Is Jim Beoheim The Most Overrated Coach in Sports?

[RipCity]

Can't beat good teams and preys on bad ones. He's only concerned with his win total and has amounted to less than any HOF coach.

 

[champs99and04]

No. Tom Izzo has been at Michigan State half the time that Boeheim has been at Cuse and he has 7 Final Fours, compared to Boeheim's 4. 7 B1G regular season championships, 4 B1G tourney championships compared to Boeheim's 3 Big East tourney championships and 8 regular season championships. Izzo has a better resume in half the time it took Boeheim to get his resume. Not even close. Izzo is, in my opinion, the second best coach on the country after K.

Final fours are obviously far more decorative than elite eights, but in reality they are just as arbitrary as elite eights or sweet sixteen's or anything else that isn't the number one goal, a national championship. And while I concede that Izzo is a better tournament coach, perhaps by a significant margin, there is more to team building than that.

The ability to recruit and develop talent is something I feel Izzo could be better at. When have you ever watched a Michigan State team and said, "damn, this team is loaded"? That's admittedly a subjective qualification, especially since the tournament results confirm that he has built some very good teams. Very good is a long way from great, though, and despite the seven final four appearances, I can't neglect the fact that when they get to the big stage they frequently get punked. Simply put, Spartan rosters rarely feature the sort of unbridled talent that you need to win games against Duke, UNC, etc. At some point, that falls on the head coach.

Look at the last six years. In my opinion, Boeheim could have conceivably won a title with four of them. Some would say that reflects poorly on his ability to maximize his opportunities. I say he maximized his opportunities by building great teams. The fact that he only brought one of those teams to the final four doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme.

Go back seven years, and MSU has been to three final fours. That's impressive. Go back to 2005 and he's been to four. Undoubtedly, these numbers validate him as a great coach. Does it make him a better coach than Boeheim? Eh, maybe to some.

Boeheim's had some great teams that lost by two or three points in the sweet sixteen or elite eight. Izzo's had some really good teams that lost by a thousand in the final four. At some point, you're either national champs or you're not. Izzo gets credit, justifiably, for getting his teams close. I'm just not sure they've been any closer than Boeheim's.

 

[RipCity]

Yeah, when you find yourself about sport taunt a nine year old, it's time to leave the playground.

If you're a member of the boneyard it should be illegal to be near a playground.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I couldn't pick anyone who is more overrated.

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah, when you find yourself about sport taunt a nine year old, it's time to leave the playground.

Eh, I'm more of a Billy Madison type of guy.

 

[intlzncster]

Look at the last six years. In my opinion, Boeheim could have conceivably won a title with four of them. Some would say that reflects poorly on his ability to maximize his opportunities. I say he maximized his opportunities by building great teams. The fact that he only brought one of those teams to the final four doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme.

JB's just not a closer. It's well documented he pads his teams schedule, and when they finally get to teams talented enough to figure out the 2/3 zone, they lose. He both maximized his opportunities and squandered them. That combination does not a great coach make.

 

[Inyatkin]

Final fours are obviously far more decorative than elite eights, but in reality they are just as arbitrary as elite eights or sweet sixteen's or anything else that isn't the number one goal, a national championship. And while I concede that Izzo is a better tournament coach, perhaps by a significant margin, there is more to team building than that.

I used to make this argument all the time back before UConn ever made a Final Four about how arbitrary it is. No one cares who the last four teams standing are in any other sport, so why this one? If you draw the line at greatness one round earlier UConn would never have had that "can't win the big one" reputation, which was dumb anyway.
But it is a fair point that Izzo is great at getting his teams to the one arbitrary cutoff everyone cares about and not great about going beyond it. Michigan State has got to lead the world in 20-point blowout losses in the last weekend.

 

[Ts5034]

I used to make this argument all the time back before UConn ever made a Final Four about how arbitrary it is. No one cares who the last four teams standing are in any other sport, so why this one? If you draw the line at greatness one round earlier UConn would never have had that "can't win the big one" reputation, which was dumb anyway.
But it is a fair point that Izzo is great at getting his teams to the one arbitrary cutoff everyone cares about and not great about going beyond it. Michigan State has got to lead the world in 20-point blowout losses in the last weekend.

This is a very interesting argument. Its just fact that college basketball coaches are judged on Final Fours and Championships. IIRC after beating Gonzaga in 99, JC said something like "Am I a better coach than I was before we won? No im not". He was obviously alluding to the fact that people will view his coaching resume in a more positive light just because he reached a Final Four.

 

[pnow15]

Izzo gets blown out in Final Fours because he somehow manages to get a Sweet Sixteen team through the second weekend. That is coaching.
People who think Boeheim is over rated seem to forget the Smart jumper in the last second.
Fact is Boeheim is only a few seconds away from three National Championships.
He was smart enough to find a defense he can coach and stick with it. This actually gives him an edge as no one else plays that zone like his teams do. It hurts his kids at the next level though.

 

[mauconnfan]

He's vastly overrated. He's a good coach and has put Syracuse on the map, and the 2-3 zone is supposedly some great thing. Well it didn't win many titles or get to many FF's in a program that had elite talent year in year out. To me that's overrated.

Anyone catch the ESPNU show with he, K and Roy on it discussing the NCAA and other stuff? I mean imagine having 2 coaches on there who have been involved in basically scandals at their schools and both are saying people don't understand how little they can do to know everything? This show was that of 3 elite whiners, 2 of who turned their backs to academics basically and the other getting on his soap box talking about 5th year transfers and how wrong it is. ESPN should be ashamed of this show as should these coaches.

 

[Husky25]

The 2-3 zone is difficult because it discourages isolated lane penetration. Teams can drive and dish when they get the opportunity, but mostly, they need to shoot over the defense or flash to the FT line. If you don't have enough shooting, the defensive guards can match up and force the offensive guards to give up the ball to weaker shooting big men ( see UConn v. Louisville '14). 95% of teams in college basketball are sub-par at this. The top 10 teams in the country are at least adequate and some teams have evenings or brilliance.

What the 2-3 also does (when you run it as much a Syracuse...which is all the time) is erode individual's man to man skills. They need these skills for the NBA.

 

[jibsey]

I have a question. Why do we care about this guy? For the amount of recruiting material that he has had to work with, he has been mediocre, especially compared to us.

 

[bobbygt]

Izzo gets blown out in Final Fours because he somehow manages to get a Sweet Sixteen team through the second weekend. That is coaching.
People who think Boeheim is over rated seem to forget the Smart jumper in the last second.
Fact is Boeheim is only a few seconds away from three National Championships.
He was smart enough to find a defense he can coach and stick with it. This actually gives him an edge as no one else plays that zone like his teams do. It hurts his kids at the next level though.

How does he jump from one to three NCs?

And I also would argue that getting to the FF is a bigger deal than making it to the E8- You break the NCAAT into two parts- the first two weekends and then the FF. The achievement of winning your region and cutting down the nets is a big deal. It's like a mini-tournament within the larger one.

The E8 game is arbitrary in the sense that it's just one game out of 30+ in a season, but the goal is to win that game. Falling short of that goal would sting if you're a player and should be judged against you as a coach.

 

[gtcam]

He's vastly overrated. He's a good coach and has put Syracuse on the map, and the 2-3 zone is supposedly some great thing. Well it didn't win many titles or get to many FF's in a program that had elite talent year in year out. To me that's overrated.

Anyone catch the ESPNU show with he, K and Roy on it discussing the NCAA and other stuff? I mean imagine having 2 coaches on there who have been involved in basically scandals at their schools and both are saying people don't understand how little they can do to know everything? This show was that of 3 elite whiners, 2 of who turned their backs to academics basically and the other getting on his soap box talking about 5th year transfers and how wrong it is. ESPN should be ashamed of this show as should these coaches.

Fifth year transfers vs one and dones
There's an interesting argument
K is a hypocrite - he may be a good coach but he is a whiner and a windbag

 

[Rico444]

Yeah, when you find yourself about sport taunt a nine year old, it's time to leave the playground.

Better than how they treat nine-year-olds at Syracuse.

 

[Waquoit]

Here's how I evaluate Izzo: Ever meet a Sparty fan? They all suck. All of them. Therefore, by the Associative Property, Izzo sucks too.

 

[IMind]

JB's just not a closer. It's well documented he pads his teams schedule, and when they finally get to teams talented enough to figure out the 2/3 zone, they lose. He both maximized his opportunities and squandered them. That combination does not a great coach make.

I'm sick of the argument that Beoheim is gret because he wins with less ass well. He's the one recruiting. He's the reason he has to win with less. That argument doesn't even hold up... because the only times he's sniffed the final 4 is with great talent. Carmelo, John Wallace... and the friggen 86-89 teams? He's got Coleman, Seikaly, & Douglas... He's had a few more great college players in there over the years as well.

 

[Gringo]

Yeah, when you find yourself about sport taunt a nine year old, it's time to leave the playground.

I think we need a new poll. Would you taunt a 9 year old girl wearing a Syracuse shirt?

 

[OkaForPrez]

I think we need a new poll. Would you taunt a 9 year old girl wearing a Syracuse shirt?

Is she talking smack?

 

[Gringo]

Is she talking smack?

2 scenarios:

1st scenario is the scenario boatshow faced;

"This girl at my school was wearing a Syracuse sweatshirt the other day. Despite the obvious knee-jerk reaction of berating the 9 year old for her poor choice in apparel I decided to take step back and assess the situation. Maybe a relative goes/went there. Maybe it was on the 50% off rack at the dollar tree where it belongs and her family couldn't afford a different sweatshirt. So I ask her "Oh do you know someone who went to Syracuse?" Her heartbreaking reply: "My brother says Carmelo Anthony went there." All I could do in response was walk away."

2nd scenario;

Girl says Gerry McNamara is her older brother.

 

[OkaForPrez]

2 scenarios:

1st scenario is the scenario boatshow faced;

"This girl at my school was wearing a Syracuse sweatshirt the other day. Despite the obvious knee-jerk reaction of berating the 9 year old for her poor choice in apparel I decided to take step back and assess the situation. Maybe a relative goes/went there. Maybe it was on the 50% off rack at the dollar tree where it belongs and her family couldn't afford a different sweatshirt. So I ask her "Oh do you know someone who went to Syracuse?" Her heartbreaking reply: "My brother says Carmelo Anthony went there." All I could do in response was walk away."

2nd scenario;

Girl says Gerry McNamara is her older brother.

She gets a pass on both.

 

[intlzncster]

Easy way to figure it out: say there's no KO when JC retired, and the choice is between a young Boeheim or young Izzo. Who do you take?

For me, it's Izzo 100 times out of 100.

 

[gioff23]

And Ironically? The only Final 4 game that UConn lost was played in Detroit vs. Michigan State.

Ironically, the distance from MSU to Detroit is not much different than the distance from UConn to MSG

JB is a really good coach, but he sure makes it easy for folks outside of upstate NY to dislike him

 

[Husky25]

Ironically, the distance from MSU to Detroit is not much different than the distance from UConn to MSG

JB is a really good coach, but he sure makes it easy for folks outside of upstate NY to dislike him

"Really good" and "overrated" are not mutually exclusive.

Joe Namath was a really good QB. Joe Namath is a Hall of fame QB. Joe Namath is overrated, particularly by Jets' fans.

 

[intlzncster]

"Really good" and "overrated" are not mutually exclusive.

Joe Namath was a really good QB. Joe Namath is a Hall of fame QB. Joe Namath is overrated, particularly by Jets' fans.

Can't blame them, have you seen the list of QBs since?