John A.: UConn - Duke: It's more than a game

[Icebear]

Scarlett, I do not think that your observations hold up.

 

[Kibitzer]

The recruiting pitch used by Coach "P" and others is practical and yet born of necessity. I think it is analagous to the advice Clarence Darrow (among other great lawyers) is purported to have given to novice practitioners of jurispudence. Something like this:

"If you have the law on your side but not the facts, then argue the law. If, on the other hand, you have the facts in your favor but not the law, then pound away at the facts. And if you have neither the law or the facts, simply pound on the table and yell like hell."
​

Or words to that effect.

 

[Zorro]

Kia's freshman year was better than her senior year. Tina's senior year was orders of magnitude better than her frosh year. I rest my case, which is that the UConn staff develops players better than any other staff (and light years better than the Rutgers staff.)

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Scarlett, I do not think that your observations hold up.

While I don't agree 100% with Scarlett, she raises a few points I would agree with.

Tina Charles was, IMHO, a better player than Kia from the get-go, and Kia did, in fact, play better at Rutgers than she is often given credit for. That said, I will admit, Kia did not respond well to the coaching that she received at Rutgers. This was spoken of several times by coaching staff members and one can blame whomever one wants, Kia or the coaches for the issue. She performed best when Marianne Stanley was on the staff and working with her.

I would also agree that Stephanie Dolson clearly has self-motivated herself (as Scarlett says, possibly with Geno's urging) into remaking herself into a star that I, for one, wouldn't have predicted. The same might have happened with Elizabeth Williams, but it is difficult to know. Certainly, no coach wants a player to be less than their best.

I think the best that can be said is that Geno is an excellent developer of talent. That he is the best in the game is just an arguing point - one really doesn't know how he would do with other players and ultimately one often doesn't know how much coaches have done to develop players they have.

 

[Icebear]

As el Z said, however, Tina's development at UCONN was tremendous. The player who left was vastly more skilled than the one who came. Many places that simply doesn't happen with the most talented players who often settle for being better than others instead of the best they can be. Geno hates to let players cheat their talent.

 

[cferraro04]

an

I disagree with some of your player development comparisons as proving that only the UConn staff develops their players to the best of their abilities. For example, comparing the development of Tina Charles to Kia Vaughn. Tina was the national player of the year coming out of high school. Kia was not. Kia's freshman season at RU, she helped lead them to a 16-0 Big East regular season record and the Big East Championship (both regular season and Tournament). RU won the Big East Tournament Championship in her sophomore season too and Kia helped her team reach the NCAA Championship game. Her junior season RU lost in the Elite 8 to UConn, in a tough game that RU led at the half. Kia did not have a great senior season, but still was selected 8th overall in the 2009 WNBA draft. She also played well against UConn, even in her senior year. RU lost those games, but Kia outplayed Tina in both games. I don't dispute that Tina has accomplished more in her career, but based on how she played prior to coming to UConn, she should have. I don't believe Kia would have become a better player than Tina just by playing for Geno rather than Vivian.
I also don't think Elizabeth William's development has suffered by her attending Duke. I don't think it is fair to compare anyone to Stefanie Dolson. She lost so much weight and transformed her body after her sophomore season. I'm not sure how much of that was due to coaching versus personal desire to be the best she could be. Maybe it was due to Geno's influence, but you really need to have a certain mindset to be able to achieve the results she did. Elizabeth didn't need to make such a drastic change to play at her best.

Anyone, watching how hard Kia Vaughn had to work in the post just to get a touch from guards who were content to go one on one had to feel for the kid. It was obvious that she wasn't getting the kind of coaching she needed...Vivian should have impressed upon her guards how important it was for Kia to get touches in the post...if she did, she didn't do it enough or her players weren't cooperating...either way...it would not have happened that way at UConn. Also trust me, if you think that Geno and his staff did not have influence in encouraging Stefanie to lose weight then maybe you should ask Liz Sherwood.

 

[Zorro]

Liz might have BEEN Stefani, if she had really wanted to. Hard to say. She certainly had a lot of talent that never got developed. Which could also be said of Walker.

 

[Jonathan Husky]

I think Geno will make a big decision base on his relationship with McCallie. If they are friendly, he might want to help her hold her job by not getting blown out at home (better to lose in March). If she is a pain then he will unload. A big lost to Uconn plus ND (?) and UK(?) might bring Gail G. back again (unless there are other top coaches waiting. So yes, for Duke it matters a lot- who are the players that suit-up for Uconn. And what was the score. A solid loss with 2 key players on the bench or in minor supporting role, isn't good. A close game with us- but a loss, will give them room to spin it as they would like. A bfor them with KML, MT and a big in foul trouble will have talk about the 'monkey off their back' (here is that unfortunate phrase again!).

Nonsense!!

 

[Bigpetunia]

I am no one to question Geno, but I'd be very reluctant to play KML or Tuck. Duke may not be the best first game back to test your sea legs. Secondly, if they don't play and Duke should win, they couldn't say they beat the Huskies full strength. That means nothing now, but could in the Final Four.

I could be totally off base and maybe the young horses just need to run. Either way, I am excited.

I think you make a very good point. This is a much bigger game for Duke than it is for us. If we are at full strength, we are clearly much better. We won't be at full strength even if KML and Morgan are back....they will both need a few games to shake off the rust. I certainly don't think Geno will press too hard to keep them on the floor for lots of minutes. We tend to place too much emphasis on the idea of an undefeated season. All that counts is what happens in March, and, barring further injury (ies), they won't be able to touch us then. We probably win next week in either case, but no big deal for us either way.

 

[ScarlettB]

I don't disagree that Tina was developed to her full potential. I just feel that Kia may have been too. Liz Sherwood is an example of a kid who was motivated to transfer where Stefanie was motivated to transform herself.
How about comparing the development of two less talented players. Compare the career and development of Heather Zurich and Tahirah Williams. Williams was the 2005 NJ player of the year. Heather was 2005 NJ all state first team. Heather developed into a starter for RU, while Tahirah was a sparingly used reserve. Tahirah stayed at UConn for four years despite that, while others with the same ability might have transferred to other programs where they could get more playing time. I would argue that Heather ended up the better developed basketball player. If Heather had gone to UConn, she would probably have had the type of career that Williams had.

What I am really trying to point out is that player development depends on many factors, number one being the personality and drive of the recruit themselves. I would never dispute that Geno and the UConn staff are great at developing talent, but I feel there are other programs that do a good job and I don't agree with the premise that the UConn staff could better develop every player.

As for Coach P's recruiting pitch, she does have a national championship appearance to her credit, a lot of talent at Duke and the quest to get Duke it's first title. Duke is also better academically than UConn, no matter how you spin it, so a kid choosing Duke or Stanford over UConn may be because the entire package at those schools suit their goals better.

 

[doggydaddy]

I am no one to question Geno, but I'd be very reluctant to play KML or Tuck. Duke may not be the best first game back to test your sea legs. Secondly, if they don't play and Duke should win, they couldn't say they beat the Huskies full strength. That means nothing now, but could in the Final Four.

I could be totally off base and maybe the young horses just need to run. Either way, I am excited.

No offense, but I think you are way off on this.

KML had no issues with her legs so I expect her to be up to speed quickly. They are getting a full week of practice. I don't understand why Duke would be a bad game t come back. The adrenaline will be pumping and they will work through any fatigue. If they don't look ready, Geno won't play them as much.

 

[doggydaddy]

I don't disagree that Tina was developed to her full potential. I just feel that Kia may have been too. Liz Sherwood is an example of a kid who was motivated to transfer where Stefanie was motivated to transform herself.
How about comparing the development of two less talented players. Compare the career and development of Heather Zurich and Tahirah Williams. Williams was the 2005 NJ player of the year. Heather was 2005 NJ all state first team. Heather developed into a starter for RU, while Tahirah was a sparingly used reserve. Tahirah stayed at UConn for four years despite that, while others with the same ability might have transferred to other programs where they could get more playing time. I would argue that Heather ended up the better developed basketball player. If Heather had gone to UConn, she would probably have had the type of career that Williams had.

What I am really trying to point out is that player development depends on many factors, number one being the personality and drive of the recruit themselves. I would never dispute that Geno and the UConn staff are great at developing talent, but I feel there are other programs that do a good job and I don't agree with the premise that the UConn staff could better develop every player.

As for Coach P's recruiting pitch, she does have a national championship appearance to her credit, a lot of talent at Duke and the quest to get Duke it's first title. Duke is also better academically than UConn, no matter how you spin it, so a kid choosing Duke or Stanford over UConn may be because the entire package at those schools suit their goals better.

Why would Zurich have a worse career if she went to Uconn? Makes no sense. Her and Williams were very different players.

I guess it's semantics, but while I agree that Uconn would developed every player better than where they went, I would submit that Uconn is better at it.

 

[bschwartz]

No offense, but I think you are way off on this.

KML had no issues with her legs so I expect her to be up to speed quickly. They are getting a full week of practice. I don't understand why Duke would be a bad game t come back. The adrenaline will be pumping and they will work through any fatigue. If they don't look ready, Geno won't play them as much.

A disagreement is never an offense to me. And yes, I am not in practice. Perhaps this is a bit conservative, I would just set the bar high in terms of being ready to play. Maybe they are there and that would be great. We'll know in a week.

 

[Paul1969]

Ridiculous. McCallie is in no danger of losing her job anytime soon. Concerning Coach G, you'll see Beyonce and I sitting courtside at a Charlotte Bobcat Hornet game before you'll see Gail G. roam the sidelines again at Cameron

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

 

[semper]

There is no argument in my mind about how to be the very best you can be: either 1) go to UCONN; or 2) go to UCONN. The only coach who gives me pause is Muffet, and she comes out of the same world as Geno. And the way to "make" history, is be the very best you can be. Every time we lose a prized recruit, we watch her and many of us speculate about how she would have developed had she chosen Geno, CD, and crew. Samarie was a recent example. EDD, used to happen all the time. There have been exceptions, and I won't mention names, as I am wary of ever saying anything that might start some sort of tirade, esp. in this off week. But in general, there is simply no contest, at least since I started watching back in the D years. If you want to be transformed, go to UCONN.

 

[winlots]

Winlots, thanks for the kind words.

I think we aren't that far apart.

When Joanna says to a recruit, "you can make history HERE", there's definitely an implied "You won't be making history there, you'll just be another cog in the machine". I read your response as challenging that inference, because you believe (as I believe) that one can come to UConn and write history.

By definition, we will never again have a recruit who will be part of the school's first National Championship. But that doesn't mean there's no history to be written. A number of schools have an NC, but only one can have the most. In the near future, we may be able to challenge, not just women's basketball records, but all basketball records. Every player that is a part of every National Champion is a part of the history record, but within that history, there already is a special place for UConn, and a recruit can help make that place even more special. A recruit coming in can help build a legacy that will literally last forever.

But while I think there is a strong counter to Joannne's message, I think it is unfair to assume that a recruit would see it as bogus. It is correct to say that bringing a National Championship to Duke would be a special place in Duke history, and not one that could be replicated at UConn. The key is whether that unique opportunity is viewed as better than or not as good as the special place in the history of all of basketball that is possible at UConn.

I think you and i both agree that the potential place in history at UConn is a better option, but I fully understand Joanne's pitch, and, if I were in her position, I'd make it too.

PHIL: I don't disagree with anything you say in this good post. (( I've done a whole lot of recruiting myself, though only tangentially with regard to athletes, so when you read some of my stuff, understand that I'm prone to doing a little recruiting on here .......or "counter recruiting" as the case may be when another school is making a pitch that shows up here ))

 

[ScarlettB]

Why would Zurich have a worse career if she went to Uconn? Makes no sense. Her and Williams were very different players.

I guess it's semantics, but while I agree that Uconn would developed every player better than where they went, I would submit that Uconn is better at it.

I don't believe Heather would have ever started or played significant minutes at UConn, just like Williams never played much. At RU she became a starter and an integral part of their Final Four team. She and Williams were similar talent level, playing high school bb in the same state at the same time. I realize they are different players - TW a guard and HZ a forward. I feel Heather got to play more and developed more over her career than Tahirah because she got to play more and was instrumental to her team's success.

 

[doggydaddy]

I don't believe Heather would have ever started or played significant minutes at UConn, just like Williams never played much. At RU she became a starter and an integral part of their Final Four team. She and Williams were similar talent level, playing high school bb in the same state at the same time. I realize they are different players - TW a guard and HZ a forward. I feel Heather got to play more and developed more over her career than Tahirah because she got to play more and was instrumental to her team's success.

But you don't know how much playing time she would have gotten at UConn. You are only guessing.

There is no way to know if your scenario is what would happen. And are you saying that if Williams played at RU she would have had more success?

 

[sofrito]

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

Texas paid her what she was worth and was quite pleased with the result.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Texas paid her what she was worth and was quite pleased with the result.

Where's that darn sarcasm emoticon when you need it!?!!?!

Well played, sofrito, well played...

 

[triaddukefan]

I agree but Duke's biggest mistake was not paying COACH G. what she was worth. Coach P. is no Coach G. Sorry.

If I had the extra money to spare to donate to the cause.... I would have certainly have. But alas... my piggy bank wasnt that full at the time

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Coach P is no colossal failure at Duke - and Coach G was no huge success at Texas. So?

I'll finally decide on Coach G based on her next job, wherever that may be. Coach P has enjoyed moderate success at all schools where she has coached.

Neither of them, it seems to me, excelled at the charisma side of it.

 

[winlots]

Pardon me, but just "Gino" bugs some, "Walters" bugs me. It's [Kara] "Wolters" (because, yes, Kiersten Walters).

Thank you. Carry on.

WALLY: You are correct, of course, and I do know that it is Wolters......typo, brain disconnect, whatever....my error. (To the major point of my post, I think Walters could have made some nice history here too if not for her injury....got off to a wonderful start here.)

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Didn't Coach G say she had to take a break from coaching in leaving Texas? If I was an AD with a high visibility WCBB program I would not take a risk on her. It is hazy, but didn't she jump to Texas because she had sorta used up the "next year" thing at Duke?

 

[Bestiarius]

UConn is truly the land of opportunity. It doesn't matter who you are. If you work, absorb, and get with the program during practices, you will play. A remarkable ability of Geno's is to quickly pick up when a player isn't quite right during a game. That player is instantly out of the game. It doesn't matter if the player is #1 in the nation or a walk on. This quick action instantly right's the ship. Swift decision making gives every player hope. Regardless of your station on the team, if you work, you'll be part of the action.

Regarding development. With few exceptions over the years, I've noticed that everyone on the team is happy. They are always smiling and truly seem to like each other. Happiness stems from within. At some point during their career, the players realize, because of the coaching they receive, they are confident and playing better than their personal expectations. That makes a person feel good about themselves and others. No woman is an island - the key to success and happiness.