Holly Warlick's "Over The Top" RX To Loss

[JordyG]

How can there possibly be? Just ask them, once a Lady Vol always a Lady Vol. They proudly wear the uniforms of the institution. They represent the Univ of TN. They are the University of TN. Hell the players are MORE the University of TN than the fans are. They have more invested.

What you don't have a concept of is the depth of wickedness, the depravity, the obscenity that is the University of Tennessee. You think of it as some school that plays sports, some "rival" to be hated. NO! It is so much more. It is pure evil. Dante's Inferno has nothing on the University of Tennessee. And in the deepest, darkest pit of this diabolical place are the Lady Vols.

The University of Tennessee as an unlanced boil. I had to give it a like. Funny is just funny.

Ladies and gentlemen meyers7. He'll be here all week. Please leave by the exits located in the back and side doors. Thank you and good evening.

 

[CocoHusky]

We've been down this road in another area. I see the vast institution of Tenn separate from a group of kids who will only be there for at best 4 years. A group of kids, as I will remind you, that often commit as young as 14 and 15 to an institution of which they have little or no knowledge of its history. So enlighten me. Do you see these babes as part and parcel of Tenn so therefore their choice of this evil institution makes them guilty to its past by association? A sort of ignorance is no excuse, tarred by the same brush thing or something else. Please enlighten me and others here since I clearly have no concept.

It is not guilt by association, it is an association made by bad choices -therefore guilty. Those choices to go in the first place and stay in the second should be make in consideration of all aspects of the institution including its history. The association does not only last 4 years it is a permanent association that partially defines a person for life.

"I will be a Lady Vol for life" -Mercedes Russell in postgame press conference.
Why are these choices bad? Mainly because there is a significant history of failure (part of the institutions history) that is being ignored or dismissed. Candace Parker was 15 or 16 when she got this handwritten note from Pat.
The note in part says: "Candace, I think I can help you on and off the court".
This is not much different than pitches that are made to recruits everywhere. What is vastly different is that Pat had the ability to deliver and Holly does not. When a parent or recruit chooses TN and actually falls for this pitch I have no issues saying they are guilty of making a bad choice and associating themselves with an institution that has not delivered (under Holly). To put it even more bluntly ever recruit that has signed with Holly had“hands down” infinitely better choices.

 

[JordyG]

It is not guilt by association, it is an association made by bad choices -therefore guilty. Those choices to go in the first place and stay in the second should be make in consideration of all aspects of the institution including its history. The association does not only last 4 years it is a permanent association that partially defines a person for life.

"I will be a Lady Vol for life" -Mercedes Russell in postgame press conference.
Why are these choices bad? Mainly because there is a significant history of failure (part of the institutions history) that is being ignored or dismissed. Candace Parker was 15 or 16 when she got this handwritten note from Pat.
The note in part says: "Candace, I think I can help you on and off the court".
This is not much different than pitches that are made to recruits everywhere. What is vastly different is that Pat had the ability to deliver and Holly does not. When a parent or recruit chooses TN and actually falls for this pitch I have no issues saying they are guilty of making a bad choice and associating themselves with an institution that has not delivered (under Holly). To put it even more bluntly ever recruit that has signed with Holly had“hands down” infinitely better choices.

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

This sounds familar. Sister Joan in 5 grade said: We can condemm the sin but we still have to love the sinner.
I think Sister Joan would be proud of me because although I hate TN, there are some TN players that I do love. Anyone who says anthing bad about Draya Carter for example is gonna have to:

 

[JordyG]

This sounds familar. Sister Joan in 5 grade said: We can condemm the sin but we still have to love the sinner.
I think Sister Joan would be proud of me because although I hate TN, there are some TN players that I do love. Anyone who says anthing bad about Draya Carter for example is gonna have to:

And every time I look at Mercedes Russell's sweet sensitive face or hear her voice I break out into a smile. I also feel that way for bunch of players on a lot of teams. Maybe I am tragically flawed.

 

[GoUconn7961]

I will never have one iota of sympathy for the Vols. Players have options and can go anywhere they're recruited. If they choose the Holly system after what they've seen then so be it.

 

[mhshuskies]

Which seat is hotter, Holly Warwick’s or Kevin McGuff’s?

 

[j66kicker]

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

All true. But this is sports, not the 'real world.' Can't I just hate Tennessee and feel good about it?

 

[augustaTC]

I doubt that. Geno will have imput and he certainly does not appear to be someone swayed by nepotism like Pat was with Holly.

From a recent piece on HW - The late, great Al McGwire once said of the men's coaching jobs at UCLA and Kentucky after the retirements of the legendary John Wooden and Adolph Rupp, "You never want to be the guy to replace a legend. You want to be the guy who replaces the guy who replaces the legend."

This perfectly describes the difficulty any coach (including Shea, Marissa, Jenn, or any other Geno disciple) will have following Geno. First of all, the fans won't tolerate much of a drop-off in achievement. We have been so spoiled the past 25 years!

Second, most recruits are savvy enough to realize they won't be coached by/playing for the legend and that the history of a program only goes so far. Tennessee stands as the perfect object lesson of this. And all the other recruiters will remind them of this incessantly.

Neither group is going to allow much of a honeymoon, at least IMHO.

Will be interesting to watch whenever the transition takes place (and I do hope I'm way off base). Come to think of it, I may be drooling and staring blankly at TV screens when it happens, so I'll miss the whole darn process!

 

[bballnut90]

Which seat is hotter, Holly Warwick’s or Kevin McGuff’s?

This year it should be Holly’s seat. Holly is slowly destroying what was once the most elite program in women’s basketball for quite some time. Back to back early exits, a huge disgruntled fan base and poor results for 3 years now means she should be on the hot seat. Her recruiting efforts and all the turmoil in the Tennessee athletic department means she’s likely safe for another season. IMO, next year’s team has the most meager outlook of any Tennessee team in quite some time.

McGuff took a struggling program and actually improved them quite a bit with the talent he was able to bring in. They won the Big Ten this year, but they’ve massively underperformed relative to expectations with all the talent they have. The way they got romped at home by an 11 seed in the 2nd round is downright embarrassing. Once next year hits and Ohio State is a borderline .500 team, he’ll be out of a job.


If I had betting money, I think both are safe another year.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Tennessee Lady Vol Rennia Davis: 'I'm not losing in the second round ever again'

Goals and expectations in Knoxville are not what they once were.

Some interpretations:

(1) We’ll lose in the first round.

(2) We’ll make it to at least the third round of the WNIT;

(3) I’m transferring my butt out of here.

 

[JordyG]

All true. But this is sports, not the 'real world.' Can't I just hate Tennessee and feel good about it?

Of course. I hate the Yankees. Do you? Yet I could never hate Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter or a host of other Yankees. Why can't some people separate people from their institutions? They're not the same. I've even heard captured terrorists say they hate America but like individual Americans.

 

[DefenseBB]

Why are these choices bad? Mainly because there is a significant history of failure (part of the institutions history) that is being ignored or dismissed....
The note in part says: "Candace, I think I can help you on and off the court".
This is not much different than pitches that are made to recruits everywhere. What is vastly different is that Pat had the ability to deliver and Holly does not. When a parent or recruit chooses TN and actually falls for this pitch I have no issues saying they are guilty of making a bad choice and associating themselves with an institution that has not delivered (under Holly). To put it even more bluntly ever recruit that has signed with Holly had“hands down” infinitely better choices.

Ok, I have to take issue with how far or how much impunity is being directed at life skills vs. sport achievements.

On the sports level, the LVs are not an elite, player development program they once were. Them still having the same high expectations with no evidence to warrant those aspirations is one thing to mock and openly jeer the fans and the institution. A player chooses the school for two reasons- Basketball and an education. To deride the quality of basketball is fare but to deride, insult and bash whether Holly or anyone has not helped or failed to support the players off the court is blatant hogwash. While I laugh openly at Michelle Marciniaks comments as ludicrous that the players failed, Michelle has been VERY SUCCESSFUL in life ie off the court as have many LV who just like the UConn family, are very close and supportive of each other and the program.

So the team didn’t win as many games as they thought they could, that is a failure for all but 1 team each year. The institution has not failed them if they get a degree, leverage their relationships with former players and alumni and get a job and have fun and productive lives, while enjoying the friends and teammate s they made and had at UT.

That is what Mercedes meant and I laud her for that. I have been vocal that I felt Mercedes was done unjustly by a lack of coaching to not reach her SPORTS potential, but I am happy for her if she is happy as we all should be. We cannot act like we know they have failed in their young lives just because they lose more basketball gamesmanship than we think they should have.

Coco, I don’t think you were trying to deride these young ladies and all those that went before them on their life choices UT helped afford them vs. basketball skills that the program may have been underachieving their efforts on but it came off a bit too aggressive in my opinion.

 

[DefenseBB]

Of course. I hate the Yankees. Do you? Yet I could never hate Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter or a host of other Yankees. Why can't some people separate people from their institutions? They're not the same. I've even heard captured terrorists say they hate America but like individual Americans.

Jealous much?

 

[Plebe]

Tennessee Lady Vol Rennia Davis: 'I'm not losing in the second round ever again'

Translation: Tennessee will fail to advance to the second round for at least the next three years.

Ms. Davis should be careful what she wishes for, or at least how she words her wishes.

 

[j66kicker]

View attachment 29673

Of course. I hate the Yankees. Do you? Yet I could never hate Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter or a host of other Yankees. Why can't some people separate people from their institutions? They're not the same. I've even heard captured terrorists say they hate America but like individual Americans.

Just for the record, I'm a die-hard Yankee fan since I was 8 or 9 years old. Don't hate the Red Sox though. Well... I don't actually 'like' the Red Sox but, until fairly recently, they were just another mediocre wannabe team whose fans hated the Yankees. So I don't hate Ted Williams or Yaz or Carlton Fisk or Jim Rice (but none of them ever won anything, so who cares?). I don't even hate the juicers who did finally win - Big Papi, Manny Ramirez, etc. But, man, I do hate Tennessee.

But you're a New Yorker, aren't you? Who's your baseball team?

 

[CocoHusky]

Coco, I don’t think you were trying to deride these young ladies and all those that went before them on their life choices UT helped afford them vs. basketball skills that the program may have been underachieving their efforts on but it came off a bit too aggressive in my opinion.

I not even sure what that even means. I do not deride these young ladies, I deride the choice they make to attend and play basketball at the University of TN. If by "aggressive" you mean I'm extending that derision to the entire University I would not disagree with you too strongly because the University of TN is not that highly regarded an academic institution. To be blunt and now repetitive: The players that choose to go to TN ALL have several better choices for basketball development and academics! Is that aggressive enough for you?

 

[JordyG]

View attachment 29673
Just for the record, I'm a die-hard Yankee fan since I was 8 or 9 years old. Don't hate the Red Sox though. Well... I don't actually 'like' the Red Sox but, until fairly recently, they were just another mediocre wannabe team whose fans hated the Yankees. So I don't hate Ted Williams or Yaz or Carlton Fisk or Jim Rice (but none of them ever won anything, so who cares?). I don't even hate the juicers who did finally win - Big Papi, Manny Ramirez, etc. But, man, I do hate Tennessee.

But you're a New Yorker, aren't you? Who's your baseball team?

The rest of what I said still stands.

 

[DefenseBB]

I not even sure what that even means. I do not deride these young ladies, I deride the choice they make to attend and play basketball at the University of TN. If by "aggressive" you mean I'm extending that derision to the entire University I would not disagree with you too strongly because the University of TN is not that highly regarded an academic institution. To be blunt and now repetitive: The players that choose to go to TN ALL have several better choices for basketball development and academics! Is that aggressive enough for you?

Let me help you out-impune Holly’s coaching, deride their fans all you want but to belittle anyone who gets an education, participates in high level athletics, stays committed to that group and succeeds in life shows you to be a small person. Don’t get too high and mighty on UConn vs. other educational institutions. There are plenty of Harvard grads unemployed contributing nothing to life while many community school grads are doing wonderful things with their lives. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[CL82]

May they keep Holly as head coach forever... Amen!!!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I find the reveling in the distress of the young women who play for Tennessee to be distasteful in the extreme. Some of the LV fans, specifically the Tin Foil Hat Brigade over on the Summitt, deserve all the suffering they can get but most Tennessee fans are just like us - rooting for their team and hoping for the best for their players.

If people find the nastiness of a few of the LV fans so awful, why are they acting exactly like them? I had hopes we were above childish pettiness.

Nan- - -I know where you're coming from, but what TN Nation did was to take a sports rivalry to a level that no player, coach, fan, administrator, should ever go! They fabricated the meanest of lies to defend the belief that Pat Summitt couldn't understand that Maya Moore could chose Geno Auriemma/UCONN over Her/TN without having to cheat to do it! How could Maya Moore chose him over me! He had to have cheated!
Then to get back at Maya, Geno & UCONN they wrote up about 60 pages of out right lies and sent it to the NCAA to destroy UCONN! Luckily the NCAA finally had the good sense to verify that all the lies were wrong and unproven!
To accuse Geno of buying a house for Maya's Mom, and financing her business, of accusing Sue Bird & Diana Taurasi of meeting Maya at the airport, taking her to lunch, then driving her to the campus for her visit which Sue and DT proved false by showing they were in Moscow playing in a Euro Game at the exact time they were supposed to be in CT with Maya, that fans were blatantly involved in influencing Maya to come to UCONN, among other lies!
And the TN Nation continue these lies to this date, I can understand why many UCONN fans, including myself, will not forget or forgive TN! Again I don't revel in the misery of the current players who had no part in this fiasco, but for the majority of fans, the coaches, and the administrators I do enjoy THEIR misery!

 

[HuskyNan]

To explain a bit more about my op in this thread; there were posts, now deleted, where posters went a mile beyond fan “hate” of another team to openly mocking the young women themselves. I was appalled.

 

[meyers7]

The University of Tennessee as an unlanced boil. I had to give it a like. Funny is just funny.

Ladies and gentlemen meyers7. He'll be here all week. Please leave by the exits located in the back and side doors. Thank you and good evening.

Except Saturday, I'll be in Albany.

 

[meyers7]

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

According to Jordy, just a mistake:

 

[CocoHusky]

Let me help you out-impune Holly’s coaching, deride their fans all you want but to belittle anyone who gets an education, participates in high level athletics, stays committed to that group and succeeds in life shows you to be a small person. Don’t get too high and mighty on UConn vs. other educational institutions. There are plenty of Harvard grads unemployed contributing nothing to life while many community school grads are doing wonderful things with their lives. Is that clear enough for you?

Crystal clear and very imaginative, especially the part about being high and mighty on UCONN vs. other educational institutions-clearly a product of your inner child!

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think Holly is a career follower and was probably a really good assistant coach, but has not a clue as a head coach of how to teach players or coach on the sideline. And whether it is that she has no clue how to hire assistant coaches or she has no clue how to empower them, the assistant coaches have done nothing for the players either. It reminds me of my working career when I would often deal with really stupid mid-level executives and inevitably their assistants would prove to be even dumber as if they were worried to hire competent people who might expose their incompetence.

It has amazed me that in the last six years, no one on the TN staff seems to have a clue of how to play against a zone defense (it probably dates back much earlier, but I didn't notice it and I am not going back to check!) or at least has not been able to instill the fundamentals of zone offense to those teams. This is not dissimilar to Pat going to Harry to learn motion offense and then never really installing it, falling back on the chuck it and rebound that she was happy with. In both cases it comes down to TN getting by on superior athletes and stars, and when they come up against seriously coached teams that have good enough players they are in trouble.

While this whine from Holly is pretty bad, the one thing I think is probably true about it is that the TN message boards can be pretty terrible about specific players and that stuff is not being moderated out. If she has seen what does get posted (and I am sure stuff on twitter is likely no better) then complaining and defending players is not out of line - just a lot better to do it after a good win and not post-game of a disappointing season ending loss.

Mickey DeMoss was the brains. Holly was a clip board carrier with a watch and a stop watch reading what Pat put on that board.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Crystal clear and very imaginative, especially the part about being high and mighty on UCONN vs. other educational institutions-clearly a product of your inner child!

I wish you two would kiss and make up.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

The problem with HW is that she was seen as the continuation of Pat Summit: HW had been coached by PS, had served many years as PS's assistant coach, and had imbibed the PS way. So it was rightly considered that she was part PS herself. So her struggles have disillusioned so many who believed that there should have been a much more seamless transition.

When in the years ahead Coach Geno retires, no one will hold his successor to anything. We all understand that The Coach is sui generis. He can't be replicated. So we'll root for UConn, and hope for success, though we will all understand that no coach could possibly go five full seasons and only lose two games.

When in years to come Coach Geno steps down, it will be the end of an era. Period.

 

[terif831]

Maybe you were looking for these words?

Haha! Maybe.....just a little bit.....

 

[HuskyNan]

The problem with HW is that she was seen as the continuation of Pat Summit: HW had been coached by PS, had served many years as PS's assistant coach, and had imbibed the PS way. So it was rightly considered that she was part PS herself. So her struggles have disillusioned so many who believed that there should have been a much more seamless transition.

When in the years ahead Coach Geno retires, no one will hold his successor to anything. We all understand that The Coach is sui generis. He can't be replicated. So we'll root for UConn, and hope for success, though we will all understand that no coach could possibly go five full seasons and only lose two games.

When in years to come Coach Geno steps down, it will be the end of an era. Period.

I think you put your finger on something important. PHS’s way worked for her largely because of her personality. Her stare was renowned for its fierceness, and rightly so. She could imbue her teams with that passion ad fire - Holly, not so much.

That’s why others that try to copy Geno can get only so far. His personality is on the court, usually conveyed through his point guard - Jen, Diana, Moriah, et al. It’s hard to duplicate the force of the coach’ personality