OT: Jalen Green spurning Memphis, heading to G-League

[Pmurph678]

You used perhaps the worst player to demonstrate your point.

1) that list you provided dates back over 20 years, but during roughly 15 of those years no HS kids could be drafted. So it's not very useful.

2) It includes very high profile players who weren't good enough to have gone straight to the pros. Guys like Allen Iverson was never going to that contract straight out of HS.

3) Of the one and dones, Zion got far and away more money than anyone else.

4) The point is Zion doesn't need to be the #1 prospect. He's a highlight reel. He's going to attract eyeballs regardless of whether he goes to Duke, Kentucky, UConn, Kansas, or UNC. He was going to be huge and was going to get a ton of money because of the wow factor.

Did going to Duke get him more money than going to Kentucky would have? Or Kansas? Or UNC? How do you know/prove that? What about UConn? Would he have only gotten $20 MM? How do you quantify that?

It's all speculation on your part.

People keep saying he's not the best prospect in his class. So what? He was still the number one draft pick, and got the second highest rookie sneaker contract ever. That wasn't because he went to Duke.

RJ Barrett went to Duke, was the number one player in his class, and signed with Puma for an undisclosed amount. But he just can't do the things Zion can, and doesn't attract as wide of an audience. So even though he's probably the better player, he was drafted after Zion, and (by all reports) got a lesser sneaker deal than Zion.

Guys like Zion don't "need" any leverage from any college brand. Any of the blue bloods will help, but they aren't needed.

Guys like Marvin Bagley stand to benefit far more.

Zion's brand absolutely benefited from playing a year in college.

No one watches the G-League, it is less exposure, thus reducing the value of a players brand.

How many Zion high school games did you watch? Probably not many, but he was doing crazy dunks during those too.

Unless you follow college basketball recruiting, no one knew who Zion was before he went to Duke. Everyone knew who he was once he went pro.

 

[BlueMAB]

After taxes the kid will have 250K in his pocket, and after living expenses, buying a car, and dropping big $$ on clubs and other stupid buys, he’ll have next to nothing. This against the prospect of a major injury and walking away with no life skills seems to be exactly why a little schooling might be a better path.

Must be easy going through life being able to predict exactly what other people will do before they do it.

Do you know how many lives you could have saved had you just told that guy not to eat the bat?

 

[BlueMAB]

Zion's brand absolutely benefited from playing a year in college.

No one watches the G-League, it is less exposure, thus reducing the value of a players brand.

How many Zion high school games did you watch? Probably not many, but he was doing crazy dunks during those too.

Unless you follow college basketball recruiting, no one knew who Zion was before he went to Duke. Everyone knew who he was once he went pro.

You're late to the party.

And wrong that "no one knew who Zion was before he went to Duke".

Among high school basketball players Williamson is a celebrity on a scale perhaps not seen since LeBron James. Other prep stars, such as John Wall, Thon Maker and Seventh Woods, have captivated millions of viewers with memorable mixtapes, and LaMelo Ball, the youngest brother in America’s most inescapable hoops family, has cultivated a vast online following, thanks mostly to his publicity-hungry father. But Williamson is unique in his capacity to consistently produce stunning plays that send tremors across basketball Twitter and serve as fodder for mesmerizing YouTube clips.

Sure he benefited from Duke. No more than he would have benefited from UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc, etc.

How much did he benefit? Put a number on it, then prove it.

Good luck with that.

I contend, it's not that much. Why? Because he got more money than any one and done ever, but not as much as Lebron, the only guy he compares to in terms of highlight reels.

I specifically responded to the comment that going to the G League would cause him to lose leverage. That's BS.

His leverage doesn't come from Duke, or the $500k rookie contract, it comes from his 6'6ish, 280ish pound body that comes with his 40+inch vert.

 

[BlueMAB]

You had said Zion and Lebron didn’t need college to get huge contracts/be household names. My point was those guys are the exception not the rule when it comes to most top 5 high school seniors

Exactly.

I've said at least 2 if not 3/4 times he picked the wrong guy to make his point.

Where did I say the G League is better for all of the top 5-10 HS guys all of the time?

Zion would have gotten a very similar contract no matter where he went to school. Guys can't do what he can do.

 

[the Q]

You're late to the party.

And wrong.

Among high school basketball players Williamson is a celebrity on a scale perhaps not seen since LeBron James. Other prep stars, such as John Wall, Thon Maker and Seventh Woods, have captivated millions of viewers with memorable mixtapes, and LaMelo Ball, the youngest brother in America’s most inescapable hoops family, has cultivated a vast online following, thanks mostly to his publicity-hungry father. But Williamson is unique in his capacity to consistently produce stunning plays that send tremors across basketball Twitter and serve as fodder for mesmerizing YouTube clips.

These kids are seeing that the plague known as social media gives them great brand power when they turn pro. Idk what greens follower count was before last week, but I’m sure he’s got a huge push since, and will command a pretty nice shoe deal.

I don’t know the rules of nba shoe deals for rookies, but when bench guys get free product and credits to get more gear, the top prospect is getting a nice deal. Do they do anything with a royalty to limit downside risk for the shoe companies?

 

[Mr. Hand]

After taxes the kid will have 250K in his pocket, and after living expenses, buying a car, and dropping big $$ on clubs and other stupid buys, he’ll have next to nothing. This against the prospect of a major injury and walking away with no life skills seems to be exactly why a little schooling might be a better path.

With the state of modern college basketball the way it is, most high level prospects don't get much out of the academic/life skills side of college anyway. So many NBA players end up broke - college or not. I would speculate confidently that going to college can be shown to make no difference in this regard, or only very marginal difference at best. The "student athlete" label the NCAA pushes is a myth.

 

[BlueMAB]

With the state of modern college basketball the way it is, most high level prospects don't get much out of the academic/life skills side of college anyway.

They get out of it exactly what they put into it.

They can graduate in 3 years like 2 of our own, or they can do the bare minimum to stay eligible until they get drafted.

 

[Jbirdp5]

These kids are seeing that the plague known as social media gives them great brand power when they turn pro. Idk what greens follower count was before last week, but I’m sure he’s got a huge push since, and will command a pretty nice shoe deal.

I don’t know the rules of nba shoe deals for rookies, but when bench guys get free product and credits to get more gear, the top prospect is getting a nice deal. Do they do anything with a royalty to limit downside risk for the shoe companies?

Jalen green is far from a household name and I would imagine a sneaker company would use that to get him a shoe deal on their best terms not his best terms.

 

[Mr. Hand]

They get out of it exactly what they put into it.

They can graduate in 3 years like 2 of our own, or they can do the bare minimum to stay eligible until they get drafted.

The exceptions you cite don't disprove the point. The vast majority can and will do the minimum - with no repercussions until it's too late. The college's really don't care.

 

[the Q]

Jalen green is far from a household name and I would imagine a sneaker company would use that to get him a shoe deal on their best terms not his best terms.

After this week, he is a household name. He was the biggest news in sports last week.

I’m sure he won’t get the same deal a Zion got either. But he’ll definitely get paid.

 

[BlueMAB]

The exceptions you cite don't disprove the point. The vast majority can and will do the minimum - with no repercussions until it's too late. The college's really don't care.

I didn't try to disprove your point. Your comment doesn't disprove my point.

The student-athletes, regardless of the level or institution, will get out of school what they put into it.

A player has to make the choice to do the bare minimum, nobody decides that for him/her.

 

[Jbirdp5]

After this week, he is a household name. He was the biggest news in sports last week.

I’m sure he won’t get the same deal a Zion got either. But he’ll definitely get paid.

It will be interesting to see what kind of deal he gets. His story was a big deal for sure, don’t know if he’s a big deal though.

 

[Pmurph678]

You're late to the party.

And wrong that "no one knew who Zion was before he went to Duke".

Among high school basketball players Williamson is a celebrity on a scale perhaps not seen since LeBron James. Other prep stars, such as John Wall, Thon Maker and Seventh Woods, have captivated millions of viewers with memorable mixtapes, and LaMelo Ball, the youngest brother in America’s most inescapable hoops family, has cultivated a vast online following, thanks mostly to his publicity-hungry father. But Williamson is unique in his capacity to consistently produce stunning plays that send tremors across basketball Twitter and serve as fodder for mesmerizing YouTube clips.

Sure he benefited from Duke. No more than he would have benefited from UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc, etc.

How much did he benefit? Put a number on it, then prove it.

Good luck with that.

I contend, it's not that much. Why? Because he got more money than any one and done ever, but not as much as Lebron, the only guy he compares to in terms of highlight reels.

I specifically responded to the comment that going to the G League would cause him to lose leverage. That's BS.

His leverage doesn't come from Duke, or the $500k rookie contract, it comes from his 6'6ish, 280ish pound body that comes with his 40+inch vert.

"Sure he benefited from Duke. No more than he would have benefited from UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc, etc.

How much did he benefit? Put a number on it, then prove it. "

I agree with the above, Zion benefited from playing at a major college program.

You're saying he would not have lost leverage by going to the G-League, does that mean he would would have benefited equally from playing in the G-League as he did at Duke?

 

[BlueMAB]

"Sure he benefited from Duke. No more than he would have benefited from UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc, etc.

How much did he benefit? Put a number on it, then prove it. "

I agree with the above, Zion benefited from playing at a major college program.

You're saying he would not have lost leverage by going to the G-League, does that mean he would would have benefited equally from playing in the G-League as he did at Duke?

I'm going to try not to repeat myself. I've made my point in several posts.

We don't "know" what he would have gotten, we'll never know.

Did going to college "hurt" him? I don't believe so.

Did it "help" him? Probably. But it's impossible to quantify that.

Did he "need" it for leverage in negotiations with sneaker companies? Absolutely not.

Why? He's a generational talent (physically) comparable really only to Lebron.

ESPN reports he is getting $75MM over 5 years. That's $15MM/year. And he may have left money on the table to sign with Jordan brand.

Sources say Zion Williamson had offers bigger than the Jordan deal. Left money on the table for his dream of wearing the logo of his favorite player.

Kevin Durant has the third highest rookie sneaker contract and he "only" got $8.57MM/year.

So, no, I don't think Jordan nearly doubled Durant's sneaker contract (while others were likely willing to double it) just because he went to college and not the G League.

 

[bfs3]

I can only speak for myself but the very first g league game I’ll watch is when ESPN airs the all star freshman rookie team vs the minor league pros. I’m definitely interested in tuning in. I’m sure they’ll find a way to monetize the games and market the players. I do wonder if it’s worth it for the guys not in that starting line-up but we’ll see how they do it.

 

[BlueMAB]

After this week, he is a household name. He was the biggest news in sports last week.

I’m sure he won’t get the same deal a Zion got either. But he’ll definitely get paid.

Zion was a household name before Duke. Anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves.

Jalen Green still isn't, and won't get close to what Zion got.

I don't think people realize just how much money Zion got compared to other rookie sneaker contracts. The top rookie sneaker contracts were in the neighborhood of $4MM to $6MM/year.

Zion is getting triple what Grant Hill, Carmelo Anthony, John Wall, Ben Simmons, and Vince Carter got. More than double what Allen Iverson got, and nearly double what Durant got. $15MM/year

 

[MDHuskFan]

Zion was a household name before Duke. Anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves.

Jalen Green still isn't, and won't get close to what Zion got.

I don't think people realize just how much money Zion got compared to other rookie sneaker contracts. The top rookie sneaker contracts were in the neighborhood of $4MM to $6MM/year.

Zion is getting triple what Grant Hill, Carmelo Anthony, John Wall, Ben Simmons, and Vince Carter got. More than double what Allen Iverson got, and nearly double what Durant got. $15MM/year

I posted tangible numbers that tie directly to his social media accounts reflecting the change post committing to Duke. The argument being made isn’t Duke vs other blue bloods though like you’re trying to twist it into, it’s College athletics vs the GLeague.

The longer you keep going, the more and more it seems like you’re just being argumentative for the sake of having an argument.

 

[BlueMAB]

I posted tangible numbers that tie directly to his social media accounts reflecting the change post committing to Duke. The argument being made isn’t Duke vs other blue bloods though like you’re trying to twist it into, it’s College athletics vs the GLeague.

The longer you keep going, the more and more it seems like you’re just being argumentative for the sake of having an argument.

No, you just don't understand nuance.

It's quite simple. Zion, like Lebron, is an outlier.

Look at the article you posted. They rank them by overall amount paid. I broke it down by yearly amount.

11) Straight from HS - $2MM/year (Over 20 years ago)
10) UNC - $2.4MM/year
9) LSU - $3MM/year
7) Kentucky - $5MM/year
7) UNC - $5MM/year
5) Duke - $6MM/year
5) Georgetown - $6MM/year
4) Cuse - $6.67MM/year
3) Texas - $8.5MM/year
2) Duke - $15MM/year
1) High School - $13.85/year (including signing bonus)

All 11:
Average: $6.67MM/year
Mode: $5/6MM/year
Median: $5/$6MM per year

Without Zion's contract (since it skews the numbers we're talking about):
Average: $5.8MM/year

The top rookie contracts average about $6M/year. That includes guys who did multiple years of college.

Zion is getting 150% more than that. You think going to Duke bumped Zion's yearly contract up to $15MM/year from an average of $6.67MM/year because of his instagram followers.

I don't.

If you're going to argue about contracts and leverage, don't post instagram follows, stick to the contracts.

For most of the top talent, college is probably a wiser decision. For someone like Zion, he doesn't "need" Duke's leverage, and it's laughable that anyone would argue he wasn't a household name before Duke.

 

[Lefty2one]

After taxes the kid will have 250K in his pocket, and after living expenses, buying a car, and dropping big $$ on clubs and other stupid buys, he’ll have next to nothing.

Nice of you to assume that every kid is an idiot.

A 19 year old is going to be dropping big money in clubs? Doing what, buying soda? It's not 2001; kids are much savvier when it comes off the court habits and I'm sure the Select Team will have plenty of structure and advisors.

This against the prospect of a major injury and walking away with no life skills seems to be exactly why a little schooling might be a better path.

Except for the fact that the NBA is giving Green a scholarship to use at a later date, thus giving him a better safety net than any one-and-done player has ever had. If he has a major injury he still gets his undergraduate degree at no cost to him.

You think one-and-done kids--some of who don't even put up the facade of attending spring semester classes--get something out taking a half dozen 101 courses?

 

[BlueDogs]

The exceptions you cite don't disprove the point. The vast majority can and will do the minimum - with no repercussions until it's too late. The college's really don't care.

I think the schools generally do care (the AD not so much except for compliance ). I also would think, given the probability of making it to the NBA and then sustaining it, the vast majority are best served at least having some skills to negotiate their way through life. Even the least motivated are required to conform to a learning environment and marginally learn. That’s better than the alternative, aimless, helpless ignorance.

 

[Lefty2one]

Zion was a household name but mainly due to his athleticism/dunks/being an Instagram sensation, even though he was a consensus Top 5 recruit.

There wasn't a single preseason mock draft that had Zion at #1 going into the season. He was somewhere between #3 and #5. Barrett was the consensus top pick before the season started and plenty of people had Reddish above him too. Many people thought Zion was just an athlete and were worried about his height. Having one of the best and most efficient ACC seasons in history surely helped him--plus seeing him on the same court as Barrett and Reddish for 30 games showed beyond doubt that he was better than those two--but I'm sure he would have been the top pick regardless of if he went to college or the G-League.

 

[Mr. Hand]

I didn't try to disprove your point. Your comment doesn't disprove my point.

The student-athletes, regardless of the level or institution, will get out of school what they put into it.

A player has to make the choice to do the bare minimum, nobody decides that for him/her.

On the contrary, like in Rashad McCant's case, many athletes are actively steered by administrators into no show, no work classes that effectively remove any and all benefit from attending college in the first place.

 

[MDHuskFan]

No, you just don't understand nuance.

It's quite simple. Zion, like Lebron, is an outlier.

Look at the article you posted. They rank them by overall amount paid. I broke it down by yearly amount.

11) Straight from HS - $2MM/year (Over 20 years ago)
10) UNC - $2.4MM/year
9) LSU - $3MM/year
7) Kentucky - $5MM/year
7) UNC - $5MM/year
5) Duke - $6MM/year
5) Georgetown - $6MM/year
4) Cuse - $6.67MM/year
3) Texas - $8.5MM/year
2) Duke - $15MM/year
1) High School - $13.85/year (including signing bonus)

All 11:
Average: $6.67MM/year
Mode: $5/6MM/year
Median: $5/$6MM per year

Without Zion's contract (since it skews the numbers we're talking about):
Average: $5.8MM/year

The top rookie contracts average about $6M/year. That includes guys who did multiple years of college.

Zion is getting 150% more than that. You think going to Duke bumped Zion's yearly contract up to $15MM/year from an average of $6.67MM/year because of his instagram followers.

I don't.

If you're going to argue about contracts and leverage, don't post instagram follows, stick to the contracts.

For most of the top talent, college is probably a wiser decision. For someone like Zion, he doesn't "need" Duke's leverage, and it's laughable that anyone would argue he wasn't a household name before Duke.

Why in your opinion did he get 150% more than the average contract then.
Why a kid who wasn’t projected as the number one overall pick or even the best player in his class coming in would get that deal with or without colleges exposure.
You want to have the argument but keep changing the position you’re coming from. You’re saying he was a household name already (from Instagram) then say you don’t want to talk about how his reach grew post committing to a college.
Then you say the conversation about contracts is flawed because who’s sampled and the 1 & done rules, but then only want to reference their contracts.

 

[BlueMAB]

Why in your opinion did he get 150% more than the average contract then.
Why a kid who wasn’t projected as the number one overall pick or even the best player in his class coming in would get that deal with or without colleges exposure.
You want to have the argument but keep changing the position you’re coming from. You’re saying he was a household name already (from Instagram) then say you don’t want to talk about how his reach grew post committing to a college.
Then you say the conversation about contracts is flawed because who’s sampled and the 1 & done rules, but then only want to reference their contracts.

I said it numerous times.

He's a generational athlete. He's a walking highlight reel. They don't care if he's not the best player. He attracts the most eyeballs.

Here are some other CURRENT sneaker contracts with the $/year (estimated by Forbes, as of 8/2019):

Klay Thompson- $9M/yr
Damian Lillard - $10M/yr
Greek Freak - $10M/yr
Derrick Rose - $11M/yr
Kyrie Irving - $11M/yr
Russell Westbrook - $12M/yr
Dwayne Wade - $12M/yr
Zion - $13M/yr
James Harden - $14M/yr
Kobe Bryant - $16M/yr
Steph Curry - $20M/yr
Kevin Durant - $26M/yr
Lebron - $32M/yr
MJ - $130M/yr

So you tell me, why a rookie has a better sneaker contract than what the Greek Freak, Damian Lillard, and FELLOW DOOKIE Kyrie Irving were able to negotiate WHILE THEY WERE ALREADY NBA STARS. I'm sure it's because he went to Duke.

Apparently the NBA needs a better plan in place to get their top athletes additional exposure.

 

[BlueMAB]

On the contrary, like in Rashad McCant's case, many athletes are actively steered by administrators into no show, no work classes that effectively remove any and all benefit from attending college in the first place.

1) not every university is as bad as UNC when it comes to fake classes
2) not every athlete cares as little about his/her education as Rashad MCants
3) As I said before... a player has to make the choice to do the bare minimum, nobody decides that for him/her.

I will not accept the premise that "many" athletes are steered into no-show/no-work classes. Even UNC athletes had to take some classes, and once they found out what the no-show courses they were enrolled in actually were, they could have chosen to drop and/or avoid them. They are as responsible for their own education as anyone in that university.

In fact, the only reason UNC got away with it, is because they allowed regular students to enroll in the fake classes too. Were those students steered into those courses by an AD who only saw dollar signs, or were they like a lot of college kids, and looking for an easy A?

Stop pretending like athletes are innocent victims of universities with no control over their education. (And that's coming from someone who thinks they should be paid).

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I think the schools generally do care (the AD not so much except for compliance ). I also would think, given the probability of making it to the NBA and then sustaining it, the vast majority are best served at least having some skills to negotiate their way through life. Even the least motivated are required to conform to a learning environment and marginally learn. That’s better than the alternative, aimless, helpless ignorance.

The difference between skills to negotiate their way through life and "aimless, helpless ignorance" is a few months hanging out on a college campus? I think you underestimate how much savvier the kids are these days and I think you WILDLY overstate how much time they have to spend doing school-related things.

 

[BlueMAB]

Whenever I'm trying to navigate through life i think back to that freshman spring semester Art History class and thank the academic gods.

 

[MDHuskFan]

I said it numerous times.

He's a generational athlete. He's a walking highlight reel. They don't care if he's not the best player. He attracts the most eyeballs.

Here are some other CURRENT sneaker contracts with the $/year (estimated by Forbes, as of 8/2019):

Klay Thompson- $9M/yr
Damian Lillard - $10M/yr
Greek Freak - $10M/yr
Derrick Rose - $11M/yr
Kyrie Irving - $11M/yr
Russell Westbrook - $12M/yr
Dwayne Wade - $12M/yr
Zion - $13M/yr
James Harden - $14M/yr
Kobe Bryant - $16M/yr
Steph Curry - $20M/yr
Kevin Durant - $26M/yr
Lebron - $32M/yr
MJ - $130M/yr

So you tell me, why a rookie has a better sneaker contract than what the Greek Freak, Damian Lillard, and FELLOW DOOKIE Kyrie Irving were able to negotiate WHILE THEY WERE ALREADY NBA STARS. I'm sure it's because he went to Duke.

Apparently the NBA needs a better plan in place to get their top athletes additional exposure.

This is a CBB exposure vs the GLeague, you keep wanting to make it solely about duke. Dukes just the example for this cause it’s where Zion went. Zion proved to be more than an athlete on a big stage, when there were questions surrounding people wanting to see if he was more than a dunker. Additionally, he proved to be more than a viral sensation.

This is a waste, though, neither of us are going to agree with the other.

 

[the Q]

The difference between skills to negotiate their way through life and "aimless, helpless ignorance" is a few months hanging out on a college campus? I think you underestimate how much savvier the kids are these days and I think you WILDLY overstate how much time they have to spend doing school-related things.

From what I’ve read, he average d1 athlete is 30ish hours per week.

 

[BlueMAB]

This is a CBB exposure vs the GLeague, you keep wanting to make it solely about duke. Dukes just the example for this cause it’s where Zion went. Zion proved to be more than an athlete on a big stage, when there were questions surrounding people wanting to see if he was more than a dunker. Additionally, he proved to be more than a viral sensation.

This is a waste, though, neither of us are going to agree with the other.

LMAO

I don't make it solely about Duke. I make it solely about Zion. You just don't want to accept you picked the worst possible player to make your point. I gave you the other schools on the top 10 rookie list. They include Georgetown, Kentucky, UNC, and Cuse.

Kyrie went to Duke, was drafted number one overall, and he's making less from a sneaker contract than Zion is after being an all-star and winning an NBA Championship, but that kills your point. So fine, where are all these other rookie sneaker contracts for college players that are higher than current NBA all-stars?

If learning that Zion makes more from sneakers than the Greek Freak doesn't help you understand what type of generational talent they see him as, then nothing will. You can chalk it up to me being argumentative, or you can look in the mirror and reconsider your choice of Zion.