Hurley Planning on an 8 man rotation | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Hurley Planning on an 8 man rotation

husky429 said:
I think the big question is who will be those 8 guys right now. Seems fairl

Likely sitting:
  • Springs
  • Diggins
  • Floyd

Definitely in the 8 (IMO or from reports...):
  • Cole
  • Sanogo
  • Whaley
  • Hawkins
  • Akok

... one of these guys isn't going to get starter-type minutes... your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Gaffney if we use him purely as a backup PG.
  • Polley
  • Gaffney
  • Rese
  • Jackson
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if Hawkins is good enough to be one of our top five players, that’s a good sign. I definitely know he’s a quality player, but I was surprised to see him as one of the top five.

I may be “mis-remembering“ this, but I felt as if you were a little soft on AAs chances this year. Did I get that wrong or have you heard something?
 
Waquoit said:
Sounds like it's still an issue. When Hurley said "...when Tyler Polley is engaged defensively..."; that was coachspeak for "Tyler Polley isn't engaged defensively."
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I honestly don’t know if it’s an engagement issue, he’s a super senior for God’s sake. I think it’s a talent issue.

He is just is too slow and is bereft of defensive instincts.

He is capable of doing one (important) thing well. When that isn’t happening on a given night, he should be nailed to the bench
 
I think I cracked the code.

1 guy 30, 2 guys 25, 5 guys 20, 2 guys 10

Cole -- Sanogo, Whaley -- Hawkins, Martin, Jackson, Gaffney ... and then 1 of Polley or Akok is the last 20 minute spot and the other with Johsnon in the 10 minute blocks. The rotation is smoother with Polley getting 20, since he can play minutes at the 3.

PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (10), Johnson (10), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

Floyd, Diggins, Springs with spot minutes/red shrting.
 
CL82 said:
if Hawkins is good enough to be one of our top five players, that’s a good sign. I definitely know he’s a quality player, but I was surprised to see him as one of the top five.

I may be “mis-remembering“ this, but I felt as if you were a little soft on AAs chances this year. Did I get that wrong or have you heard something?
Expand ...

Most recent interview Hurley said he'll get starter minutes. If he's with it mentally, he could have a great season
 
auror said:
I think I cracked the code.

1 guy 30, 2 guys 25, 5 guys 20, 2 guys 10

Cole -- Sanogo, Whaley -- Hawkins, Martin, Jackson, Gaffney ... and then 1 of Polley or Akok is the last 20 minute spot and the other with Johsnon in the 10 minute blocks. The rotation is smoother with Polley getting 20, since he can play minutes at the 3.

PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (10), Johnson (10), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

Floyd, Diggins, Springs with spot minutes/red shrting.
Expand ...


Thats honestly not bad. Pretty great breakdown.

I think Martin will average more than 20.
He can play 2,3,4.
I think that will cut Gaffney a bit under 20 and Johnson a bit under 10 . In fact I could see Johnson riding pine , not for talent reasons, but Freshman ones.

Obviously its going to be fluid, but your take is a good start.

What's glaring there is its sad that Akok is only getting 10 a game. I hope he makes us all eat a prediction like that. But I cant argue with it at this juncture.
 
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auror said:
PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (10), Johnson (10), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

Floyd, Diggins, Springs with spot minutes/red shrting.
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give samson's mins to akok and i'm happy. 9 guys should get starters mins ie 20 mpg+

PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (20), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

30- cole
25- whaley, sanogo
20- gaff, hawk, aj, martin, polley, akok
B- digg, samson, springs
RS- floyd
 
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auror said:
I think I cracked the code.

1 guy 30, 2 guys 25, 5 guys 20, 2 guys 10

Cole -- Sanogo, Whaley -- Hawkins, Martin, Jackson, Gaffney ... and then 1 of Polley or Akok is the last 20 minute spot and the other with Johsnon in the 10 minute blocks. The rotation is smoother with Polley getting 20, since he can play minutes at the 3.

PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (10), Johnson (10), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

Floyd, Diggins, Springs with spot minutes/red shrting.
Expand ...
That's pretty much exactly what I had in my notes, just had Gaffney with some extra minutes at PG and Martin/Akok with 5 more each from Johnson's minutes. I did it a few months ago so think Johnson will definitely earn some minutes now
 
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Guapo said:
The issue with Polley is that he’s so dreadful on the defensive end and doesn’t really contribute all that much in any other aspect of the game. If he’s not hitting his shots, he’s such an anchor on the floor
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Which is why several in this thread see him getting inconsistent minutes throughout this season.
 
Huskyforlife said:
People have a selective memory of Polleys defense. When it comes to contesting on the perimeter, you could argue he's one of our best. We just can't have him matched up on traditional 4s, he really struggles with physicality. Also considering we're playing many 2 big lineups this year, his footspeed should be less of an issue with the type of elite help he'll have at the rim.
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Polley’s problem has always been strength or lack of it.
He was a kid ( he and Akok were born the same year ) , when he got here and got injured his sophomore
year It tough for a guy his size to be quick enough to guard on the perimeter but he was never strong enough to guard a big so Hurley’s had him guarding 6’5” 3’s.
At 22 and two years removed from the ACL I suspect he can handle most 4’s in the Big East with a combination of size , quickness, and mature physical strength.
At lest I hope so. He actually moves his feet well for a 6’9” guy but lacks that shot blocking skill the board loves.
Frankly I rather see a guy forcing his man into no or bad shots for 25 minutes than blocking 2-3 .
 
navery12 said:
I know, grain of salt and everything with what Hurley says, but if we're analyzing Hurley's comments about 8 guys getting starters minutes we can't just ignore this

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Yes, and I when I look like Ryan Reynolds, I get quality time with Blake Lively. Hurley also mentioned rebounding in that series of quotes. In four years, I've seen one good rebounding effort. I saw a good defensive effort against McDuffie, because, like Polley, he's slow, tall and plays outside. He can't stay with quick guards or wings outside, and he can't handle real forwards inside. So he's going to be a defensive liability against most of our opponents. Our hard hedge makes it worse. I think we could handle people blowing by him if we had say, Thabeet manning the paint. Instead, often last year teams waited until the 5 went outside, reversed the ball to Polley's man and took it to the basket.
 
auror said:
I think I cracked the code.

1 guy 30, 2 guys 25, 5 guys 20, 2 guys 10

Cole -- Sanogo, Whaley -- Hawkins, Martin, Jackson, Gaffney ... and then 1 of Polley or Akok is the last 20 minute spot and the other with Johsnon in the 10 minute blocks. The rotation is smoother with Polley getting 20, since he can play minutes at the 3.

PG - Cole (30), Gaffney (10)
W1 - Hawkins (20), Jackson (10), Gaffney (10)
W2 - Martin (20), Jackson (10), Polley (10)
F - Whaley (10), Akok (10), Johnson (10), Polley (10)
C - Sanogo (25), Whaley (15)

Floyd, Diggins, Springs with spot minutes/red shrting.
Expand ...

Dear Lord...if Polley plays even 1 minute at the 4 on a team with Whaley, Akok, Johnson and Springs, things have gone badly wrong. Even Martin and Jackson are better able to defend the position. Give those 10 minutes to Akok and this is about right.
 
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AZHuskiePop said:
Polley’s problem has always been strength or lack of it.
He was a kid ( he and Akok were born the same year ) , when he got here and got injured his sophomore
year It tough for a guy his size to be quick enough to guard on the perimeter but he was never strong enough to guard a big so Hurley’s had him guarding 6’5” 3’s.
At 22 and two years removed from the ACL I suspect he can handle most 4’s in the Big East with a combination of size , quickness, and mature physical strength.
At lest I hope so. He actually moves his feet well for a 6’9” guy but lacks that shot blocking skill the board loves.
Frankly I rather see a guy forcing his man into no or bad shots for 25 minutes than blocking 2-3 .
Expand ...


I've said it before and I'll say it again. Polley is actually an excellent "team scheme" defender. Seldom out of position, helps properly, recovers properly. He get's it. He doesn't hurt our team defense at all, say, the way Enoch did. His glaring weakness is one on one defense in isolation. He lets guys (and they can be 3's, they can be 4's, they can be whatever's, as long as they have a decent handle and a semi quick step) turn the corner on him on the bounce. Tyler's definitely long enough, and semi-athletic enough to be better at preventing that, but that's why people think he doesn't defend. Because that's an easy call when you see a guy abuse him in iso. Watch the rest of his D game and one would be pleasantly surprised.

He definitely doesn't need to block shots, but if he can 1) keep guys in front of him better in iso 2) be a little more ferocious on boards (and I think we saw hints of that at end of last year) then I think he seems some decent floor time this year. (as long as no more nagging injuries)
 
HuskyHawk said:
Yes, and I when I look like Ryan Reynolds, I get quality time with Blake Lively. Hurley also mentioned rebounding in that series of quotes. In four years, I've seen one good rebounding effort. I saw a good defensive effort against McDuffie, because, like Polley, he's slow, tall and plays outside. He can't stay with quick guards or wings outside, and he can't handle real forwards inside. So he's going to be a defensive liability against most of our opponents. Our hard hedge makes it worse. I think we could handle people blowing by him if we had say, Thabeet manning the paint. Instead, often last year teams waited until the 5 went outside, reversed the ball to Polley's man and took it to the basket.
Expand ...
It's barely even worth the engagement with you on Polley, but I'll just direct you to @August_West 's post for an accurate description of his defense. He's going to play big minutes this year whether you like it or not, you can fight it all you want but the people who matter realize his value to the team
 
August_West said:
Thats honestly not bad. Pretty great breakdown.

I think Martin will average more than 20.
He can play 2,3,4.
I think that will cut Gaffney a bit under 20 and Johnson a bit under 10 . In fact I could see Johnson riding pine , not for talent reasons, but Freshman ones.

Obviously its going to be fluid, but your take is a good start.

What's glaring there is its sad that Akok is only getting 10 a game. I hope he makes us all eat a prediction like that. But I cant argue with it at this juncture.
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Hurley has mentioned at least once that Akok needs to realize the talent on the roster this season isn't the same as the talent when Akok was a true frosh. Reading between the lines, Hurley's saying Akok needs to improve or get passed by.
 
Jackson has put a lot of time on his shot so we’ll see if he became a good shooter this summer. It’s always projected but never happens.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Dear Lord...if Polley plays even 1 minute at the 4 on a team with Whaley, Akok, Johnson and Springs, things have gone badly wrong. Even Martin and Jackson are better able to defend the position. Give those 10 minutes to Akok and this is about right.
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I agree with you in general (the above was my attempt to put the puzzle pieces of what the coaches will do based on what they've been saying), and agree that Martin and Jackson are better defenders there. But I do think there are definitely scenarios where he should play some minutes at the 4, just maybe not on an every game basis (opponents who zone or have similar slow-footed but don't post forwards).

And this is especially true because I'm a bit worried about Akok. I was very optimistic this summer, but Coachspeak has been very mixed and abstract this fall. I would love nothing more than to bump Polley's minutes down for a defensively dominant and good shooting Akok. And I doubt Johnson's there yet for more than 10 minutes.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Coaches make statements all the time for purposes other than that they are true. Motivating players. Relaxing fanbases. Getting reporters off their backs.

I get why people want to analyze these statements, but remember that Hurley doesn't necessarily believe these words as they come out of his mouth, and that's before even considering how much his view of the team could change between now and the trip to the Bahamas.
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You are absolutely right. This goes into the same category as “we are going to press for 40 minutes” and “we will be a running team.” None of those things will happen either.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Hurley has traditionally leaned on small lineups, so I would think the forwards will be the ones getting cut back. Carlton averaged 11 mpg last year (which doesn't include a couple of DNP's) yet he is good enough to be recruited by one of last year's Final Four teams.
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If Carlton stayed who is he bumping? Not Sanogo or Whaley and probably not Johnson as the season progresses. I like Josh but he would see spot minutes probably less than last year. He left on good terms. I hope he does well in Houston. I’ll be rooting for him.
 
BPT2Storrs said:
The article says 8 will get “starter minutes” not that the others won’t play. The guys not in the top 8 just need to earn there minutes. Hopefully this lights a fire and ultimately everyone gets better because of it.
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Ppl really don’t comprehend LOL
 
Polly will not be getting 20 minutes. Maybe 10 for instant offense. I hope I’m wrong but he’s a huge liability on defense and he can’t rebound to save his life, or his career.
 
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Odds are there will be injuries throughout the season so these minute allocations will vary. And if we do stay healthy, then this is a great problem to have.

If you can’t crack the top 8/9 on our team then maybe you shouldn’t be on the court.
 
navery12 said:
It's barely even worth the engagement with you on Polley, but I'll just direct you to @August_West 's post for an accurate description of his defense. He's going to play big minutes this year whether you like it or not, you can fight it all you want but the people who matter realize his value to the team
Expand ...

Maybe look at my post just before that where I said he was hurt by our scheme. It's similar to what @August_West said. We can perhaps disagree a bit on his team defense, it was better before his ACL injury. But he can't keep most of the people he guards outside from blowing by him and he can't handle anybody physical inside. He can lay off a bit of shorter guys and use his length to bother their shot. But the real issue is that our defense too frequently asks our 5 to vacate the lane and hedge outside, which is an open invitation to attack the rim. I believe this is a problem for Gaffney as well, who also struggled (to a lesser degree) to keep his man from getting past him. Park a shot blocker in the paint and this is less of an issue and our ability to guard tight outside improves. It's what Calhoun did for years. It's what the Celtics did with Russell ("hey Bill").

Will Hurley change things? I don't know. He's got Clingan coming in, and I don't see how he can play defense in our current system. Calhoun made his shift after we started recruiting real 5s. Maybe Hurley will as well. This is the year to do it. Sanogo (or whoever is the 5) shouldn't venture past the foul line. Use Whaley and Akok at the 4 to hard hedge if you need to, they can both recover quickly.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Maybe look at my post just before that where I said he was hurt by our scheme. It's similar to what @August_West said. We can perhaps disagree a bit on his team defense, it was better before his ACL injury. But he can't keep most of the people he guards outside from blowing by him and he can't handle anybody physical inside. He can lay off a bit of shorter guys and use his length to bother their shot. But the real issue is that our defense too frequently asks our 5 to vacate the lane and hedge outside, which is an open invitation to attack the rim. I believe this is a problem for Gaffney as well, who also struggled (to a lesser degree) to keep his man from getting past him. Park a shot blocker in the paint and this is less of an issue and our ability to guard tight outside improves. It's what Calhoun did for years. It's what the Celtics did with Russell ("hey Bill").

Will Hurley change things? I don't know. He's got Clingan coming in, and I don't see how he can play defense in our current system. Calhoun made his shift after we started recruiting real 5s. Maybe Hurley will as well. This is the year to do it. Sanogo (or whoever is the 5) shouldn't venture past the foul line. Use Whaley and Akok at the 4 to hard hedge if you need to, they can both recover quickly.
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I guess I'm just not as down on Hurley's defensive system as you. I know you love to rail on the hard hedge every chance you get, but the data just doesn't back it up. It was gonna an issue for Sanogo all year until all of a sudden at the end of the year it wasn't and Sanogo was playing good to great defense. Now it's gonna be an issue for Clingan. There's definitely room for adjustments with Hurley and he can incorporate zone at times, but it's just not as simple as hard hedge = bad and needs to be eliminated.

In 2021 you can't just say the 5 should never go past the free throw line, it doesn't work. It's an old school mentality that's even more evidenced by all the examples you've used to support your points (Thabeet/Bill Russell)
 
HuskyHawk said:
Maybe look at my post just before that where I said he was hurt by our scheme. It's similar to what @August_West said. We can perhaps disagree a bit on his team defense, it was better before his ACL injury. But he can't keep most of the people he guards outside from blowing by him and he can't handle anybody physical inside. He can lay off a bit of shorter guys and use his length to bother their shot. But the real issue is that our defense too frequently asks our 5 to vacate the lane and hedge outside, which is an open invitation to attack the rim. I believe this is a problem for Gaffney as well, who also struggled (to a lesser degree) to keep his man from getting past him. Park a shot blocker in the paint and this is less of an issue and our ability to guard tight outside improves. It's what Calhoun did for years. It's what the Celtics did with Russell ("hey Bill").

Will Hurley change things? I don't know. He's got Clingan coming in, and I don't see how he can play defense in our current system. Calhoun made his shift after we started recruiting real 5s. Maybe Hurley will as well. This is the year to do it. Sanogo (or whoever is the 5) shouldn't venture past the foul line. Use Whaley and Akok at the 4 to hard hedge if you need to, they can both recover quickly.
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Hedging with the big man is significantly more effective when you have a shotblocker at the 4 like Whaley or Akok or Johnson parked in the paint. Those 3 will probably be our rotation at the 4, so I expect our defense to look more cohesive when Sanogo or Whaley at the 5 hedges hard.

Way more important for us to have athletes and shotblockers to defend the rim at the 3 and 4 than it is for the center in our scheme, oddly enough. Sanogo was a smart recruitment in that regard, though he does need to quicken his feet for hedging.
 
husky429 said:
Hedging with the big man is significantly more effective when you have a shotblocker at the 4 like Whaley or Akok or Johnson parked in the paint. Those 3 will probably be our rotation at the 4, so I expect our defense to look more cohesive when Sanogo or Whaley at the 5 hedges hard.

Way more important for us to have athletes and shotblockers to defend the rim at the 3 and 4 than it is for the center in our scheme, oddly enough. Sanogo was a smart recruitment in that regard, though he does need to quicken his feet for hedging.
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Agree with this. Shot blockers at both the 4 and 5 improve things dramatically. And Jackson can do that at the 3 as well. It's not just as simple as the 5 staying put, although having Carlton chase out to the 3 and beyond was dumb. I also dislike when we chase guys who aren't actually good shooters. Out opponents don't chase Sanogo out there, they keep the 5 back. We too often got suckered into it and left the rim open.
 
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