Holly Warlick's "Over The Top" RX To Loss

[HuskyNan]

I think if you look at the last couple of national championship teams. The point guard play was key. Bobbitt and Jolly were both playing at a high level. Now Westbrook was a freshman this year. Tough for a freshman. She had some ups and downs. I expect her game to improve a good bit. Now she has a year of playing and a off-season to get better. I think both Westbrook and Hayes have the ability to lead their team to a FF.

Stwainfan, I have never seen such a loyal fan as you. Kudos to you for your steadfastness. But have you never noticed how awful the offense is? If the opponent goes into a zone, the LVs don’t have the first idea of what to do. The players also seen incapable of creating their own shots so the product on the floor looks like some kind of team put together for a pick up game. How do you not see that? Unless the LVs get a new coach, this team will never see a Final Four, no matter how talented the team is.

 

[j66kicker]

Well Maria Cornelius has her back as usual. Lady Vols bow out of NCAA tourney

...and she blames the refs: 23 free throws for OSU to 10 for TN. Plus all those unwhistled moving screens and push offs. (How can this happen on the Ladyvol home court??)

 

[mbr33ct]

Post copied from Orange Mt Designs:

from POST FROM MICHELLE MARCINIAK:

Ok so it's been 4 hours and I have some words, not many but some as it relates to our #ladyvols.

I was a player, so was Abby and Pashen and Tamika and Semeka and Chamique and Candice and Dawn and Shelley and Lisa and Pam and and and.

And I'm sorry but you just can't blame this on the coach. Players play. Players make plays. Players win games. Players make free throws or they don't. Players are on the court. Players are in control. Players contest shots. Players get defensive stops. Players make or cause turnovers. Players take charges or punk out and don't sacrifice their bodies to do so. Players hit chippies or they don't. Players dive after loose balls or they choose not to. Players are taught by their leaders, their coaches and I cannot stress enough the experience of this staff who is coaching these kids....is beyond what any other program can ask for. The grass is NOT greener on the other side folks. Players need to mature. Players need to value winning. Players need to feel the pain. So the next time when pain is looming, it feels different and therefore they will get a different outcome. I really don't care if some fans don't agree with what I am saying but we have great players and great players need to step up as they always have in the TN program. Onus is on the players. I will remind everyone that in 1996, we were 5 years without a Championship and Pat was as stressed as anyone EVER. She put the blame ON US to win. Mark my word, it was ours to win or not. So please before you throw a baby out with the bathwater in blaming Holly, just remember it's a journey, not a sprint. In today's Me first, Video game reset world, everyone wants to get rid of the coach and think it will make it all right. Not so people. Holly is a Pat's protege. She's got her blue print mapped in her body, soul and mind. You won't get any better, any closer to Pat than Holly. I'd like everyone to think about this post as we tend not to blame the players only the coaches. Trust me, Pat blamed us and held us responsible. Time for the players to own up. Whether anyone likes to read this or not, it's true and you can't argue it because I have been there and done that. 18 to 21 year olds are adults.

Thank You Michelle MARCINIAK...for well spoken message! Blessings!

If I understand this correctly, MARCINIAK says "I'm sorry but you can't blame this on the coach." and puts it all on the "Players".

From the post game presser Holly goes about protecting her players with the now infamous quotes.

“Sometimes the things that are thrown at these kids are unfair,” an emotional Warlick said. “They come here wanting to learn and get better and just play the game. They get criticized quite a bit."

Later she added: "This isn't about winning or losing. It's about young ladies getting better on and off the court and I don't think they deserve half the crap thrown at them."

Has MARCINIAK basically "criticized" and thrown "half the crap" at the players?

 

[LoTrader]

Coaches Warlick and Lockwood made no mention of the officiating, but Maria talks of Mercedes being consistently hacked with no calls.... It was interesting hearing Dean's take on things... usually do not hear from him.... he talks a good game... but of course he does not rule the roost.... he talks about Tennessee needing to be tougher and show more effort.... they have lacked that for the last few years.... I have seldom seen them play a full 40 minutes of tough basketball.... parts of games yes... but it has to be a full throttle effort if they are to compete at the highest level... TN needs to figure out how to build a fluid team.... work on fundamentals... and drawing the potential out of its players.... Too many of them are graduating with their music left in them.

I was on the Baylor blog site, and there was a Tennessee poster who could not believe: 1. How bad the officiating was against Tennessee in the OSU game, and 2. OSU players were DIRTY? I have never heard anyone accuse OSU Players as DIRTY. That was a 1st.

 

[stwainfan]

Stwainfan, I have never seen such a loyal fan as you. Kudos to you for your steadfastness. But have you never noticed how awful the offense is? If the opponent goes into a zone, the LVs don’t have the first idea of what to do. The players also seen incapable of creating their own shots so the product on the floor looks like some kind of team put together for a pick up game. How do you not see that? Unless the LVs get a new coach, this team will never see a Final Four, no matter how talented the team is.

Thanks. Freshman year is difficult. It's a learning experience. All freshman go though ups and downs. The point guard position is the most important position. I think both players will improve a lot next season. I think One thing this team lacked was there were three seniors. Then relied on three freshman. There wasn't much in between.

 

[stwainfan]

If I understand this correctly, MARCINIAK says "I'm sorry but you can't blame this on the coach." and puts it all on the "Players".

From the post game presser Holly goes about protecting her players with the now infamous quotes.

“Sometimes the things that are thrown at these kids are unfair,” an emotional Warlick said. “They come here wanting to learn and get better and just play the game. They get criticized quite a bit."

Later she added: "This isn't about winning or losing. It's about young ladies getting better on and off the court and I don't think they deserve half the crap thrown at them."

Has MARCINIAK basically "criticized" and thrown "half the crap" at the players?

Holly doesn't go play defense or take a shot. There was something Pat used to say. It's better to be a player led team than a coach led team. Meaning the players have to go and do it.

 

[willtalk]

We may be seeing out future..... When Geno leaves

I doubt that. Geno will have imput and he certainly does not appear to be someone swayed by nepotism like Pat was with Holly.

 

[LoTrader]

...and she blames the refs: 23 free throws for OSU to 10 for TN. Plus all those unwhistled moving screens and push offs. (How can this happen on the Ladyvol home court??)

What was interesting is that the assistant coach for Tennessee focused on "toughness" needs to improve at Tennessee. OSU plays tough defense, and, you have to in the NCAA Tournament, or you are going home. Tennessee has great athletes, they just need to be schooled in a system that teaches them how to play defense (individually, but mostly as a team), and the level of physicality required in the NCAA Tournament.

 

[ConnecticutBB]

I think if you look at the last couple of national championship teams. The point guard play was key. Bobbitt and Jolly were both playing at a high level. Now Westbrook was a freshman this year. Tough for a freshman. She had some ups and downs. I expect her game to improve a good bit. Now she has a year of playing and a off-season to get better. I think both Westbrook and Hayes have the ability to lead their team to a FF.

Transfer now...run as fast as you can..there are plenty of great college programs to be found.

 

[Bronx23]

Yes the players have to do all those things starting with taking responsibility.
But it's also true that coaching matters. Pat was the greatest coach during her era or at least til the later parts of her era. The strength and force of her personality helped will her players to success. I'm not sure her style of play works as well as it used to. As many others have pointed out, getting the best players and throwing it up there and either making them or getting offensive rebounds because your players are bigger and stronger, no longer as workable.
Holly can't change her style, ways and trying to be Pat! #1 she is not Pat and you can't be what you're not! #2 while Pat would do better clearly with these same players, she wouldn't be as successful now with the U Conn style of play becoming more prevalent of ball movement and sharing it!
Also the better teams are no longer intimidated, nor should they be, of Tenn! Many still are of U Conn!
Holly needs to go immediately and obviously has a booster in high places. Obviously they care more about her being Pat's 2nd hand or mentee than being a top notch program. She can recruit but not coach, and you need to do both!
Bronx23

 

[ConnecticutBB]

Yes the players have to do all those things starting with taking responsibility.
But it's also true that coaching matters. Pat was the greatest coach during her era or at least til the later parts of her era. The strength and force of her personality helped will her players to success. I'm not sure her style of play works as well as it used to. As many others have pointed out, getting the best players and throwing it up there and either making them or getting offensive rebounds because your players are bigger and stronger, no longer as workable.
Holly can't change her style, ways and trying to be Pat! #1 she is not Pat and you can't be what you're not! #2 while Pat would do better clearly with these same players, she wouldn't be as successful now with the U Conn style of play becoming more prevalent of ball movement and sharing it!
Also the better teams are no longer intimidated, nor should they be, of Tenn! Many still are of U Conn!
Holly needs to go immediately and obviously has a booster in high places. Obviously they care more about her being Pat's 2nd hand or mentee than being a top notch program. She can recruit but not coach, and you need to do both!
Bronx23

Someone correct if I am wrong but DeMoss coach along side Pat & I understand she did most of the recruiting & did it well. She later took on a head coaching job ( my memory has failed me & can not remember the school) She was not as successful but had the courage to remove herself from the program & step back into what she does best. Having said that...Holly needs to realize her position might just be an a Good assistant coach..what do others think?

 

[CocoHusky]

.
Has MARCINIAK basically "criticized" and thrown "half the crap" at the players?

No, not half, ALL! Marciniak is as delusional as the rest of the tin foil brigade for living on past glory. Earth to Marciniak: "Pat Blue print" was failing the Lady Vols before Pat stepped down as coach! What makes her think that that same blue print could save Holly now?

 

[JoePgh]

Not too many coaches would dismiss that record.

Do you honestly think that if Doug Bruno, Vic Schaefer, Jose Fernandez, Gary Blair, Scott Rueck, Kelly Graves, or Tara Vanderveer (never mind Geno) had had the rosters that Tennessee had in those 2012-2018 years, that they would have had those results? I think any of those coaches would have gotten 3 or 4 Final Fours and possibly 1 or 2 NC's in those years. Vic Schaefer has proved it with a roster in Starkville that is less talented (and less accomplished in high school) than the Tennessee roster.

So, given the rosters, Holly's record is nothing to be proud of.

Also, I agree with those who say that when Holly deplores criticism of the players, she is really talking about criticism of herself. Ironically, on VolNation, it is only Holly's defenders who are seriously critical of the players (saying that Holly can't make them make shots or play defense, etc.). Everyone else (the great majority, apparently) do not blame the players but blame Holly (solely or primarily) for the results that she has gotten with those players.

More ironically, one of the things that Holly apparently has not done is to blame the players (i.e., hold them accountable) for their own poor performances. If she blamed the players more often or more convincingly, others might blame both her and the players less, because Tennessee would win more games against serious opposition.

 

[Bronx23]

I think if you look at the last couple of national championship teams. The point guard play was key. Bobbitt and Jolly were both playing at a high level. Now Westbrook was a freshman this year. Tough for a freshman. She had some ups and downs. I expect her game to improve a good bit. Now she has a year of playing and a off-season to get better. I think both Westbrook and Hayes have the ability to lead their team to a FF.

Sorry won't happen with HW as a coach!
Even with their both improving and yes point guard play being so important.
Bronx23

 

[CocoHusky]

Holly doesn't go play defense or take a shot. There was something Pat used to say. It's better to be a player led team than a coach led team. Meaning the players have to go and do it.

It is however Holly's job to develop the player and put them into the right position to succeed. She is failing miserably.

 

[mbr33ct]

Holly doesn't go play defense or take a shot. There was something Pat used to say. It's better to be a player led team than a coach led team. Meaning the players have to go and do it.

...I couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Kaizen]

I think One thing this team lacked was there were three seniors. Then relied on three freshman. There wasn't much in between.

The 4 players played the most mins are Russel, Nared, Jackson and Davis. Where are "they relied on three freshmen"?

 

[Bayareahusky]

I am one who always has believed that the coach is in total control of all that happens in the program.... controls what they work on in practice... calls the defense and offense.... and is responsible for all the assistant coaches and ultimately the development of the players.... how many times have we heard the same things.... after the games.... we shot the ball too quickly... Dean said it this time... it almost always is said.... you would think that this is something that should be corrected..... the other team wanted it more.... i can't teach effort.... I told them to do this but they didnt want to do it.... CHW is a Head Coach with the DNA of an assistant coach.... she needs to demand respect from her players.... and require them to do things right... if they do not want to get in a defensive posture..... then sit them down and play players who will do it... if players are quick shooting.... take them out and sit them down... if players have bad attitude or are not hustling to your liking then sit them down.... CHW is driving down the highway at 55 mph with hands at 10 and 2, and watching SC, Miss St, and others blow past her....

 

[stwainfan]

The 4 players played the most mins are Russel, Nared, Jackson and Davis. Where are "they relied on three freshmen"?

Westbrook, Hayes, and Davis were in most of the time. When it was late in game.

 

[JordyG]

You have no concept of what the University of Tennessee is. Until you do, it would be nice if you didn't chastise those that do.

I am not talking about the university. You are. I'm talking about the young women, babies really, who play for them. I hate to disappoint you, but they are human beings, just as you or I. Because you think they made a mistake in playing for an institution you hate, maybe even deservedly so, doesn't make them bad people. Again I remind you, perhaps someone should go back in the past and punish you for every bad mistake you made at that age. Or maybe perhaps demonize you for those minor infringements of the law that you committed then?

 

[JordyG]

Post copied from Orange Mt Designs:

from POST FROM MICHELLE MARCINIAK:

Ok so it's been 4 hours and I have some words, not many but some as it relates to our #ladyvols.

I was a player, so was Abby and Pashen and Tamika and Semeka and Chamique and Candice and Dawn and Shelley and Lisa and Pam and and and.

And I'm sorry but you just can't blame this on the coach. Players play. Players make plays. Players win games. Players make free throws or they don't. Players are on the court. Players are in control. Players contest shots. Players get defensive stops. Players make or cause turnovers. Players take charges or punk out and don't sacrifice their bodies to do so. Players hit chippies or they don't. Players dive after loose balls or they choose not to. Players are taught by their leaders, their coaches and I cannot stress enough the experience of this staff who is coaching these kids....is beyond what any other program can ask for. The grass is NOT greener on the other side folks. Players need to mature. Players need to value winning. Players need to feel the pain. So the next time when pain is looming, it feels different and therefore they will get a different outcome. I really don't care if some fans don't agree with what I am saying but we have great players and great players need to step up as they always have in the TN program. Onus is on the players. I will remind everyone that in 1996, we were 5 years without a Championship and Pat was as stressed as anyone EVER. She put the blame ON US to win. Mark my word, it was ours to win or not. So please before you throw a baby out with the bathwater in blaming Holly, just remember it's a journey, not a sprint. In today's Me first, Video game reset world, everyone wants to get rid of the coach and think it will make it all right. Not so people. Holly is a Pat's protege. She's got her blue print mapped in her body, soul and mind. You won't get any better, any closer to Pat than Holly. I'd like everyone to think about this post as we tend not to blame the players only the coaches. Trust me, Pat blamed us and held us responsible. Time for the players to own up. Whether anyone likes to read this or not, it's true and you can't argue it because I have been there and done that. 18 to 21 year olds are adults.

Thank You Michelle MARCINIAK...for well spoken message! Blessings!

Sorry guy, but a team is a direct reflection of the coach and her/his philosophies. Any coach who doesn't coach up a #1 HS MDAA to at least one first team AA in 4 years is in dereliction of the player, the team, the institution and the fans. Further, any coach that only teaches one side of the court, either offense or defense, fails not only all of the above, but themselves as well.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Oh, I like that. Yep, not Warlick's fault. It's on the players. Should be giving Warlick a lifetime contract.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think if you look at the last couple of national championship teams. The point guard play was key. Bobbitt and Jolly were both playing at a high level. Now Westbrook was a freshman this year. Tough for a freshman. She had some ups and downs. I expect her game to improve a good bit. Now she has a year of playing and a off-season to get better. I think both Westbrook and Hayes have the ability to lead their team to a FF.

Sorry @stwainfan but just wait 'til next year has been the Tenn battle cry for far to long. True, she has a year under her belt as PG, but it's a year of Holly's tutelage, so it's more like a third of a year. I for one have enjoyed Tenn's suffering enough. FAHR Holly, get a real coach, and once again rise up!

 

[DefenseBB]

@JordyG said some good things and some things that have become trivial or easy fodder on this board in my view. Let me state ahead of time, I dislike Tennessee Fans more than anything but respect the program, what the school tries to do and what Pat Summitt still stands for. My comments will certainly agitate some:

If I may elaborate some...Jordy nailed the comment on Russell-I said it yesterday that she is the 1st #1 prospect to never make an All-American team. I also think @RockyMTblue2 was being sarcastic that he hoped Dean would be named HC. That to me, is the definition of insanity-you tried it once (hiring an assistant on the team) and it didn't work, go elsewhere.

Where I got lost with Jordy was the playing time comment and then his segue to the list of coaches. On his playing time:

• I have to believe that yes, given the 2 years on a down cycle of recruiting, she probably did promise minutes to Anastasia Hayes as they needed a point guard and
• Yes, she also could have promised minutes to Evina Westbrook, who as the #2 player in the class would warrant playing time given how many needs the LV's had this year and both did, in fact did play as they were needed. I don't know that she promised the others significant playing time.
• The other follow-up would be let's say she did promise them playing time because the team was light on talent, so what? That's not a disgrace per se', the disgrace is the fact she has not been able to develop the players even over the year as they make the same mistakes again and again. I know @stwainfan has postulated that Nared and Russell have improved over the years at UT and I would agree, whether that is attributable to CHW or the players themselves and any of the camps or squads they participate in over the summer is what is debatable. Both attended the USA camp this summer and made the squad.

For the coaching comment that Jordy stated, the issue is different for each of the coaches he mentioned.

• Doug, for all his coaching acumen, cannot draw top talent to DePaul. So while we all agree he is pretty good at coaching, part of the role is to get top talent, which he has not been able to do. That has to be on him in not getting really good players but yet we all give him a pass and give excuses why he can't get talent. Yes he can coach players up, but he's been to 2 sweet 16's in his career-that's it. Heck, Holly has been to 3 elite 8's. Geno has said the #1 skill is to get the really good players.
• Rueck is similar to Bruno, he has not brought in truly elite talent but that is changing with the #7 recruit next year, Aquino and with Destiny Slocum (#7 from 2016) becoming eligible so he may have turned the corner in getting elite talent. It will also help that he may entice the Oregon trail to be cutoff to Tenn and head towards Corvallis.
• Graves is a couple years ahead of Rueck in getting recruits, but can he coach as well as Scott remains to be seen. Will Kelly outcoach McGraw and get to a final four????
• Tara is odd in that for all her accomplishments, she goes through droughts of elite talent, now, this year, she has 6 McDonald's AA's on the squad, most of which are Fresh and Soph's so she could be in for a nice run. No one can or should question her ability on either front. While she has won 2 NC's and that was in 1990 and 1992 and she has not capitalized since, not really a good thing.

This board tends to call coaches who recruit well but don't win as much as perceived to be underachievers-See Kim Mulkey, Brenda Frese, Joanne P McCallie, Jeff Walz and now Karen Aston and in some courts, even Muffet McGraw is perceived as underachieving given the recruits she gets. We tend to give far too much leeway to anyone from the Geno Tree of coaching (either assistants or friends-Staley included) despite ample evidence of many of them being slightly better than average and still far below Holly.

My point is to state recruiting is a skill of its own and a critical skill just as or more important than the actual coaching to truly be successful. Yes, she's underachieved, yes, she's in over her head and yes, she is simply too nice to be effective. The scary thing is she's done pretty well despite being pretty inept...

Last, here's another set of articles late last night touting more of the same:
Tennessee Lady Vols: Holly Warlick Should Officially be on the Hot Seat

Wiedmer: Fate of Lady Vols coach Holly Warlick not an easy call for Phillip Fulmer

 

[UcMiami]

Holly doesn't go play defense or take a shot. There was something Pat used to say. It's better to be a player led team than a coach led team. Meaning the players have to go and do it.

Stwainfan - really enjoy your posting here, and like most of you insights. I had seen the MM post already and other defenses of Holly, and there is no question that what happens between the lines in any given game is mostly on the players. BUT ... what good coaching depends on is what happens day to day in practice and in the disciplining of players to either follow the coaching or sit. And teaching them enough so that when you recognize problems coming up in a game, they have the skill and knowledge to allow you to make adjustments in how the team plays. And it is true on both sides of the ball.

Nan and I and others point to TN and the inability to play coherent offense against a good zone defense, and that has been true for a long time, and it is a coach's responsibility to make sure players know to populate the short corner and the free throw line area and make sure the ball is constantly moving into and out of those areas stressing the gaps in the zones, and yet that almost never happens in the TN offense. While on the other end, TN defenses consistently get hurt by really poor help and rotations, and you are hard pressed to see any improvements in player defensive technique. Yelling about getting in a stance and getting arms up is about all I see from TN coaches. 20 years ago maybe that was all that was necessary, but with kids getting so little team coaching prior to college now, they need to be taught about footwork and over-playing and steering their player into their help defenders, and rotation, and everything else.

There has maybe been over-hyping of TN recruits through the years since 2008, but there has also been an awful lot of talent entering the program, and yet almost every year's senior class has been dubbed 'disappointing' as they graduate. That cannot all be on the players, at some point you have to look at the coaches and assign them the blame for not developing that HS talent.