I'm More Convinced Than Ever: UConn & UVA to the B1G

[upstater]

OK, I make the following post admitting that I do not know all of the goings on with the investigation. I gave up after about a year, because of all the stuff that kept coming out. It was too much to keep up with for me.

I thought that UNC's accreditation was with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools? And, if memory serves, SACS have made their ruling, and, they seemed satisified with how they were handling the situation.

Why would they be battling with the mid-states accreditation agency?

You're right it's SACS. I spoke to someone at MS who told me that the UNC fiasco was still going on. This is the new survey going on nationally. UNC's scandal was singled out as a flashpoint, with lawyers involved. Where did you see that the courses passed muster?

 

[huskyrob1]

I can only conclude that some folks are absolutely incapable of understanding that CR has next to nothing to do with athletic performance. You would think Rutgers' invite to the B1G would be a 2x4 to the side of the head on this issue, but apparently not...

Oh Yeah bright eyes? Nothing to do with athletics????? Then why aren't Delaney and Swofford in talks with IVY league members, Dartmouth, Havard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Princeton, they have glorious football and basketball pasts and could easily upgrade with a stamp and a signature? If they wanted bluebloods with a huge endowment and rich alumni that's where they would have gone, but they have not given them even a sniff. And if you're so smart then tell us why Rutgers got a B1G invite.

 

[upstater]

That's correct. They're accredited as an institution through SACS. What's more is that I looked and the department/college the African American Studies program is contained is not accredited as a program anyhow, so there's no worry of needing to drop the program. In fact, the entire college of arts & sciences does not appear to have any programmatic accreditation.

So unless SACS reverses course and considers removing institutional accreditation, not sure how this could impact UNC in any way academically short of the DOE getting involved an threatening Title IV funding (doubtful).

Not sure what you are looking at, but on the government website the college of arts and sciences shows accreditation.

Also, this link shows the final report to SACS is due this spring. http://oira.unc.edu/files/2013/08/L...erning-June-2013-Board-Decision-10JUL2013.pdf

Given how slow these groups are to respond, not sure they would have released a decision until now.

 

[whaler11]

Oh Yeah bright eyes? Nothing to do with athletics????? Then why aren't Delaney and Swofford in talks with IVY league members, Dartmouth, Havard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Princeton, they have glorious football and basketball pasts and could easily upgrade with a stamp and a signature? If they wanted bluebloods with a huge endowment and rich alumni that's where they would have gone, but they have not given them even a sniff. And if you're so smart then tell us why Rutgers got a B1G invite.

Um cable boxes. That's his point.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

What does the future hold? I don't know, but the data in the attached article is quite revealing.

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/cor...-of-tv-channels-available-to-them-1201172883/

Very interesting article and shows how much of a flux the TV industry is in. All the more reason for the ACC to pursue a network of its own. Letting ESPN tie you guys up might prove as valuable over time as some stage coach operator touting their deal with the leading buggy whip manufacturer circa 1890.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Good points. For all we know, internet streaming services could be more lucrative than TV networks. I'm going to guess that conferences will figure out a way to do this too, should it come down to it.

Conferences are going to figure it out by knowing they need to control their content. ESPN will continue to be the tail trying to wag the dog. The conferences need to understand they're the dog.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

IMO, the most interesting thing in the article was how few channels the average American watches. I know I can relate to that as far as what I actually watch, as compared to how much I watch through my Apple TV. I don't think it is surprising that people are starting to look at their cable bills and compare them to the number of channels they actually watch. Just my opinion - and I am not sure of the economics of this - but I gotta think that a la carte pricing, in some form, is only a matter of time.

Years ago I worked for a company that introduced pre-recorded video disks to the market. This was before even video tape player/recorders had penetrated to market. Even people who worked for the company refused to buy one because the wanted to record their own stuff from the TV. Later I read that for the vast majority of recordings made onto VCRs from broadcast TV, the people who recorded them didn't watch them even once! My point is that the expectations and actualities of the viewing public are often two different things. And the rebellion of cable customers against being charged for vast quantities of content nobody wants has yet to occur...but it's coming.

 

[Kolumbo]

Years ago I worked for a company that introduced pre-recorded video disks to the market. This was before even video tape player/recorders had penetrated to market. Even people who worked for the company refused to buy one because the wanted to record their own stuff from the TV. Later I read that for the vast majority of recordings made onto VCRs from broadcast TV, the people who recorded them didn't watch them even once! My point is that the expectations and actualities of the viewing public are often two different things. And the rebellion of cable customers against being charged for vast quantities of content nobody wants has yet to occur...but it's coming.

I'm at the point where I DVR virtually everything I watch. If it's an hour long episode, I'll start watching the recording 20 minutes or so after the televised episode just so I can fast-forward through the commercials or replay something I didn't hear. Doesn't everyone do this, and don't advertisers know this? I think the cash is going to dry up.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

So, you use a stereotype about some Southerners, which, in turn, shows one indicative of some northerners. Nice.

Some of us UNC fans couldn't possibly prefer the SEC, simply because we feel it is more of a good geographical fit than the B1G?

I was using a stereotype as a sarcastic form of humor. The Civil war is definitely is over; but the split in cultural differences between North/South, Red State/Blue State, Conservative/Liberal, etc. is still there and in full force. The ‘lines’ are much less defined though before due to immigration (internal and external) patterns. VA is now leaning slightly North/Blue/Liberal due to the influx of people in and around DC and the loss of traditional industries in VA’s western half. NC is about 10 years behind VA with people moving into RTP and the Charlotte area. As more of NC turns blue, the more UNC may fit into the B1G instead of the SEC should the ACC disappear, which I believe is less likely than the XII meeting the same fate.

 

[TerryD]

I wasn't arguing that the ACC would be destroyed (although some have interpreted what I said that way). Rather, I was suggesting that the ACC would be devalued as the B1G and SEC acquire some of its properties.

I don't think that people realize how tough it will be to dissolve a GOR. Nor do I think that people understand that GOR's are not new legal concepts and are not likely to be worth the effort to try to break or nullify one in court.

 

[Stray_Dog]

Are you arguing that an ACC offer might include a stipulation that if we mention the offer to any other conference the offer is null and void? Interesting.

No, but that could be a possibility I guess, I think realistically, we would not want to potentially rebuff a conference that makes an offer to us and then because we waited and talked to someone else and word got out, well then

I was using a stereotype as a sarcastic form of humor. The Civil war is definitely is over; but the split in cultural differences between North/South, Red State/Blue State, Conservative/Liberal, etc. is still there and in full force. The ‘lines’ are much less defined though before due to immigration (internal and external) patterns. VA is now leaning slightly North/Blue/Liberal due to the influx of people in and around DC and the loss of traditional industries in VA’s western half. NC is about 10 years behind VA with people moving into RTP and the Charlotte area. As more of NC turns blue, the more UNC may fit into the B1G instead of the SEC should the ACC disappear, which I believe is less likely than the XII meeting the same fate.

So, a conservative must be a southerner and a liberal a northerner? Please, this board is supposed to be about college sports and specifically UConn's involvement. Upstate NY is about as red as red can be, but its NYC that is as blue as blue can be. So for the record lets go back to talking about football realignment and not trying to postulate that the reason for UNC inclusion or exclusion is because of the political leanings of its populace within its states borders. In fact, in general most universities & colleges tend to be progressive. Therefore, I would say it is the fit of the university with its academic and athletic pedigree that really matter. Look to the BOT of any school in question, look at their endowment, and how that university affects the other universities within their conference -(collective group). Then see if said school makes the others look better, has no effect, or is benefiting from some other institution. Notice, there really is no leaning of politics or northern versus southern. Schools may want a regional conference because it makes sense for traveling - even professional sports in general but with few exceptions follow this model.
With regard to UConn,
Look at the fit UConn would have for the ACC - Great basketball pedigree. Tremendous investment in football in terms of a percentile increase year over year since announcing FBS / DIV 1a, we make the NYC market home to the ACC and leaving everyone else out (Duke vs. Syracuse vs. UConn, vs BC at MSG) - Huge football would take longer to come around to garner the same attention with those four schools!
Look at the fit UConn would have for the BIG - Great basketball pedigree. Tremendous investment in football in terms of a percentile increase year over year since announcing FBS / DIV 1a and added to this the money being spent on research and the money to invest in academia (professors, etc.) We would tie up the NYC market for the BIG.
Look at the SEC, we would offer them access to NY but at the expense of: being in their region: Oh and I am sure it is because we are northerners and they are southerners!
Look at the Big 12: We would give them access to NYC but is that access into NYC big enough??? They may think UConn does not have the pull necessary in all sports to be the draw they would want to see. But again our basketball would be a huge benefit to their conference with one big exception - the Travel!

 

[Stray_Dog]

I don't think that people realize how tough it will be to dissolve a GOR. Nor do I think that people understand that GOR's are not new legal concepts and are not likely to be worth the effort to try to break or nullify one in court.

In history remember so were TRUSTS and then what happened? "Legal" concepts won't matter if the concept itself is considered illegal!

 

[TerryD]

In history remember so were TRUSTS and then what happened? "Legal" concepts won't matter if the concept itself is considered illegal!

But they are not. GOR 's have existed for a long time in the music industry, for one instance, and have consistently been upheld by the courts.

Expansion likely should be discussed with the premise that the GOR's mean the Big 12 and ACC will exist, as is, for close to ten years.

 

[SouthronCross]

That's correct. They're accredited as an institution through SACS. What's more is that I looked and the department/college the African American Studies program is contained is not accredited as a program anyhow, so there's no worry of needing to drop the program. In fact, the entire college of arts & sciences does not appear to have any programmatic accreditation.

So unless SACS reverses course and considers removing institutional accreditation, not sure how this could impact UNC in any way academically short of the DOE getting involved an threatening Title IV funding (doubtful).

Best of my knowledge, SACS' Commission on Colleges finished their inquiry quite a while back, and, decided to take no action against Carolina. But, they are still monitoring the situation, in case something else happens.

 

[SouthronCross]

The B1G makes no sense for Carolina. I don't think the ACC is going anywhere, but it the wildly unlikely hypothetical, I think that UNC goes to the SEC. We biased northerner like to pick on the SEC, but there is nothing wrong with the academic profile at Georgia, Florida, Alabama (yes, Alabama), Texas A&M and certainly Vandy is superb. Missouri and Tennessee are certainly no worse than the likes of NC State and are better than Louisville. So the potential SEC EAST division that UNC would join would have a perfectly acceptable academic profile.

Just curious...you say the B1G makes no sense for Carolina. Ok, but, would it for Virginia, and, why them, but, not UNC? Because...and its solely my own opinion, we are more connected to UVA than anybody else within the ACC. Including Duke, and, NCSU.

You are very correct about Vandy, UF, UGA, and TAMU being excellent academic schools in the SEC. Alabama is an up-and-comer, too.

Now the real world is that both Carolinas are growing, along with Florida and Georgia. The upper midwest. Delany mentioned this several times, he wanted into the ACC footprint in part because it has better long term demographics. The ACC schools know this and should know that if they can hold together, they are in a great position, better than most of the other conferences really.

We all know why Delany wanted UNC, demographics aside. Its his alma mater. He may be B1G grand poobah, but, he still cares about Carolina, and, if memory serves, he's stayed in contact with Coach Smith since his dementia was diagnosed. I feel pretty safe saying that if push came to shove, Dean would want the B1G.

 

[SouthronCross]

You're right it's SACS. I spoke to someone at MS who told me that the UNC fiasco was still going on. This is the new survey going on nationally. UNC's scandal was singled out as a flashpoint, with lawyers involved. Where did you see that the courses passed muster?

I said that SACS seemed satisified with how UNC was handling the situation. Not that the courses passed muster. I think they are awaiting theconclusion of the NC SBI's investigation before acting further.

Honestly, I have no clue what the situation with those are, at present.

I do not believe that SACS will remove their accreditation, but, at this point, I have no idea what shoe might drop next.

 

[CL82]

Expansion likely should be discussed with the premise that the GOR's mean the Big 12 and ACC will exist, as is, for close to ten years.

Thanks so much for stopping by to frame out the concepts that we should discuss on the conference realignment board. I hate to think how the conversation might have randomly hit upon issues of interest to the rest of us without your direction.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

It's something:
"Universitas 21 - UConn is one of only four U.S. members of the prestigious Universitas 21 network, the leading global network of research universities for the 21st century!"
Four U.S. Universities are members: UCONN (2010), Ohio State (2013), UVA (2001), Maryland (2013).

Can this be sent to Delany with a note that he could have 75% or 100% of the US members in the Universitas 21 network if he would just pick up the phone. (860) 486-. That would just add to the prestige of the B1G.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Can this be sent to Delany with a note that he could have 75% or 100% of the US members in the Universitas 21 network if he would just pick up the phone. (860) 486-. That would just add to the prestige of the B1G.

Well, Michigan withdrew a while back (perhaps because Ohio State was allowed in ). No doubt Wisconsin and others could join the club if they chose to.

 

[BC1978]

But they are not. GOR 's have existed for a long time in the music industry, for one instance, and have consistently been upheld by the courts.

Expansion likely should be discussed with the premise that the GOR's mean the Big 12 and ACC will exist, as is, for close to ten years.

Agreed. The other issue that people forget, IMO, is that this becomes very problematic for the poaching conference IF they have a GOR themselves.

As a hypothetical, let's say, for example, that the a conference with a GOR is trying to poach an ACC team. I would think that this Conference would have to first dissolve their own GOR prior to the school challenging the leagility of the ACC GOR. Otherwise, all the ACC would need to do is subpeona the conference officials and ask them: (1) Does their conference have a GOR? and (2) would the new school be obligated to sign it? If the answer is yes to both of thse questions, then I would expect the ACC would move for an immediate dismissal, contending that the school wishing to bolt was in violation of the "clean hands doctrine", which requires the litigatants to make their claims in good faith. In this example, the ACC would make what I think would be a persuasive argument that this school was not acting in good faith - e.g., their legally challenging the basis of a GOR, yet at the same time fully intending to sign a similar GOR in the conference they are moving to.

In this example, IMO, the school's only option would be to narrow their challenge to some unique aspect of the ACC GOR that is different from the new conference's GOR. Given that these GORs are pretty much identical, the differences would likley be so minor that it would, I think, be next to impossible to get them declared unenforcebale on minor differences.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

No, but that could be a possibility I guess, I think realistically, we would not want to potentially rebuff a conference that makes an offer to us and then because we waited and talked to someone else and word got out, well then

So, a conservative must be a southerner and a liberal a northerner? Please, this board is supposed to be about college sports and specifically UConn's involvement. Upstate NY is about as red as red can be, but its NYC that is as blue as blue can be. So for the record lets go back to talking about football realignment and not trying to postulate that the reason for UNC inclusion or exclusion is because of the political leanings of its populace within its states borders. In fact, in general most universities & colleges tend to be progressive. Therefore, I would say it is the fit of the university with its academic and athletic pedigree that really matter. Look to the BOT of any school in question, look at their endowment, and how that university affects the other universities within their conference -(collective group). Then see if said school makes the others look better, has no effect, or is benefiting from some other institution. Notice, there really is no leaning of politics or northern versus southern. Schools may want a regional conference because it makes sense for traveling - even professional sports in general but with few exceptions follow this model.
With regard to UConn,
Look at the fit UConn would have for the ACC - Great basketball pedigree. Tremendous investment in football in terms of a percentile increase year over year since announcing FBS / DIV 1a, we make the NYC market home to the ACC and leaving everyone else out (Duke vs. Syracuse vs. UConn, vs BC at MSG) - Huge football would take longer to come around to garner the same attention with those four schools!
Look at the fit UConn would have for the BIG - Great basketball pedigree. Tremendous investment in football in terms of a percentile increase year over year since announcing FBS / DIV 1a and added to this the money being spent on research and the money to invest in academia (professors, etc.) We would tie up the NYC market for the BIG.
Look at the SEC, we would offer them access to NY but at the expense of: being in their region: Oh and I am sure it is because we are northerners and they are southerners!
Look at the Big 12: We would give them access to NYC but is that access into NYC big enough??? They may think UConn does not have the pull necessary in all sports to be the draw they would want to see. But again our basketball would be a huge benefit to their conference with one big exception - the Travel!

The Big12 is an interesting bunch to watch. There's this perception that they are disadvantaged w/o 12 teams. And word is they enjoyed their first taste of east coast exposure sending OU/UT to Morgantown. I dunno if UCONN is too geographically challenged but it could work.

 

[Seaa Blue]

But they are not. GOR 's have existed for a long time in the music industry, for one instance, and have consistently been upheld by the courts.

Times are changing. Just ask the record labels, distributors, record/book store owners, and FM DJ's.

The artist no longer has to win the lottery to develop and market material themselves.

In the CFB world, winning is all it takes to get noticed (no network hype needed), and many teams don't even have to do that.

The GoR probably doesn't mean that the label (network/conference) doesn't have to pay the artist (university) if they change a conference. That's the part about the GoR that could *probably* be successfully challenged if indeed the combination of bylaws and GoR are worded as such. So in that sense, yes, the GoR could be broken.

 

[kyleslamb]

Not sure what you are looking at, but on the government website the college of arts and sciences shows accreditation.

Also, this link shows the final report to SACS is due this spring. http://oira.unc.edu/files/2013/08/L...erning-June-2013-Board-Decision-10JUL2013.pdf

Given how slow these groups are to respond, not sure they would have released a decision until now.

There was a story with quotes last summer where SACS came out and concluded that a university probation plan developed by UNC where students retook the course in question was an acceptable response and that no further punishment was necessary. The report you are referencing is just a final monitoring report to insure that progress is being made on probation.

Here is a quote from June, 2013:

The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges (SACSCOC) Board of Trustees has voted not to sanction the University in connection with past academic irregularities in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies.

The University remains accredited and in good standing with SACSCOC and will be asked to provide a monitoring report by next June on continued progress with academic procedures in the department.

Chancellor Holden Thorp was notified by telephone about the decision on June 20.

http://gazette.unc.edu/2013/06/24/sacs-board-seeks-additional-monitoring-report-no-sanction/

Again, I don't know what you're looking at but I'm looking right at the OPE accreditation search tool and the College of Arts & Sciences are not showing up under a list of programs accredited. Here are the programs listed as being accredited:

Dietics, Academy of Nutrition
Nursing, ACEN and CCNE
Pharmacy, ACPE
Law, ABA
Dentristry, Endotontics & Periodontics, ADA
Occupational Therapy, CAPTE
Psychology, APA
Audiology, ASLHE
Health Services, CAHME
Public Health, CEPH
Radiology, JRCERT
Medicine, LCME
Teacher Education, NCATE

And of course, the institution as a whole is accredited by SACS.

I'm not sure where you're seeing the College of Arts & Sciences being specifically accredited, but I've looked three times and not found it. If they are, it's most definitely not listed on the OPE site.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/Ins...264743d362f322f3230313420333a35373a353720504d

I still think it's a moot point. You don't need to have a program accredited to offer the courses, especially if you're accredited institutionally. Accreditation at the institutional level is the only thing that outright matters. There are a lot of law schools that do not have ABA accreditation but are offered by the universities. SNE Law School, in fact, was not accredited by the ABA but was regionally accredited and very respected before its merger into UMass Dartmouth.

Program accreditation is recommended for credibility reasons, but is not a must. For the liberal arts courses, though, which do not rely on postgraduate education and licensing in order to begin a career, it's especially not a requisite.

 

[kyleslamb]

But they are not. GOR 's have existed for a long time in the music industry, for one instance, and have consistently been upheld by the courts.

Expansion likely should be discussed with the premise that the GOR's mean the Big 12 and ACC will exist, as is, for close to ten years.

They've existed in the music industry, though, under the premise that publishers must pay for the rights they're granted by the publishee.

If we accepted that same premise for college athletics, then we actually should not accept the ACC and Big 12 will continue as is because frankly if schools are paid for their rights, the new conferences could still take them and work around that compensation out of its league distribution.

Fact is, though, the ACC and Big 12 knows that it can't continue paying for the rights because that alone would not stop realignment from happening, so they will attempt to withhold payment altogether for the rights, which makes it nothing like the music industry which has been required to actually continue payment in exchange for rights. Thus, the only way to try to head off realignment and the leagues continuing as is would be if they breach the Grant of Rights. Though not specifically stated, it's highly unlikely that an attorney could argue that college programs have received anything BUT monetary compensation as the consideration they've been given for media rights all these years.

 

[huskyrob1]

Um cable boxes. That's his point.

Cable boxes??? To watch what? Keep in mind that he stated that conference realignment has nothing to do with athletics. So what is it? Closed circuit, study from home classes? Pay per view chemistry 101? Hey wait, could it possibly be athletics or is the BTN going to buy the Home Shopping Network?

that's my point

 

[Stray_Dog]

But they are not. GOR 's have existed for a long time in the music industry, for one instance, and have consistently been upheld by the courts.

Expansion likely should be discussed with the premise that the GOR's mean the Big 12 and ACC will exist, as is, for close to ten years.

But it took how long for "TRUSTS" to become illegal??? I do not know if they will be legal or illegal in 10 yrs, but my point to you was, what may be legal today may become illegal tomorrow. Think of it this way, currently Major League Baseball is an operating monopoly that the U.S. government currently allows. But if fans or the population was to suddenly for whatever reason to be against MLB, congress would step in as they have in the past and threaten to take away this "legal" monopoly until they changed their ways. (For the record no one believes it will ever be taken away but if MLB pushed on an issue that our U.S. congress was against - well who knows how that would play out).

I can't believe you are using the music industry as your example, I don't know of a more corrupt business other than the MOB. Sure the music industry is operating under "legal" pretense but lets not have out educational institutions aspire to such a shrewd, crafty, winner takes ALL and more business model that makes us think of high pressure tactics when we are now talking about the welfare of student athletes. I think the GOR as others have stated has yet to be challenged which is why no one knows for sure how this will play out. But with respect to the GOR, what does the student athlete get for signing with a team that allows a GOR to exist? Afterall, whose name is on the back of the jersey and worse whose body is taking the "punches" on the field. So please, and ND is going to talk about a GOR - please did ND sign the GOR? and if so, did it include football? So when this is all about football, please don't talk to me about the justification of a GOR citing of all things the music industry. ND, obviously is not going to have their football program subjected to it. And once again, ND is helping to defend or craft rules that they themselves will not be required to live by? When in the Old Big East, how many times did ND vote for something that was counter to the growth of the conference but served their own needs? Sure good shrewd business sense and now there are the GOR's, thanks ND, you helped destroy what was likely the best regional basketball conference in the U.S. and certainly the only one that ever captured NYC on a regular basis. Note to be clear I said Helped - I do not blame the Judas University solely but they definitely had a much bigger hand in it than they should have been allowed. Maybe the ACC, NBE, or the BIG will do this but they will never have been first and so they will always be compared - ALWAYS!!!

As a UConn fan, I do not plan on counting on the concept of a GOR being challenged as our only hope. Sure it could get things really moving, but I think conference realignment has a few more after-shocks before it settles. I think UConn will be involved in one of them and that is all I care about. A GOR being challenged and failing would be off the Richter Scale and the tectonic shift would be massive - so I think this will be avoided but I cannot assume it will never be challenged and if it is, what the outcome would be.

 

[mrhandyman]

Cable boxes??? To watch what? Keep in mind that he stated that conference realignment has nothing to do with athletics. So what is it? Closed circuit, study from home classes? Pay per view chemistry 101? Hey wait, could it possibly be athletics or is the BTN going to buy the Home Shopping Network?

that's my point

He said realignment has nothing to do with Athletic Performance, performance being the key word!

 

[HuskyDogArt]

I was using a stereotype as a sarcastic form of humor. The Civil war is definitely is over; but the split in cultural differences between North/South, Red State/Blue State, Conservative/Liberal, etc. is still there and in full force. The ‘lines’ are much less defined though before due to immigration (internal and external) patterns. VA is now leaning slightly North/Blue/Liberal due to the influx of people in and around DC and the loss of traditional industries in VA’s western half. NC is about 10 years behind VA with people moving into RTP and the Charlotte area. As more of NC turns blue, the more UNC may fit into the B1G instead of the SEC should the ACC disappear, which I believe is less likely than the XII meeting the same fate.

I doubt you'll see NC turn blue, unless ILLEGALS moved into the state and get amnesty. Of course, with AMNESTY for ILLEGALS, the US will be blue...because of those people.

 

[AfgHusky15]

I doubt you'll see NC turn blue, unless ILLEGALS moved into the state and get amnesty. Of course, with AMNESTY for ILLEGALS, the US will be blue...because of those people.

Its clear that for you red and blue don't matter as much as white and brown...

 

[WestHartHusk]

Its clear that for you red and blue don't matter as much as white and brown...

The barely concealed racism is beautiful. "Those people".