I'm More Convinced Than Ever: UConn & UVA to the B1G

[kyleslamb]

Oh it's near Maryland I should have known that. Who cares if they aren't actually interested. Delany can just annex them on his own accord.

You've more than once stated that no one on this board knows what they're talking about, or at least no one really 'knows anything' about what's going on behind the scenes. If that's your stance, I find you to be awfully condescending and sure of yourself when presumably you don't know what Virginia or anyone else is really thinking.

Where's your proof they aren't actually interested. Did they tell you this? Do you have a recorded conversation you can play for everyone?

 

[whaler11]

You've more than once stated that no one on this board knows what they're talking about, or at least no one really 'knows anything' about what's going on behind the scenes. If that's your stance, I find you to be awfully condescending and sure of yourself when presumably you don't know what Virginia or anyone else is really thinking.

Where's your proof they aren't actually interested. Did they tell you this? Do you have a recorded conversation you can play for everyone?

The fact they aren't in the Big Ten is the evidence they aren't interested.

That they signed the GOR AFTER Maryland left.

You are just as confident they are headed to the Big 10 - the difference I have actual evidence and you have supposition you've created.

The Big Ten would not have gone in the Rutgers direction if Virginia was on the table. Rutgers was available for eternity.

 

[billybud]

Of course it is entertaining to read about the Grassy Knoll, Area 51 and the warehoused UFO, Amelia Earhart living to old age as a CIA asset and other conspiracy esoterica....

But it is what it is...entertaining fiction....much like watching ghost investigators at work.

 

[UConn9604]

For last year's game at Rutgers, thousands of Arkansas fans stayed in NYC, took a train directly from Penn Station and arrived on campus in New Brunswick within the hour. They enjoyed the tailgating, then the game, and returned to their hotel in Times Square for dinner.

FYI: The Amtrak Station in Hartford is a 3.5 mile drive to Rentschler Field.

The NJ Transit station in New Brunswick is a 4.3 mile drive to Rutgers Stadium.

I took the train to Rutgers for the 2008 game (the 12-10 stinkbomb loss). Took an NJ Transit in from Penn Station, then had to take a cab from the train station to the stadium. After the game, the buses back to the train station were full, so we walked back (it was a nice day).

But, it's not like the train station is that close to the stadium.

 

[SouthronCross]

I agree that UNC will not be the first to leave. I respectfully disagree that Virginia wouldn't consider it if a compelling offer came along. That said, I do believe that FSU or Clemson are more likely to leave first than UVA.

I respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement.

UNC and UVA are VERY closely bound together, academically as well as athletically. Neither will ever make a move without the other fully knowing what the other was doing.

As has been stated here numerous times, if UVA leaves, it will be for the B1G. Their Board of Visitors will never...NEVER...vote to take their school to the SEC. EVER. UNC possibly could, but, there would be a HUGE battle over which direction the University would go.

 

[kyleslamb]

The fact they aren't in the Big Ten is the evidence they aren't interested.

That they signed the GOR AFTER Maryland left.

You are just as confident they are headed to the Big 10 - the difference I have actual evidence and you have supposition you've created.

The Big Ten would not have gone in the Rutgers direction if Virginia was on the table. Rutgers was available for eternity.

You don't have any evidence. You're using a ridiculous premise. Since logic isn't your strong suit, apparently, let me let you in on some secrets.

Signing a document/contract with one entity doesn't prove they aren't interested in another entity, sir. Suggesting otherwise is as idiotic as insinuating that because you buy a Honda, therefore you have no interest in a Toyota.

Furthermore, just because one party isn't already a member of one entity, doesn't prove that they won't be. Strike two, sir. That's as idiotic as saying that because someone signed a new lease for an apartment, they must have no interest in buying a house because if they did, they already would have bought one.

You have no evidence that the Big Ten actually offered Virginia (they didn't, by the way). That they're still in the ACC is immaterial to whether or not they're interested or could be interested.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

For those of you who don't know it, Kyle S. Lamb is the man who actually obtained a copy of the B12 GOR and posted it online about a year ago. The B12 GOR was thoroughly picked over by myself and many others on the WVU Scout site (as well as on many other sites) at the time.

My take-away from the B12 GOR is this: The B12 GOR, in and of itself, is a significant "nuisance", but not an insurmountable hurdle, to the "right" B12 school leaving the B12 for another conference. The bottom line is that the B12 GOR contains no forfeiture provisions for TV money.

For purposes of illustration, assume, for example, Kansas wanted to migrate to the B1G and the B1G wanted Kansas in the worst way (to better drive home the point, substitute Texas for Kansas in the example). Under the B12 GOR, only Kansas' home games are affected (because the away school owns the TV rights to its own home games).

So Kansas' away games are TV revenue that flows into the B1G (more precisely, Kansas' away games at B1G venues). Plus, Kansas retains the rights to one football game (and 8 basketball games) as well -- this is the s0-called "B12 television Tier 3" situation that folks talk about from time-to-time. The TV revenue from this one Tier 3 football game also flows into the B1G, regardless of the B12 GOR.

Each year, even with Kansas being a member of the B1G, the B12 television pot gets divvied up among the B12 members and Kansas. To emphasize that last point: Kansas is now a member of the B1G, but Kansas' still gets its share of B12 TV disbursements at the end of each year.

The B12 GOR does not effect Kansas getting its share of B12 money because the B12 GOR does not contain any forfeiture provisions whatsoever. Zip. Zero. Nada.

As for Kansas and the B1G, Kansas would probably get a reduced share of B1G revenues until the end of the B12 GOR, at which time Kansas would graduate to a full share. I say a "reduced share" because the money Kansas gets from the B12 each year (which presumably would be paid over by Kansas to the B1G) would probably be less than would be earned by the B1G if Kansas were not subject to the B12 GOR. Thus, if the B1G wanted Kansas badly enough, obviously the B12 GOR could be worked around.

So what's the big deal with the B12 GOR, then?

None, really. The big deal is not the B12 GOR. It's a pain in the butt, it's a nuisance, at most, but the B12 GOR is not the show-stopper.

The show-stopper is the B12 Bylaws. It's the B12 Bylaws that contain the absolutely ferocious TV forfeiture language. The B12 Bylaws say, in paraphrase, that if you leave the B12 before the expiration of the B12 GOR, then you lose all of your home and away TV revenue until the expiration of the GOR (which expires in June 2025). All of it. Gone, gone, gone.

What's the B12 GOR this have to do with UVA, an ACC school subject to an entirely different GOR and Bylaws?

According to multiple news reports, the B12 "advised" the ACC when the ACC set up its GOR. Presumably the ACC also amended its Bylaws with language similar to the amended B12 Bylaws that contain the forfeiture language (but this is not clear).

If so, however, any school in the ACC (or B12) is going to have to have some pretty huge huevos if the school is going to migrate leagues before the end of the GOR. If you miscalculate, you may lose all of your TV money, if the GOR-Bylaws are upheld in court. Dangerous proposition for the school, dangerous proposition for any prospective new conference.

Are the Bylaws "legal"? I have no clue. Kyle S. Lamb points out on other boards that once a school withdraws from a league that school is no longer subject to the old league's Bylaws. Is this a "good" defense, overcoming the Bylaw's forfeiture provisions? I have no clue. Corporate law and corporate bylaws are way beyond my pay grade.

The GORs are a big deal, but not an insurmountable deal. The Bylaws, however, may be a whole 'nother thing. The Bylaws are certainly chilling factors of the first rank. Their existence will cause a school and a new conference considerable hesitation, I should think.

Therefore, like others, I have a serious question with respect to any B12 or ACC schools changing leagues prior to the expiration of those league's respective GORs. Conversely, if the ACC did not amend its Bylaws -- if there is no corresponding forfeiture language in the ACC -- then the ACC could well be picked apart long before the expiration of the ACC GOR. And that may great for UConn because ....

Personally, I think UConn is part of any move by Delany in going to 16. Delany has made it clear that he wants to finish off B1G ownership of the NE Corridor. UConn is the most logical school to finish off the northern end of the NE Corridor for the B1G since there really isn't any school in Massachusetts that fits the B1G criterion. UConn seems to be the best fit, other than UConn not yet being AAU. Similarly UVA is the most logical school to finish off the southern end of the NE Corridor. Delany may well consider UConn and UVA as near-perfect additions to the B1G.

OTOH, if the ACC GOR-Bylaws do contain forfeiture language, does UVA (or any ACC school, for that matter) migrate out of the ACC prior to the expiration of the ACC GOR? And if not, who in creation is there out there to pair with UConn to get to 16?

Well, there are SEC schools in general, and Missouri in specific. But would Mizz really leave the SEC -- a conference wherein they just played in the CCG, and a destination conference (but without a GOR)? Who knows? I don't think so, but who knows? Would any other SEC school bolt the SEC for the B1G? There's your questions because I don't see any school not a member of the ACC or B12 that are potential targets for the B1G.

That's all I got.

Thanks, that was a very good summary as to how the latest GOR works.

Especially this part

The B12 Bylaws say, in paraphrase, that if you leave the B12 before the expiration of the B12 GOR, then you lose all of your home and away TV revenue until the expiration of the GOR (which expires in June 2025). All of it. Gone, gone, gone.

I too have no idea if that is enforceable. It would seem hard to preclude them from contracting with a party who wasn't a part of the GOR, but that's what they are all about.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

You don't have any evidence. You're using a ridiculous premise. Since logic isn't your strong suit, apparently, let me let you in on some secrets.

Signing a document/contract with one entity doesn't prove they aren't interested in another entity, sir. Suggesting otherwise is as idiotic as insinuating that because you buy a Honda, therefore you have no interest in a Toyota.

Furthermore, just because one party isn't already a member of one entity, doesn't prove that they won't be. Strike two, sir. That's as idiotic as saying that because someone signed a new lease for an apartment, they must have no interest in buying a house because if they did, they already would have bought one.

You have no evidence that the Big Ten actually offered Virginia (they didn't, by the way). That they're still in the ACC is immaterial to whether or not they're interested or could be interested.

Well according to another former Big East member, UVA was "signed, sealed, delivered" to the BUG and will go public on Tuesday.

 

[whaler11]

You don't have any evidence. You're using a ridiculous premise. Since logic isn't your strong suit, apparently, let me let you in on some secrets.

Signing a document/contract with one entity doesn't prove they aren't interested in another entity, sir. Suggesting otherwise is as idiotic as insinuating that because you buy a Honda, therefore you have no interest in a Toyota.

Furthermore, just because one party isn't already a member of one entity, doesn't prove that they won't be. Strike two, sir. That's as idiotic as saying that because someone signed a new lease for an apartment, they must have no interest in buying a house because if they did, they already would have bought one.

You have no evidence that the Big Ten actually offered Virginia (they didn't, by the way). That they're still in the ACC is immaterial to whether or not they're interested or could be interested.

So agreeing to the GOR is not evidence that Virginia wants tonstay in the ACC.

Were you on the OJ jury?

 

[whaler11]

Kyle you severely underestimate Delany.

If you think he doesn't realize Virginia > Rutgers and therefore Virginia wasn't interested I don't know what to tell you.

 

[kyleslamb]

Well according to another former Big East member, UVA was "signed, sealed, delivered" to the BUG and will go public on Tuesday.

Hah, I missed that bit of 'news.' Who said that?

 

[kyleslamb]

Kyle you severely underestimate Delany.

If you think he doesn't realize Virginia > Rutgers and therefore Virginia wasn't interested I don't know what to tell you.

The Big Ten isn't trying to reel in all its biggest targets first. It's trying to branch outward methodically and geographically. Just because it took Rutgers doesn't mean it wants Rutgers more. It just means it wanted Rutgers too and there is a plan of attack in place to expand.

Did someone drop you on your head? Seriously, I hate to resort to personal attacks, but you really suck at logic. I can't believe this has to be explained to you, but here's a newsflash: the Big Ten didn't desperately try to grab everyone they're interested in all at once. SHOCKER, I know. But imagine this... they actually are trying to go contiguously and slowly outward. Amazing concept.

 

[billybud]

LOL...several Big Ten ADs said that Delany was spooked by the ACC addition of Notre Dame and moved rapidly to protect Penn State....

Judicious, well planned movement or a knee jerk reaction. I know what I think....

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Hah, I missed that bit of 'news.' Who said that?

Some dude on a mountain.

 

[kyleslamb]

LOL...several Big Ten ADs said that Delany was spooked by the ACC addition of Notre Dame and moved rapidly to protect Penn State....

Judicious, well planned movement or a knee jerk reaction. I know what I think....

Sounds like someone was reading Bleacher Report for their news.

It's funny that the ACC folks that want to perpetuate the impenetrable strength of the GoR ignore that Penn State itself is signed to a GoR with the Big Ten. They'll have you believe the Big Ten acted out of desperation because Notre Dame hitched its olympic sports to the ACC wagon. Seriously anyone thinking the Big Ten became desperate because of that is clueless.

Maryland and Rutgers were always targets for the next round of expansion; always. If anyone is interested, I can show you a link to the Syracuse board in summer 2011 where I was pointing this out.

At most, at very most, the Big Ten moved up their timetable by a year because of the Notre Dame move to the ACC. But it absolutely did not change their plan whatsoever. In fact, the Big Ten even noted after ND joined the ACC that move wasn't unexpected. Think logically here... why would the Big Ten be desperate about something that was Notre Dame's only move short of joining the Big Ten? ND joining the ACC was expected by the Big Ten all along, short of agreeing to become a full member.

 

[clmssun]

I agree that UNC will not be the first to leave. I respectfully disagree that Virginia wouldn't consider it if a compelling offer came along. That said, I do believe that FSU or Clemson are more likely to leave first than UVA.

As has been conjectured, maaayyybbbee FSU could get an invitation to B1G, but if expansion continues as it has for the Power 5 over the last five years then FSU and Clemson will not be invited to the SEC. Without an invitation to the SEC, FSU and Clemson are not leaving the ACC. So I guess the ACC really is stable.

 

[FDNY99]

Kyle my question now is this...with the "P-5" seemingly engaged fighting with each other right now...where does this go. Do the B1G, SEC and ACC go to 16? Does the B12 go to 12 again...or possibly 14? Or do the P-5 decide to become the P-6 and let the AAC into their club. Too many variables now it seems to me.

Sounds like someone was reading Bleacher Report for their news.

It's funny that the ACC folks that want to perpetuate the impenetrable strength of the GoR ignore that Penn State itself is signed to a GoR with the Big Ten. They'll have you believe the Big Ten acted out of desperation because Notre Dame hitched its olympic sports to the ACC wagon. Seriously anyone thinking the Big Ten became desperate because of that is clueless.

Maryland and Rutgers were always targets for the next round of expansion; always. If anyone is interested, I can show you a link to the Syracuse board in summer 2011 where I was pointing this out.

At most, at very most, the Big Ten moved up their timetable by a year because of the Notre Dame move to the ACC. But it absolutely did not change their plan whatsoever. In fact, the Big Ten even noted after ND joined the ACC that move wasn't unexpected. Think logically here... why would the Big Ten be desperate about something that was Notre Dame's only move short of joining the Big Ten? ND joining the ACC was expected by the Big Ten all along, short of agreeing to become a full member.

 

[kyleslamb]

Kyle my question now is this...with the "P-5" seemingly engaged fighting with each other right now...where does this go. Do the B1G, SEC and ACC go to 16? Does the B12 go to 12 again...or possibly 14? Or do the P-5 decide to become the P-6 and let the AAC into their club. Too many variables now it seems to me.

I think it will get resolved at some point, but I think you raise an important point in that realignment, while not over, won't go forward until some of these issues are squared away.

 

[whaler11]

The Big Ten isn't trying to reel in all its biggest targets first. It's trying to branch outward methodically and geographically. Just because it took Rutgers doesn't mean it wants Rutgers more. It just means it wanted Rutgers too and there is a plan of attack in place to expand.

Did someone drop you on your head? Seriously, I hate to resort to personal attacks, but you really suck at logic.

LOL yeah they are working backwards taking the lesser targets first.

UVa signed the GOR because they want out so badly.

Your personal attacks are fine because every bit of evidence points at Virginia wanting to be in the ACC and if they wanted to leave they would have been welcomed with open arms.

 

[FDNY99]

I think it will get resolved at some point, but I think you raise an important point in that realignment, while not over, won't go forward until some of these issues are squared away.

Honestly right now...the easiest thing for the P-5 to do is let the AAC make them the P-6. This solves a lot of issues and lets some schools who are willing to play on that level have the chance. Ultimately I see the ACC, B1G, and B-12 feeding on the carcass that is the AAC after feeding on each other. The next chess move will I think ultimately decide whether BC is isolated by the B1G juggernaut and left to whither and die on the vine or if the ACC trumps Delaney by taking UCONN and ultimately gaining hand in NYC.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Kyle you severely underestimate Delany.

If you think he doesn't realize Virginia > Rutgers and therefore Virginia wasn't interested I don't know what to tell you.

Virginia < Rutgers when the target is New York.

 

[whaler11]

Virginia < Rutgers when the target is New York.

And guess what.... they could have still added Rutgers whenever they wanted.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

LOL...several Big Ten ADs said that Delany was spooked by the ACC addition of Notre Dame and moved rapidly to protect Penn State....

Judicious, well planned movement or a knee jerk reaction. I know what I think....

Somehow I think "spooked" is your word...or at the very least not Delany's. What's Notre Dame got to do with Penn State?

 

[dayooper]

LOL yeah they are working backwards taking the lesser targets first.

UVa signed the GOR because they want out so badly.

Your personal attacks are fine because every bit of evidence points at Virginia wanting to be in the ACC and if they wanted to leave they would have been welcomed with open arms.

I think you are selling Rutgers short. They had been talked about for quite some time and were even mention back in 2010 as a possibility. Mind you, this is some speculative stuff and it's over 4 years old now, but Frank the Tank had a commenter that had some "industry information" created a valuation chart for the potential 12th (and 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th) team. He does give a brief overview of the metrics, but doesn't go into the math.

On top, by a huge margin was Texas. Second? Rutgers w/NYC market. Third was Nebraska followed closely by Maryland. ND was actually fifth. Teams such as UVA and UNC aren't included so we don't know where they would fall into the equation.

Here's the link to the post.

Again, take all of this with a grain of salt as it's speculative. I do believe that it's somewhat accurate as three of the top four teams are now in The Big10.

That being said, am I excited about Rutgers? Not really. I would much rather have a larger name come into the Big10 if we had to have someone. I will accept them with open arms, though, as they are now our brothers (at least on July 1st, they will be).

 

[RegisteredUconn]

And guess what.... they could have still added Rutgers whenever they wanted.

In fact, they did add Rutgers when they wanted.