I'm More Convinced Than Ever: UConn & UVA to the B1G | Page 22 | The Boneyard

I'm More Convinced Than Ever: UConn & UVA to the B1G

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dooley

Done with U-con athletics
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
9,963
Reaction Score
32,822
Funny, I read that the other day for sheets and giggles I read to the whole thing. Guess wen you look at it from a WBB perspective, it doesn't matter what conference your in. Few gems in there that is for sure.

Agreed. The WBB team would finish 40-0 no matter what conference we are in. They could probably finish 40-0 in the WNBA.
 
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
2,676
Reaction Score
6,257
Let's think about the B12 versus the ACC for a moment or two.

The B12 has lost Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M, and Missouri since 2010. The ACC has lost Maryland. Which league has endured more trauma?

The B12 lost schools for reasons ranging from everything from "we were afraid of being left behind" to "we hate Texas". The ACC lost a school that monumentally mismanaged its money and had to cut out many sports. Which league is less fundamentally stable?

The B12 GOR expires in June 2025. The ACC GOR expires sometime around 2027 or so. Which league's schools are going to be available first?

The B12 has a footprint consisting of Kansas City and the State of Texas. The ACC has a footprint containing 70M more people than the B12, and ranges from Florida to Boston. Which league has the most long-term TV potential?

The B12 has a TV ratings problem because people outside of the tiny B12 footprint are not tuning into B12 football games. If you were forced to watch one of the following two games, which game would you pick: Virginia Tech @ Syracuse or Texas Tech @ Kansas State? How about Texas & Oklahoma or Clemson @ Florida State?

Huge numbers of alums of the B12's major schools -- Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas -- talk constantly about not being happy in the B12 and wanting out (and why not? -- the heart of our league has been ripped out). For Texas, Scipio Tex over at Barking Carnival is the leader of a rather cacophonous group of Longhorns disaffected with the B12. Do you hear the same unhappiness from ACC fans and alums day-after-day? Do any ACC alums come on this board and talk about moving out of the ACC?

Just playing out the probabilities with what is known today, which is more probable: The B12 gets raided again or the ACC gets raided again?

WinchesterBUCK is a great tOSU poster. But I just don't see UVA leaving the ACC without UNC in tow. Does anyone really foresee UNC being among the first two out of the ACC? To break open the ACC, I'm thinking it would take the B1G and the SEC cooperating in tandem. I just have trouble intellectually getting to that kind of cooperation between the B1G and the SEC, if only for the potential legal issues that would arise. WinchestBUCK also has been saying, "wait 'till MY-ACC settles", so we'll see soon enough, since the ACC cannot withhold any more MY money after June, 2014. Well, June's here, MY-ACC ought to settle soon (if it's going to settle at all), so we'll see.

And from simply a strategic standpoint -- not that there's anything anybody can do about it -- but if the B12 crumbles, there's only Kansas -> Oklahoma -> Texas that are desirable for the B1G. If the ACC crumbles, most all of the ACC schools would be available to the B1G, but more specifically, Boston College and Syracuse would be available. From a strategic pov, is it really in UConn's best interest to for the ACC to be the conference that crumbles?

Let's talk about Texas, it's goals and aspirations .... Texas' ambition is to become a truly national brand, and, hopefully, an international brand. Texas covets the huge metropolitan cities of the northern tier, and, most importantly NYC. NYC is the face of America, its media center, its cultural center (sorry, California).

Texas is setting up a football game in Mexico City, and we open the basketball regular season this year in China. For these kinds of endeavors, would being a member of the B1G give Texas more exposure in the NE Corridor or less exposure?

The SEC cannot deliver culture, except for "good ole boy" culture out in places like Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Texas doesn't want SEC "good ole boy" -- we've already got plenty of "good ole boy" out in the East Texas hinterlands, I assure you. Texas @ Austin values cosmopolitan and academic culture -- witness the current titanic struggle between Texas Admins and Governor Perry, who wants to turn Texas @ Austin into a diploma mill, like he did Texas A&M @ College Station. Not happening. Texas would love the CIC and this developing B1G association with the Ivy League, via Cornell. As for "rust belt", "too cold", "bad football", "can't recruit to the B1G" -- all that stuff is just plain plain silly and, frankly, border-line ignorant.

The bottom line is that Kansas would almost certainly accept an offer to join the B1G. If Kansas were to leave the B12, here comes the trauma. Again. There's only so much trauma Oklahoma and Texas can endure. You folks at UConn know exactly what kind of trauma I'm talking about. It's draining. Not fun. Recurrences are to be avoided.

I think Oklahoma would leave OSU and embrace the athletic-academic advantages of the B1G, which also offers lasting rock-solid stability, significant revenue, and re-establishment of the OU-NU rivalry. I'm not even certain OSU would fight Oklahoma if KU left for the B1G. I think OSU would simply be resigned to their fate. Oklahoma politicians are not going to block Oklahoma from migrating to the B1G if Kansas is gone. The only question I have is whether the B1G would offer Oklahoma unconditionally. They might not without linkage to a Texas acceptance.

As for Texas, Texas would understand that without KU and OU, the B12 is untenable. Texas would move somewhere, period, in my view. Would it be to the PAC? Would it be to the SEC? Would it be to the ACC? Would it be to the B1G? There's your only 4 choices -- independence is not an option. This post is sufficiently long. For many reasons, some set forth hereinabove, I think Texas would choose the B1G.

And that means UConn, either at #16 or at #18, to the B1G. In the B12 scenario, there is no BC or Syracuse to have to deal with. Just Kansas alone moving to the B1G and UConn is golden.
Lots of good points and food for thought. To answer your most burning question first, I'd pick the Texas Tech/K State game and that has nothing to do with you choosing Benedict Syracuse as one of the ACC pair. I'd also watch Texas/Oklahoma over Fla State/Clemson, but I'm a Texan so it might not be a fair question.

While the ACC may exist in a 70MM footprint, I wouldn't say they are particularly relevant in most of it.

I don't see the B1G and the SEC working in tandem to wreck the ACC, more like each believing certain ACC members present the best options in any expansionist plans they have and acting accordingly. A Virginia and North Carolina school liking the opportunities is the SEC means any B1G interest would also garner interest, and vice versa. I see one of those scenarios quite likely.

Why would the B1G have any interest whatsoever in BC or Cuse?

Lastly, isn't X divided by X simply 1 (except where X=0)? Have you given any thought to tightening up your nom de guerre?
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
172
Reaction Score
136
Let's think about the B12 versus the ACC for a moment or two.

The B12 has lost Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M, and Missouri since 2010. The ACC has lost Maryland. Which league has endured more trauma?

a) The Big East. Oops, that wasn't one of the choices.
b) Which is more traumatic: Enduring West Virginia (and their fans) as a conference mate or enduring West Virginia as a school you rejected, unleashing unrelenting wrath (from their fans) filled with lies that consume the Twitterverse/Blogosphere?

The B12 lost schools for reasons ranging from everything from "we were afraid of being left behind" to "we hate Texas". The ACC lost a school that monumentally mismanaged its money and had to cut out many sports. Which league is less fundamentally stable?

The B12 GOR expires in June 2025. The ACC GOR expires sometime around 2027 or so. Which league's schools are going to be available first?

The B12 has a footprint consisting of Kansas City and the State of Texas. The ACC has a footprint containing 70M more people than the B12, and ranges from Florida to Boston. Which league has the most long-term TV potential?

The B12 has a TV ratings problem because people outside of the tiny B12 footprint are not tuning into B12 football games. If you were forced to watch one of the following two games, which game would you pick: Virginia Tech @ Syracuse or Texas Tech @ Kansas State? How about Texas & Oklahoma or Clemson @ Florida State?

But then there is the riddle that the Big 12 schools get more money from ESPN/Fox than ACC gets from ESPN. Sure, the ACC schools *should* get more money than Big 12 schools, but the reality is that they don't. Money talks, bovine excrement festers.

Huge numbers of alums of the B12's major schools -- Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas -- talk constantly about not being happy in the B12 and wanting out (and why not? -- the heart of our league has been ripped out). For Texas, Scipio Tex over at Barking Carnival is the leader of a rather cacophonous group of Longhorns disaffected with the B12. Do you hear the same unhappiness from ACC fans and alums day-after-day? Do any ACC alums come on this board and talk about moving out of the ACC?
a) There were certainly some Clemson fans -- not I -- and some Florida State fans -- enamored of their school going to the Big 12. (Some claimed "legitimate high-level talks", of which I am skeptical).
b) Clemson and Florida State would jump to the SEC as soon as they saw "Slive, Michael" on the caller ID.
c) The SEC will not happen for Clemson and Florida State. The B1G is highly unlikely for Florida State and out of the question for Clemson. Clemson and Florida State are much more comfortable in the ACC than pursuing the Big 12.

Just playing out the probabilities with what is known today, which is more probable: The B12 gets raided again or the ACC gets raided again?

WinchesterBUCK is a great tOSU poster. But I just don't see UVA leaving the ACC without UNC in tow. Does anyone really foresee UNC being among the first two out of the ACC? To break open the ACC, I'm thinking it would take the B1G and the SEC cooperating in tandem. I just have trouble intellectually getting to that kind of cooperation between the B1G and the SEC, if only for the potential legal issues that would arise. WinchestBUCK also has been saying, "wait 'till MY-ACC settles", so we'll see soon enough, since the ACC cannot withhold any more MY money after June, 2014. Well, June's here, MY-ACC ought to settle soon (if it's going to settle at all), so we'll see.

The figments of truth (buried beneath the lies, malice, and vitriol) that arise from West Virginia blogs originate from E Gordon Gee, who has presided over WVU and tOSU. In Ohio, there is tOSU above all universities, there is B1G above all conferences (actual athletic results not withstanding, of course; the perception of superiority reigns unchallenged. Effectively, if you're a resident of Ohio, you're a Buckeye, regardless of whether you've ever stepped into a classroom in Columbus... like a UNC athlete, I guess.). I'll wait for news that does not originate from Ohio or West Virginia.

And from simply a strategic standpoint -- not that there's anything anybody can do about it -- but if the B12 crumbles, there's only Kansas -> Oklahoma -> Texas that are desirable for the B1G. If the ACC crumbles, most all of the ACC schools would be available to the B1G, but more specifically, Boston College and Syracuse would be available. From a strategic pov, is it really in UConn's best interest to for the ACC to be the conference that crumbles?

Let's talk about Texas, it's goals and aspirations .... Texas' ambition is to become a truly national brand, and, hopefully, an international brand. Texas covets the huge metropolitan cities of the northern tier, and, most importantly NYC. NYC is the face of America, its media center, its cultural center (sorry, California).

Texas is setting up a football game in Mexico City, and we open the basketball regular season this year in China. For these kinds of endeavors, would being a member of the B1G give Texas more exposure in the NE Corridor or less exposure?

The SEC cannot deliver culture, except for "good ole boy" culture out in places like Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Texas doesn't want SEC "good ole boy" -- we've already got plenty of "good ole boy" out in the East Texas hinterlands, I assure you. Texas @ Austin values cosmopolitan and academic culture -- witness the current titanic struggle between Texas Admins and Governor Perry, who wants to turn Texas @ Austin into a diploma mill, like he did Texas A&M @ College Station. Not happening. Texas would love the CIC and this developing B1G association with the Ivy League, via Cornell. As for "rust belt", "too cold", "bad football", "can't recruit to the B1G" -- all that stuff is just plain plain silly and, frankly, border-line ignorant.

The bottom line is that Kansas would almost certainly accept an offer to join the B1G. If Kansas were to leave the B12, here comes the trauma. Again. There's only so much trauma Oklahoma and Texas can endure. You folks at UConn know exactly what kind of trauma I'm talking about. It's draining. Not fun. Recurrences are to be avoided.

I think Oklahoma would leave OSU and embrace the athletic-academic advantages of the B1G, which also offers lasting rock-solid stability, significant revenue, and re-establishment of the OU-NU rivalry. I'm not even certain OSU would fight Oklahoma if KU left for the B1G. I think OSU would simply be resigned to their fate. Oklahoma politicians are not going to block Oklahoma from migrating to the B1G if Kansas is gone. The only question I have is whether the B1G would offer Oklahoma unconditionally. They might not without linkage to a Texas acceptance.

As for Texas, Texas would understand that without KU and OU, the B12 is untenable. Texas would move somewhere, period, in my view. Would it be to the PAC? Would it be to the SEC? Would it be to the ACC? Would it be to the B1G? There's your only 4 choices -- independence is not an option. This post is sufficiently long. For many reasons, some set forth hereinabove, I think Texas would choose the B1G.

I know he can say a lot of "shocking" things, but what are your thoughts on Clay Travis' suggestion of Texas affiliating with ACC in a manner like Notre Dame has?

And that means UConn, either at #16 or at #18, to the B1G. In the B12 scenario, there is no BC or Syracuse to have to deal with. Just Kansas alone moving to the B1G and UConn is golden.
When I look at the Big 12, I am skeptical of its long-term survival, yet I don't think for a second that UTx, OU, and KU will ever be left out. While UTx and OU conceivably would have several options, the B1G is far-and-away the most reasonable destination for KU. As you say, if the ACC holds together, UConn should have a real shot at B1G; if the ACC gets raided by the B1G, UConn would surely go to a (diminished) ACC. A diminished ACC is not in UConn's best interests.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,614
Reaction Score
25,035
From one of the insiders at The Scout Buckeye forum Hineygate:



Take if for what it's worth.

If this is the case, it's good news for UConn. UVa and UConn would be a great pairing if, as is likely, UNC is resistant; and then GTech, if the B1G likes them, would be available as a #18 to go with UNC.

The risk for UConn would be if UNC decided to go with UVa; then the B1G would be able to choose any two from UConn, Ga Tech, Duke, and Florida State to go to 18 (or 4 to go to 20); and might prefer a Ga Tech - FSU pairing to get football recruiting grounds and a huge state in Florida. If they were at 18 with Ga Tech and FSU, I'm not sure they'd think a Duke-UConn combo added enough value for 2 spots.
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
56,934
Reaction Score
208,637
A Michigan fan posting an Ohio State fan's statement as possibly being true? THIS is what it took for me to believe! We're going to the B1G, folks...
catintinfoil.jpg

Conspiracy Kitty says:
Dude, that's my schtick. Keep it up and I'll start predicting undefeated seasons!
;)
 

UConn Dan

Not HuskyFanDan; I lurk & I like
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
2,871
Reaction Score
10,057
Fishy said:
I'm guessing that Swofford's posturing over the ACC Network was just that - it sounds good and it helped keep the more fractious members from jumping. But it has to be a tough sell for ESPN. They would have to go through the expensive of setting up, staffing and running a new network for content they have already paid for. Perhaps worse, they would have to try to sell this network in markets that are or will already be dominated by ESPN's SEC Network and/or the Big Ten Network. They're bringing an expensive knife to a gun fight there. So if in ten years, the SEC and the Big Ten continue to zoom away from the other conferences and the ACC continues to lag the Pac 12 and Big 12, maybe you see the two markets that really have some value, NC and Va, start to look at a move south. In a few years, the ACC content will look like a bargain and backfilling some vacancies might not be that big of a deal compared to the cash generated by adding some big markets to their SEC network.
I agree the the ACC network is a tough sell and likely won't get off the ground anytime soon or even at all, but don't you think it would behoove ESPN to leverage the asserts of the SEC network and share the cost burden with an ACC network. I would think the Charlotte facility would be able to accommodate both networks while amortizing overhead. I have no clue about TV production but if I were ESPN it's probably the only way the ACC network happens.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
693
Reaction Score
1,350
The figments of truth (buried beneath the lies, malice, and vitriol) that arise from West Virginia blogs originate from E Gordon Gee, who has presided over WVU and tOSU. In Ohio, there is tOSU above all universities, there is B1G above all conferences (actual athletic results not withstanding, of course; the perception of superiority reigns unchallenged. Effectively, if you're a resident of Ohio, you're a Buckeye, regardless of whether you've ever stepped into a classroom in Columbus... like a UNC athlete, I guess.). I'll wait for news that does not originate from Ohio or West Virginia.

First, whether you want to call it "superiority" or something else, most Big Ten fans don't claim to be vastly superior in athletics overall. While the olympic sports have been as good as or better than anyone other than the Pac-12, football has certainly been down the last 5-8 years and no Big Ten fan I've ever comes across suggests differently. That said, the academic and financial aspects of conference social standing sort of speak for themselves. One can't really, on good faith, argue otherwise.

The Big Ten has led the nation in basketball attendance for 30+ years, and has been in striking distance of the SEC year after year in football (averaging nearly 20,000 more a game last season than the ACC for the record). They haven't had a member leave the league since Chicago decided to de-emphasize athletics, and for several years have been the leader in revenue (and although was reportedly unseated this year, will be back on top as soon as next year and certainly will be when they renew their media deals -- the last major conference to do so in this cycle). Should Big Ten fans feel pretty good about the league? I'd say the evidence is pretty overwhelming that they should.

Now, as far as news originating from Ohio State... whether you like it or not, they are one of the top two most influential schools in college athletics (Texas being the other). Fact is, they have been very active in discussions with schools around the country on legislative policy and also has served the Big Ten as unofficial 'pulse checkers' in conference realignment. When all the backroom, "off the record" conversations happen in realignment, who do you think was initiating a lot of the calls on behalf of the Big Ten?

Remember the "Tech problem" email? Well that's just one of many schools that Ohio State had dialog with. A lot of information comes from Ohio State sources because, frankly, they have their finger on the pulse of a lot of schools. For instance, when the Big Ten first reached out to Maryland a few years ago, well before any NDAs were signed, it was a couple of OSU trustees that first facilitated conversations with Brit Kirwin, former OSU and Maryland president-turned-system chancellor.

When other schools have been mentioned as being interested in the Big Ten... well suffice to say, it's not coming out of thin air IMHO.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
149
Reaction Score
382
For instance, when the Big Ten first reached out to Maryland a few years ago, well before any NDAs were signed, it was a couple of OSU trustees that first facilitated conversations with Brit Kirwin, former OSU and Maryland president-turned-system chancellor.

Don't you mean, the B1G's (((((((inside man))))))))??
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
92
Reaction Score
426
I think the B1G adds UConn and Kansas as the 15th and 16th members. This allows the b1G to either go after Oklahoma and Texas or go after Virginia , Carolina for number 17 and 18. Bye doing this the B1G has two routes it can go 16 is not the magic number.
 
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
2,444
Reaction Score
1,020
I think the B1G adds UConn and Kansas as the 15th and 16th members. This allows the b1G to either go after Oklahoma and Texas or go after Virginia , Carolina for number 17 and 18. Bye doing this the B1G has two routes it can go 16 is not the magic number.
I love it when a 1st time mystery poster gets us some positive new's here!! Thanks chitown76!
 

dayooper

It's what I do. I drink and I know things.
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,667
Reaction Score
4,371
Don't you mean, the B1G's (((((((inside man))))))))??

Oh, that's right. They had 2 "inside" men: Kirwan and present president Loh.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
149
Reaction Score
382
Loh was an (((inside man))) too??

Hot damn, we had them coming out of the MD woodwork!


Since he was HC at MSU, I guess Nick Saban is our (((inside man))) at Bama, and Les Miles our (((Ex-Michigan man))) at LSU.
I think the B1G has inside men on every coaching staff, and every school administration in the country. We're kindof ubiquitous like that.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
63
Reaction Score
203
Lastly, isn't X divided by X simply 1 (except where X=0)? Have you given any thought to tightening up your nom de guerre?

Lol. It is indeed "1". Which is exactly what I mean for my nom de guerre to be. Hence, "tightening up" is unnecessary.
 
Last edited:

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
[QUOTE="Lastly, isn't X divided by X simply 1 (except where X=0)? Have you given any thought to tightening up your nom de guerre?

Lol. It is indeed "1". Which is exactly what I mean for my nom de guerre to be. Hence, "tightening up" is unnecessary.[/QUOTE]


Just don't ask McCants turns out Algebra is tough.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
3,121
Reaction Score
2,837
Sorry if I offended anyone. I doubt that NC will turn blue unless the idiots in DC give illegals amnesty. If that happens, we will not be the same nation that the founding fathers wanted.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
None the less KylesLamb was on the money and a founder of the ACC....nice grab by the B1G sweeping the eastcoast top markets from DC to NYC/NJ/LI eyeball's. Grab UConn and the B1G will clean up NYC north clear to Maine for the upcoming TV rights negotiation's!! The largest richest market stretch in the country!

I never said he wasn't right.

Simply put, you cannot underestimate the dire financial straits that the Maryland athletic department was in playing a part in their decision to join the B1G.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
Eh.

It was a real estate acquisition.

With two invites, the Big Ten took the entire Mid-Atlantic region from New York to Washington DC - if you want to know where the ACC Network started to flat-line, that's where you start.

Eh, the ACC and the B1G currently share the DC market. They have not shut the ACC out of there. Not at all.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
Perhaps, but I think what needs to be emphasized though is that as petty as it sounds, the Big Ten didn't want to be perceived as jumping into regions and stealing teams from different territories. They wanted to gradually expand outward, if possible.

I do not think that the B1G stole Maryland from the ACC. UMD were having hard time financially within their AD, and, they felt that the ACC's payout was not going to help them going forward. While it sucks that they wanted to leave, if they did not want to be here anymore, going to the B1G was their best move.

The Big Ten also really, really wanted those TV markets (that cannot be emphasized enough).

Agreed. The B1G has been absolutely consistent with their moves.

And, to be frank, I also think the Big Ten knew that by adding Maryland, it would have a better shot at Virginia and UNC later on.

Only time will tell about this one.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
At the time, the ACC as a conference was also the lowest hanging fruit. So, make what you will of Maryland's financial issues, if the conference had been stronger it might not have happened.

Its kind of funny, neither UNC nor UVA were having any financial problems within their ADs, with the exact same media contract payouts that Maryland was receiving. So, I don't believe that the whole ACC was any kind of low-hanging fruit. But, thats the ACC homer in me. :)

And when there was talk of Clemson, Florida State and possibly UNC looking around, if any any other ACC school not named Duke would have gotten the call, they would have listened.

I never got any sense of real panic from any ACC school. FSU's nervousness was driven by a completely uninformed BOT member, who commented on the league media deal, when he knew jack spit about it.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
I thought it was when John Swofford sold all those "Tier 3" TV rights to Raycom and ESPN?

John Swofford cannot act unilaterally on something like that. He had to have consensus from the members to do such a thing.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
If you're asking ESPN to start a conference network for you, which you were, do you think losing every television set between Washington, DC and Manhattan might have been a bad thing?

We've lost EVERY TV set between DC and Manhattan? When did that occur?
 

Fishy

Elite Premium Poster
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
18,051
Reaction Score
130,766
We've lost EVERY TV set between DC and Manhattan? When did that occur?

This isn't rocket science.

Get out a map. Put one finger on DC and one finger on Manhattan.

Everything between those two fingers is off limits in terms of any proposed ACC Network.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
591
Reaction Score
378
This isn't rocket science.

Get out a map. Put one finger on DC and one finger on Manhattan.

Everything between those two fingers is off limits in terms of any proposed ACC Network.

No, its not rocket science, but, to say that if ESPN wanted it on the air in that region bad enough, it wouldn't happen?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
728
Guests online
3,279
Total visitors
4,007

Forum statistics

Threads
156,967
Messages
4,074,339
Members
9,962
Latest member
Boatbro


Top Bottom