Irish fan on why UConn belongs in the ACC

[btstimpy]

When people think of the Northeast, particularly in terms of markets and $, they think of the Northeastern Megalopolis (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis), not Western PA and Upstate NY, the latter of which has been in a virtual depression for 20 years. Note that MD, Rutgers and UConn are in said megalopolis while Pitt and Syracuse are not.

You are splitting hairs, but that makes a good argument for Temple. But most people I converse with in that Megalopolis on a daily basis bring up names like the Eagles, Giants, Patriots, Ravens, Redskins, Red Sox, Orioles, Yankees, Phillies a lot more than I ever hear mention of Maryland or Rutgers. My boss is one. Talks about the Eagles all the time. He's in Mt. Laurel, NJ. Never once mentions Rutgers. College Basketball is different. It gets attention in the megalopolis. That's why UConn would be a good candidate to add.

 

[kibblesnbits]

You are splitting hairs, but that makes a good argument for Temple. But most people I converse with in that Megalopolis on a daily basis bring up names like the Eagles, Giants, Patriots, Ravens, Redskins, Red Sox, Orioles, Yankees, Phillies a lot more than I ever hear mention of Maryland or Rutgers. My boss is one. Talks about the Eagles all the time. He's in Mt. Laurel, NJ. Never once mentions Rutgers. College Basketball is different. It gets attention in the megalopolis. That's why UConn would be a good candidate to add.

Excluding Syracuse from any economic discussion of Northeastern markets is hardly splitting hairs. Upstate NY, and to a lesser degree Western PA, have been in free fall for decades.

 

[btstimpy]

Yes, I don't know what he means with this comment either. The southern ACC'ers have been exceedingly gracious in my wife and I in our travels to ACC venues for ACC games. I'm not sure btstimpy, if some of the Uconn fans have been to games in the South, but by and large, despite the home fans fans hoping their teams kick the snoot out of their traveling opponents, they are universally hospitable, almost beyond belief, to opponent fans when they come down to visit their stadiums for football games. Virgina, Virginia Tech, Clemson, and Tallahassee have all been outstanding venues, and their fans gracious, friendly, and hospitable.

Football Games in the South are a big party. Most of the fans are there to have a good time, and visitors are welcomed. The ACC men's basketball tournament in Greensboro is a big party. I've read reports from some of the Pittsburgh fans commenting on how much fun they had there, and how shocked they were with the event. It's a big carnival outside Greensboro Coliseum with bands playing live music and all kinds of fun and games. I'm glad you had a good time at the games you went to.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm from Boston, and the BC alums and hard core BC fans in the region that I encounter, get up ever day thinking about what ND is doing at every moment of their day it seems. The BC ones from NY- Jersey think about Rutgers, but neither think about Uconn football at all. Its a smug attitude some have, but that seems to be the case throughout the college football pecking order with school fanbases. Umass football fans would be in a tither over Uconn football going to the Big, as they delusionally view themselves at getting to Uconn's football level some day, but naturally Uconn football fans dismis Umass football in New England out of hand too, and don't think about them at all. They think about BC, and now Syracuse, and I get this whole dynamic and it makes sense of course too, imo

I'd give UMass some thought if:

1) they won their league twice in their first 10 years of inclusion;
2) their athletic department demonstrated that it could be competent enough to have teams win basketball, hockey, basketball, or soccer at a higher level; that would show that they could perhaps transfer over that success.

UConn football not only won their league twice in its first 10 years of D1 football, it also appeared in a BCS game. Our athletic department's success speaks for itself, as well. UMass has none of that.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

The ACC is in three regions (Northeast, Mid Atlantic, and South). The Pitt Cuse additions were in the Northeast part and driven largely by the Tobacco Road basketball interests. When Maryland left, the southern schools of the ACC wanted their opportunity to pick, and they selected Louisville for the reasons I stated. And Louisville's basketball wasn't so bad that the Tobacco Road folks could object like the could on USF or UCF. The Tobacco Road folks do still like UConn, and if expansion fever returns and UConn is still in the AAC, UConn will be seriously considered.

I'm having trouble identifying the coterie of institutions that would constitute the ACC's Mid Atlantic faction. Actually, I don't really care either. My problem with the current iteration of your mission is that you've created groups with potentially conflicting interests in what should be a common, universal objective. What happens when the southern schools disagree with those of the northeast? Whether or not a considered acquisition can team with an intrastate rival for an end of season dust up might be a "nice to have" when considering an addition. It might even be the tipping point that unbalances the scales when two candidates are of nearly equal value, but I don't see how it reaches the level of a mission because of its lack of inclusiveness.

 

[Yawkey Way]

We would take UMass football seriously if the state of Massachusetts took is serious.
We honestly don't know if they will ever get the support to be FSB.

I don't know. Even if the Mass Legislature took Umass seriously, I don't think most Uconn football fans would take Umass football seriously. Nor should Uconn football fans be expected too. Umass football is a new attempt by them to rise to major college football status in New England, and as a result, why would Uconn football fans want to pay them much mind as a result ? So they don't... and I fully understand this too. Its like I said, the college football pecking order at play re. fanbases. Do ND football fans think about BC ? Heck, of course not. They think about USC, Michigan.

 

[MSNDfan]

I


This thread is about a ND fan wanting Uconn in the ACC. I'd love to see both ND and Uconn as full members of the ACC. Why not ? Although, I'm sure Cincy fans believe that they should come in before Uconn. But this will probably be decided over the next 2 years on the football field. As for the BIG, I don't believe they substantially helped themselves that much with adding Maryland and Rutgers.. not when by contrast, the ACC secured Louisville, and ND as a full member in all sports, and a 5 game guaranteed partial football qualifyer in the ACC. I'm not so convinced, as apparently some are, that Delaney came out better in this than did Swofford.

That's what it should have been about. What it became about was some UConn fans wallowing in bitterness that has turned to hatred, which completely clouds vision and understanding. That bitterness and hatred includes ND as well as the ACC.

If you persist in bitterness, you blind yourself to opportunities and how best to prepare for them.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

I'm having trouble identifying the coterie of institutions that would constitute the ACC's Mid Atlantic faction. Actually, I don't really care either. My problem with the current iteration of your mission is that you've created groups with potentially conflicting interests in what should be a common, universal objective. What happens when the southern schools disagree with those of the northeast?

-How is that any different from the BUG10? Do you think Rutgers and Minnesota share the same goals; besides keeping the armored trucks rolling up University Drive?

-Rutgers did not have crowd support in the Pinstripe Bowl despite the fact that they arrived on a bus

One question: I know the boosters and alumni might not like the B1G, but why do you say the administrators hate it? Wasn't it the adminstrators who were in favor until they got alumni/booster blowback a decade ago? Are you saying Swarbrick/Jenkins are somehow different than White/Malloy in regard to how they view the B1G?.

Quite. Jenkins is on record as a football fan, virtually quoting ndnation that "We can't become a regional power as it will destroy our recruiting."

-We've pretty much discussed to death that there was no back-stabbing. We declined full membership in the BUG10, Big East, and ACC and reaffirmed independence.

 

[btstimpy]

I'm having trouble identifying the coterie of institutions that would constitute the ACC's Mid Atlantic faction. Actually, I don't really care either. My problem with the current iteration of your mission is that you've created groups with potentially conflicting interests in what should be a common, universal objective. What happens when the southern schools disagree with those of the northeast? Whether or not a considered acquisition can team with an intrastate rival for an end of season dust up might be a "nice to have" when considering an addition. It might even be the tipping point that unbalances the scales when two candidates are of nearly equal value, but I don't see how it reaches the level of a mission because of its lack of inclusiveness.

I consider Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and Eastern Pensylvania/Southern NJ Mid-Atlantic. The ACC did take a hit in the Mid-Atlantic by losing Maryland. That can be restored by adding Temple or Navy, but I don't think that is the direction the ACC is considering.

 

[Yawkey Way]

What happens when the southern schools disagree with those of the northeast?.

Well, havn't we been told that they defer to whatever it is that BC wants to do in cases like, and lets BC wishes prevail with these so called " southern schools " ?( again, I'm just trying to apply the reasoning oftentimes heard).

Duke is located in Raleigh. Is it a " southern school ". if so, much of its student body is from outside the South. The furthest " southern school" geogahically is Miami.. but I wouldn't call this former BE school a " southern school ", and their relationship with the northeast schools of Syracuse and BC and Pitt is better than it is with a school right within its state in the ACC... Florida State. There are lots of leagues now that seem not to make much sense. The ACC doesn't seem to me to be much different in this respect... and the AAC , surely doesn't make much sense either re. teams, schools, missions, etc

 

[Stray_Dog]

That's what it should have been about. What it became about was some UConn fans wallowing in bitterness that has turned to hatred, which completely clouds vision and understanding. That bitterness and hatred includes ND as well as the ACC.

If you persist in bitterness, you blind yourself to opportunities and how best to prepare for them.

...and ND has no bitterness to UM or the Big 10...please get off your righteous high horse, I certainly do not want nor did I seek a morality lesson from THE Judas University!

 

[Seaa Blue]

That's what it should have been about. What it became about was some UConn fans wallowing in bitterness that has turned to hatred, which completely clouds vision and understanding. That bitterness and hatred includes ND as well as the ACC.

If you persist in bitterness, you blind yourself to opportunities and how best to prepare for them.

You got it all wrong. It goes like this:

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
- Yoda

 

[tzznandrew]

I consider Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and Eastern Pensylvania/Southern NJ Mid-Atlantic. The ACC did take a hit in the Mid-Atlantic by losing Maryland. That can be restored by adding Temple or Navy, but I don't think that is the direction the ACC is considering.

I like you @btstimpy , but if you think Temple, or even Navy, can restore what you lost in Maryland, you're crazy.

Losing Maryland hurts. I know that the ACC doesn't want to admit that. Trust me, the Big East was there. We rationalized away losing Miami, and Virginia Tech, and BC. And then, for a time, we were better for it in basketball, and solid enough in football that the raid didn't really seem to matter.

But it did.

And the Maryland raid matters as well.

I like Louisville as a basketball program (although I'm less bullish on their football). I'm not going to trash their academics as some do...But they don't meet the ACC's professed standards. They should be in the BXII with West Virginia and Cincy. UConn should be in the ACC.

But the acceptance of Louisville highlighted a faultline, different from the faultline in the old Big East, but just as meaningful. The ACC is the basketball schools vs. the football schools politically. That division may not ultimately cause the league to disintegrate, but it has forced it to make short term decisions rather than long term ones, and that, I think, will hurt the league long term relative to the three other leagues that are stable (B1G, P12, SEC).

 

[btstimpy]

Excluding Syracuse from any economic discussion of Northeastern markets is hardly splitting hairs. Upstate NY, and to a lesser degree Western PA, have been in free fall for decades.

Ditto Michigan. It is the Rust Belt.

 

[tzznandrew]

That's what it should have been about. What it became about was some UConn fans wallowing in bitterness that has turned to hatred, which completely clouds vision and understanding. That bitterness and hatred includes ND as well as the ACC.

If you persist in bitterness, you blind yourself to opportunities and how best to prepare for them.

You can't blame us for being bitter. Look at what the BE was just last year, and then look at what the AAC will be this Fall. And that is, in part, due to a school like ND voting with the catholics all the way back in 2003.

Look, until UConn ends up in a real league (and I've frankly grown to like Memphis fans, so I hope they end up somewhere good as well), there will certainly be bitter directed at those who are in large part to blame for our situation. BC and Pitt are 1-2. But ND isn't that far behind.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Ditto Michigan. It is the Rust Belt.

And yet we're still here. Molecular cohesion still holding.

Thank God for Notre Dame, smack in the center, holding the ship together.

 

[NickyNewark]

You can't blame us for being bitter. Look at what the BE was just last year, and then look at what the AAC will be this Fall. And that is, in part, due to a school like ND voting with the catholics all the way back in 2003.

Look, until UConn ends up in a real league (and I've frankly grown to like Memphis fans, so I hope they end up somewhere good as well), there will certainly be bitter directed at those who are in large part to blame for our situation. BC and Pitt are 1-2. But ND isn't that far behind.

Looks like w/o Billybud and stimpy's called in the reinforcements or brainwash crew,,lots a luck ACC.Stimpcuse ur a gas!!

 

[btstimpy]

I like you @btstimpy , but if you think Temple, or even Navy, can restore what you lost in Maryland, you're crazy.

Losing Maryland hurts. I know that the ACC doesn't want to admit that. Trust me, the Big East was there. We rationalized away losing Miami, and Virginia Tech, and BC. And then, for a time, we were better for it in basketball, and solid enough in football that the raid didn't really seem to matter.

But it did.

And the Maryland raid matters as well.

I like Louisville as a basketball program (although I'm less bullish on their football). I'm not going to trash their academics as some do...But they don't meet the ACC's professed standards. They should be in the BXII with West Virginia and Cincy. UConn should be in the ACC.

But the acceptance of Louisville highlighted a faultline, different from the faultline in the old Big East, but just as meaningful. The ACC is the basketball schools vs. the football schools politically. That division may not ultimately cause the league to disintegrate, but it has forced it to make short term decisions rather than long term ones, and that, I think, will hurt the league long term relative to the three other leagues that are stable (B1G, P12, SEC).

If Maryland were thriving or supported anywhere near what you think they are, I'd agree with you. The rise of the Washington Nationals to take the last piece of corporate sponsorship away from the Terps in their region put them under financially. Heaven forbid if Baltimore ever gets a NBA team. I see Maryland athletics cutting sports and shrinking. I see Temple doing the same. The schools are about the same size. Temple may be larger. Temple is definitely in a larger market. Both Temple and Maryland have good basketball teams on occasion. Both make bowls on occasions.

Navy is a different story. It is a tiny school. But the US Navy is worldwide and has many active and retired personnel that watch that team. Their basketball would be a problem in the ACC.

 

[Yawkey Way]

I like you @btstimpy , but if you think Temple, or even Navy, can restore what you lost in Maryland, you're crazy.

Losing Maryland hurts. I know that the ACC doesn't want to admit that.
.

. quote]

The ACC replaced Maryland, by going out and getting Louisville. I don't think thats a wash. I believe the ACC got the better of that deal. But people are also entitled to believe that its better to have Maryland than Louisville, as its all a matter of opinion of course.

 

[NickyNewark]

Wher

Well, havn't we been told that they defer to whatever it is that BC wants to do in cases like, and lets BC wishes prevail with these so called " southern schools " ?( again, I'm just trying to apply the reasoning oftentimes heard).

Duke is located in Raleigh. Is it a " southern school ". if so, much of its student body is from outside the South. The furthest " southern school" geogahically is Miami.. but I wouldn't call this former BE school a " southern school ", and their relationship with the northeast schools of Syracuse and BC and Pitt is better than it is with a school right within its state in the ACC... Florida State. There are lots of leagues now that seem not to make much sense. The ACC doesn't seem to me to be much different in this respect... and the AAC , surely doesn't make much sense either re. teams, schools, missions, etc

WTF...stay away for a day and someones calling for the ACC propagandist bunch!! lol

 

[NickyNewark]

If Maryland were thriving or supported anywhere near what you think they are, I'd agree with you. The rise of the Washington Nationals to take the last piece of corporate sponsorship away from the Terps in their region put them under financially. Heaven forbid if Baltimore ever gets a NBA team. I see Maryland athletics cutting sports and shrinking. I see Temple doing the same. The schools are about the same size. Temple may be larger. Temple is definitely in a larger market. Both Temple and Maryland have good basketball teams on occasion. Both make bowls on occasions.

Navy is a different story. It is a tiny school. But the US Navy is worldwide and has many active and retired personnel that watch that team. Their basketball would be a problem in the ACC.

Stimp never quits....watup? Are u(stimpy) on the payroll of Swoffy? 1000 reasons to go to the ACC top's B1G(rustbelt) ....ur smooth stimpy but exposed. Unflappably professional.

 

[tzznandrew]

The ACC replaced Maryland, by going out and getting Louisville. I don't think thats a wash. I believe the ACC got the better of that deal. But people are also entitled to believe that its better to have Maryland than Louisville, as its all a matter of opinion of course.

I know you think that. And the performance in recent years in basketball and football certainly don't disprove you. And I like Louisville as a program. People like Senore here have been awesome.

But a state school like Maryland, with the state resources and higher academic standards, and success across multiple sports, is in a different stratosphere. And they pull in DC, aside from in Baltimore, and northern VA, and Philly. Louisville pulls Louisville. They get great ratings there, but they are the second school in their state.

 

[Gfunk]

Excluding Syracuse from any economic discussion of Northeastern markets is hardly splitting hairs. Upstate NY, and to a lesser degree Western PA, have been in free fall for decades.

Yeah, you could throw in Northern Indiana too - so the ACC has the Rust Belt issues as well: Pitt, ND & Syracuse, albeit Pittsburgh has done well to modernize their economy - a trend that could follow in other struggling Rust Belt areas. Buffalo is evidently rebounding & many parts of Ohio are doing better.

But I"m not one to root for economic ruin towards fellow Americans, regardless of region. When I took my oath during USMC enlistment, I swore to protect the entire nation - conference homerism will never exceed nation as a whole. The day that happens spells utter stupidity on my part.

 

[btstimpy]

I know you think that. And the performance in recent years in basketball and football certainly don't disprove you. And I like Louisville as a program. People like Senore here have been awesome.

But a state school like Maryland, with the state resources and higher academic standards, and success across multiple sports, is in a different stratosphere. And they pull in DC, aside from in Baltimore, and northern VA, and Philly. Louisville pulls Louisville. They get great ratings there, but they are the second school in their state.

DC is watching and supporting the Redskins and the Wizards, Baltimore is watching and supporting the Ravens, and Philly is watching and supporting the Eagles. Maryland won't be pulling Northern Virginia much. Penn State might though. The good news for Louisville is that Louisville actually does watch and support Louisville.

 

[pj]

How in the world was the ACC adding Louisville anything like the Big 12 adding WVU? Is Louisville 1000 miles from the closest ACC school? Is it in an entirely different time zone from the rest of the conference? Does Louisville have 0 history with all the other schools in the conference?

Maybe you don't know geography well, but in that sense what Louisville did for the ACC is make ND linked directly to the heart of the ACC. IN borders KY which borders VA which borders NC. Being an Irish fan, stuff like that I can see easily. What the ACC did for ND football in adding Louisville is provide a virtual midwestern team - Louisville is literally only the width of the Ohio River from being in IN - for us to play every 3rd year, and that will go a long way to replacing the BUG teams we no longer have time to play.

But that is far from all Louisville offers. It offers more in terms of football than UConn does, and football drives the bus of conference realignment - save for the BUG, which added 2 football duds and fiscal basket cases because of their TV markets. Louisville has a state of the art stadium renovated to seat 55,000. Louisville has won 3 different BCS bowls over the past 25 years, 2 of them in the past decade, each of them won by a different coach. A fourth coach in the same time frame also had an 11 win Liberty Bowl champ. Louisville is 100 miles from Cincinnati, which is a hotbed of football recruiting.

Why is that so hard to see for UConn fans? If expansion were about basketball, I would know why a conference would take Marquette or Georgetown over ND. I might not like it, but I would understand why the choice was made and know that it makes sense.

It's not hard for UConn fans to understand. What we understand are the ACC's priorities, some of which you've described -- entering the midwest, pleasing Notre Dame, football success -- and some you haven't -- pleasing BC and Syracuse, pandering to southern anti-Yankee prejudice, appeasing football schools' fear of a basketball-school dominated conference. Collectively these priorities made UConn unattractive to the ACC. Meanwhile we see the B1G's priorities, which would make UConn a top target, a higher priority for them than anyone the ACC added except perhaps Virginia Tech and Notre Dame, but certainly the B1G would take UConn ahead of Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Louisville, or Miami. So: rich good-looking girl values us highly; slightly dowdy girl dislikes us or is indifferent to us. Why wouldn't we feel more warmly to the rich good-looking girl who likes us?