foul trouble.

Duke scores a lot of points off turnovers so we need to stop their fast break off misses and we will. Underneath Peters and Williams will have their hands full with our shot blockers and I expect them to go right at us and we will do the same to them. Liston makes a lot of shots so I expect her to have a tuff time finding shots against our defense, and we need to keep the ball out of Dukes guards hands and make other players make plays.

 

[doggydaddy]

Yes I am only guessing and it is just my opinion, but my response was to a poster who speculated that Kia Vaughn and Elizabeth Williams would be better developed if they had gone to UConn. There is no way to prove either scenario. I actually do think Williams would have had a better chance of earning playing time at RU, but maybe she wouldn't have been talented enough to play significant minutes. She certainly wouldn't have started ahead of Cappie or Matee Ajavon, but I think she would have been higher in the rotation at RU than UConn and would have had a better chance to provide a significant contribution to her team. But again, that is just my definition of being more successful. Tahirah may have considered her bb career at UConn successful just because she made the team and enjoyed her experience.

I'm not sure about this premise. But this is what you said earlier.

"I would never dispute that Geno and the UConn staff are great at developing talent, but I feel there are other programs that do a good job and I don't agree with the premise that the UConn staff could better develop every player."

I actually agree with you here. Geno and his staff are great at developing talent. And there are other programs that do a good job. I don't think the UConn staff can better develop EVERY player.

But I think you are missing the point. It's not EVERY player. It's the fact that recruits know if they put the work in, they will develop to their fullest at UConn. That is close to undeniable. Other than injuries derailing a players development, I can't think of one player that UConn didn't develop to their fullest when they put the work in.

It's not that other coaches aren't good at it. UConn is GREAT at it.