Holly Warlick's "Over The Top" RX To Loss

[JordyG]

As has been said many times, WCBB has past Tennessee by. The game has past Tennessee by. The chuck and rebound offense of years ago no longer works. Just look at teams like Oregon State, Oregon, ND, Buffalo or Central Michigan. Even our own Quinnipiac. Great ball movement, screens, back door cuts and pick and rolls. All these teams can play against man to man and/ or zones defenses. All those are conspicuously absent from Tennessee's offense.

Its all on Holly's shoulders. Unless there is a complete change in basketball philosophy, Tennessee will remain what it is - a second level team.

I've saying for years now that their offense, bruteball I call it, is antiquated. What did Tenn's fans expect? For 6 years their coach has continually taught half the court. That puts the onus on the guards to do most of the work while the forwards stand around and wait for a post entry. This year it was a group of inexperienced guards. Consequently the forwards never learn how to effectively screen, shoot or pick and roll. The guards never learn how to work off screens, move without the ball or set a play. No one learns the many offensive options and variations off of each position. Bruteball depends on getting the biggest, most talented players up front and overpowering teams on offense and defense. Guards don't need to be good shooters as long as they can penetrate and kick.

But the amount of talent on the women's side has continued to increase. As other teams recruited good, long armed players and packed in on the 2/3 the Summitt legacy on offense became less and less effective. Essentially, Tennessee has continued to fail because of the their own success, and Holly's refusal to leave the past behind.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I also think @RockyMTblue2 was being sarcastic

Yeah, I have to work on my sarcasm I guess.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

@JordyG said some good things and some things that have become trivial or easy fodder on this board in my view. Let me state ahead of time, I dislike Tennessee Fans more than anything but respect the program, what the school tries to do and what Pat Summitt still stands for. My comments will certainly agitate some:

If I may elaborate some...Jordy nailed the comment on Russell-I said it yesterday that she is the 1st #1 prospect to never make an All-American team. I also think @RockyMTblue2 was being sarcastic that he hoped Dean would be named HC. That to me, is the definition of insanity-you tried it once (hiring an assistant on the team) and it didn't work, go elsewhere.

Where I got lost with Jordy was the playing time comment and then his segue to the list of coaches. On his playing time:

• I have to believe that yes, given the 2 years on a down cycle of recruiting, she probably did promise minutes to Anastasia Hayes as they needed a point guard and
• Yes, she also could have promised minutes to Evina Westbrook, who as the #2 player in the class would warrant playing time given how many needs the LV's had this year and both did, in fact did play as they were needed. I don't know that she promised the others significant playing time.
• The other follow-up would be let's say she did promise them playing time because the team was light on talent, so what? That's not a disgrace per se', the disgrace is the fact she has not been able to develop the players even over the year as they make the same mistakes again and again. I know @stwainfan has postulated that Nared and Russell have improved over the years at UT and I would agree, whether that is attributable to CHW or the players themselves and any of the camps or squads they participate in over the summer is what is debatable. Both attended the USA camp this summer and made the squad.

For the coaching comment that Jordy stated, the issue is different for each of the coaches he mentioned.

• Doug, for all his coaching acumen, cannot draw top talent to DePaul. So while we all agree he is pretty good at coaching, part of the role is to get top talent, which he has not been able to do. That has to be on him in not getting really good players but yet we all give him a pass and give excuses why he can't get talent. Yes he can coach players up, but he's been to 2 sweet 16's in his career-that's it. Heck, Holly has been to 3 elite 8's. Geno has said the #1 skill is to get the really good players.
• Rueck is similar to Bruno, he has not brought in truly elite talent but that is changing with the #7 recruit next year, Aquino and with Destiny Slocum (#7 from 2016) becoming eligible so he may have turned the corner in getting elite talent. It will also help that he may entice the Oregon trail to be cutoff to Tenn and head towards Corvallis.
• Graves is a couple years ahead of Rueck in getting recruits, but can he coach as well as Scott remains to be seen. Will Kelly outcoach McGraw and get to a final four????
• Tara is odd in that for all her accomplishments, she goes through droughts of elite talent, now, this year, she has 6 McDonald's AA's on the squad, most of which are Fresh and Soph's so she could be in for a nice run. No one can or should question her ability on either front. While she has won 2 NC's and that was in 1990 and 1992 and she has not capitalized since, not really a good thing.

This board tends to call coaches who recruit well but don't win as much as perceived to be underachievers-See Kim Mulkey, Brenda Frese, Joanne P McCallie, Jeff Walz and now Karen Aston and in some courts, even Muffet McGraw is perceived as underachieving given the recruits she gets. We tend to give far too much leeway to anyone from the Geno Tree of coaching (either assistants or friends-Staley included) despite ample evidence of many of them being slightly better than average and still far below Holly.

My point is to state recruiting is a skill of its own and a critical skill just as or more important than the actual coaching to truly be successful. Yes, she's underachieved, yes, she's in over her head and yes, she is simply too nice to be effective. The scary thing is she's done pretty well despite being pretty inept...

Last, here's another set of articles late last night touting more of the same:
Tennessee Lady Vols: Holly Warlick Should Officially be on the Hot Seat

Wiedmer: Fate of Lady Vols coach Holly Warlick not an easy call for Phillip Fulmer

2 Ears and the Tail @DefenseBB

 

[CocoHusky]

Another area that Lady Vol fans, administration, and players need to quickly come to grips with is how easy it has become to out scheme Holly and the Lady Vols coaching staff. With significantly less talent, during the last few matchup Kristy Curry of Alabama has not only taken Holly's lunch money but Kristy has beaten Holly's behind all the way back to Knoxville, just so that Holly can get more money.

 

[meyers7]

I am not talking about the university. You are. I'm talking about the young women, babies really, who play for them. I hate to disappoint you, but they are human beings, just as you or I. Because you think they made a mistake in playing for an institution you hate, maybe even deservedly so, doesn't make them bad people. Again I remind you, perhaps someone should go back in the past and punish you for every bad mistake you made at that age. Or maybe perhaps demonize you for those minor infringements of the law that you committed then?

If that is what you believe, then I am correct. No concept.

 

[JordyG]

If that is what you believe, then I am correct. No concept.

We've been down this road in another area. I see the vast institution of Tenn separate from a group of kids who will only be there for at best 4 years. A group of kids, as I will remind you, that often commit as young as 14 and 15 to an institution of which they have little or no knowledge of its history. So enlighten me. Do you see these babes as part and parcel of Tenn so therefore their choice of this evil institution makes them guilty to its past by association? A sort of ignorance is no excuse, tarred by the same brush thing or something else. Please enlighten me and others here since I clearly have no concept. Because it seems to me you feel there is no difference between those who attend Tenn and those who are fans or those in administration.

 

[Husky pride]

I believe I have a "healthy" opposition to LV success. It dates back to the first time they played in Jan 1995. My attitude was, now you have some unknown opposition, thanks for letting us join the party. Then, seeing the officials try to take our players out, during the championship game, that same season, I (we) was getting a look at the up hill climb, to be given a fair shot. Pat was definitely a class act and her teams were disciplined and well coached. I know I have a biased opinion, but very few understood Geno's sarcasm and wit, so his teams MAY have paid for some of that. When Pat and UT petitioned the NCAA, filing violations for recruitment etc. They went too far. My distaste (I don't like to use hate in any respect) settled in and I still harbor that today, for their program. Sure, time should heal wounds, but they (UT) and their fans NEVER apologized for those accusations. So, I revel in their (UT) failure. This has nothing to do with the kids that choose to play there. I wish them great success in their off court endeavors. On the court I will always root against them, with the same distaste I have for the NY Yankees. There it is!!!!!! Guess who I root for in MLB. Now, let's go get #12!!!!!!!!!

Let’s see ...I’d say you’re a straight thinking UConn Women’s fan ......and a misguided, grudge-holding Red Sox fan. I’m I close?

 

[EricLA]

A couple random additional thoughts. First, with regards to @JordyG's comments, I skimmed thru the thread and no where on here did I find a single UCONN fan reveling in the tears or sadness the players feel at losing. Granted the kids chose to go to Tennessee, but that's beside the point. We don't root for those kids to injure themselves, or cheer because they cry when they lose. We love the fact that team Tennessee loses, and frankly, they can't lose enough for my taste. I hope you can see that there is a difference between rooting against players or people you hate (Barry Bonds for example), and rooting against a team you hate (the MF Yankees in my case - regardless of who suits up for them).

Second, regarding Marciniak's comments - it's super awesome to get on a high horse and say "but the players have to go out and play the game. Coach can't make them have heart, play harder, grab rebounds, make layups. It's on THE PLAYERS to win" etc. Yeah, duh, but as a former elite player, she oughta know that the coaches also need to give the players the tools they need to succeed. If Geno and co. just rolled the ball out there and said "hey guys - just do like you did in high school and AAU and play hard and win", our program would suck indeed.

What Holly can do is teach the kids how to break down zone defenses. How to run plays to get players open. How to move without the ball. How to defend with their hands up to disrupt passing lanes. How to defend the pick and roll. How to provide help defense when one defender gets beaten without having 3 kids try to do it, get confused, and leave 3 other offensive players wide open for shots. That's just hoops 101.

Having said THAT, yeah I agree - don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Keep Holly on forever. She's shown that even with a roster filled with HS AA's, she can't teach them enough about the game to win consistently. I'm a huge fan!

 

[CTyankee]

Having said THAT, yeah I agree - don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Keep Holly on forever. She's shown that even with a roster filled with HS AA's, she can't teach them enough about the game to win consistently. I'm a huge fan!

May they keep Holly as head coach forever... Amen!!!

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Holly's local press, usually the rah rah corps, started saying she's in trouble 2 years ago.

Lady Vols road warriors

Rexrode: Can Lady Vols' Holly Warlick get it done? You don't know she can't

John Adams: Hot-and-cold Lady Vols could leave Holly Warlick on hot seat

Yet here she sits, apparently for another year(?) .

 

[MainefanSC]

Let’s see ...I’d say you’re a straight thinking UConn Women’s fan .and a misguided, grudge-holding Red Sox fan. I’m I close?

Man, you nailed that one!!

 

[Bronx23]

...I couldn't have said it any better.

It's sounds very good to say that it's all or mostly on the players.
If that's true then what Geno or Pat each accomplished is severely minimized and sorry to say that's overstating it by a ton.
Coaches have to both prepare their teams physically, mentally and strategically to succeed. When we lost to MS last year much of the responsibilities but hardly all falls on the players. Some clearly falls on the coaching and the preparation. When there is credit to be had when your great, there's responsibility to be had when you are less so. As much as Geno said all year there were problems and issues which were overshadowed by their play and record, obviously he was on to something. But somehow his message didn't get through, and that's partially his and the coaching staffs responsibility.
Bronx23

 

[meyers7]

We've been down this road in another area. I see the vast institution of Tenn separate from a group of kids who will only be there for at best 4 years. A group of kids, as I will remind you, that often commit as young as 14 and 15 to an institution of which they have little or no knowledge of its history. So enlighten me. Do you see these babes as part and parcel of Tenn so therefore their choice of this evil institution makes them guilty to its past by association? A sort of ignorance is no excuse, tarred by the same brush thing or something else. Please enlighten me and others here since I clearly have no concept. Because it seems to me you feel there is no difference between those who attend Tenn and those who are fans or those in administration.

How can there possibly be? Just ask them, once a Lady Vol always a Lady Vol. They proudly wear the uniforms of the institution. They represent the Univ of TN. They are the University of TN. Hell the players are MORE the University of TN than the fans are. They have more invested.

What you don't have a concept of is the depth of wickedness, the depravity, the obscenity that is the University of Tennessee. You think of it as some school that plays sports, some "rival" to be hated. NO! It is so much more. It is pure evil. Dante's Inferno has nothing on the University of Tennessee. And in the deepest, darkest pit of this diabolical place are the Lady Vols.

 

[Bronx23]

Sorry guy, but a team is a direct reflection of the coach and her/his philosophies. Any coach who doesn't coach up a #1 HS MDAA to a at least one first team AA in 4 years is in dereliction of the player, the team, the institution and the fans. Further, any coach that only teaches one side of the court, either offense or defense, fails not only all of the above, but themselves as well.

Well said JordyG!
Bronx23

 

[stwainfan]

Stwainfan - really enjoy your posting here, and like most of you insights. I had seen the MM post already and other defenses of Holly, and there is no question that what happens between the lines in any given game is mostly on the players. BUT ... what good coaching depends on is what happens day to day in practice and in the disciplining of players to either follow the coaching or sit. And teaching them enough so that when you recognize problems coming up in a game, they have the skill and knowledge to allow you to make adjustments in how the team plays. And it is true on both sides of the ball.

Nan and I and others point to TN and the inability to play coherent offense against a good zone defense, and that has been true for a long time, and it is a coach's responsibility to make sure players know to populate the short corner and the free throw line area and make sure the ball is constantly moving into and out of those areas stressing the gaps in the zones, and yet that almost never happens in the TN offense. While on the other end, TN defenses consistently get hurt by really poor help and rotations, and you are hard pressed to see any improvements in player defensive technique. Yelling about getting in a stance and getting arms up is about all I see from TN coaches. 20 years ago maybe that was all that was necessary, but with kids getting so little team coaching prior to college now, they need to be taught about footwork and over-playing and steering their player into their help defenders, and rotation, and everything else.

There has maybe been over-hyping of TN recruits through the years since 2008, but there has also been an awful lot of talent entering the program, and yet almost every year's senior class has been dubbed 'disappointing' as they graduate. That cannot all be on the players, at some point you have to look at the coaches and assign them the blame for not developing that HS talent.

Thanks. Yes the head coach is responsible for everything that happens. Yes teach in practice. The players also need to work on skills like getting up shots, ball handling ECT. One thing that hurt last game. Was the team didn't shoot well. Sometimes there are games like that. Yes some of was shot selection. To beat a zone it comes to making outside shots.

 

[JordyG]

How can there possibly be? Just ask them, once a Lady Vol always a Lady Vol. They proudly wear the uniforms of the institution. They represent the Univ of TN. They are the University of TN. Hell the players are MORE the University of TN than the fans are. They have more invested.

What you don't have a concept of is the depth of wickedness, the depravity, the obscenity that is the University of Tennessee. You think of it as some school that plays sports, some "rival" to be hated. NO! It is so much more. It is pure evil. Dante's Inferno has nothing on the University of Tennessee. And in the deepest, darkest pit of this diabolical place are the Lady Vols.

The University of Tennessee as an unlanced boil. I had to give it a like. Funny is just funny.

Ladies and gentlemen meyers7. He'll be here all week. Please leave by the exits located in the back and side doors. Thank you and good evening.

 

[CocoHusky]

We've been down this road in another area. I see the vast institution of Tenn separate from a group of kids who will only be there for at best 4 years. A group of kids, as I will remind you, that often commit as young as 14 and 15 to an institution of which they have little or no knowledge of its history. So enlighten me. Do you see these babes as part and parcel of Tenn so therefore their choice of this evil institution makes them guilty to its past by association? A sort of ignorance is no excuse, tarred by the same brush thing or something else. Please enlighten me and others here since I clearly have no concept.

It is not guilt by association, it is an association made by bad choices -therefore guilty. Those choices to go in the first place and stay in the second should be make in consideration of all aspects of the institution including its history. The association does not only last 4 years it is a permanent association that partially defines a person for life.

"I will be a Lady Vol for life" -Mercedes Russell in postgame press conference.
Why are these choices bad? Mainly because there is a significant history of failure (part of the institutions history) that is being ignored or dismissed. Candace Parker was 15 or 16 when she got this handwritten note from Pat.
The note in part says: "Candace, I think I can help you on and off the court".
This is not much different than pitches that are made to recruits everywhere. What is vastly different is that Pat had the ability to deliver and Holly does not. When a parent or recruit chooses TN and actually falls for this pitch I have no issues saying they are guilty of making a bad choice and associating themselves with an institution that has not delivered (under Holly). To put it even more bluntly ever recruit that has signed with Holly had“hands down” infinitely better choices.

 

[JordyG]

It is not guilt by association, it is an association made by bad choices -therefore guilty. Those choices to go in the first place and stay in the second should be make in consideration of all aspects of the institution including its history. The association does not only last 4 years it is a permanent association that partially defines a person for life.

"I will be a Lady Vol for life" -Mercedes Russell in postgame press conference.
Why are these choices bad? Mainly because there is a significant history of failure (part of the institutions history) that is being ignored or dismissed. Candace Parker was 15 or 16 when she got this handwritten note from Pat.
The note in part says: "Candace, I think I can help you on and off the court".
This is not much different than pitches that are made to recruits everywhere. What is vastly different is that Pat had the ability to deliver and Holly does not. When a parent or recruit chooses TN and actually falls for this pitch I have no issues saying they are guilty of making a bad choice and associating themselves with an institution that has not delivered (under Holly). To put it even more bluntly ever recruit that has signed with Holly had“hands down” infinitely better choices.

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

This sounds familar. Sister Joan in 5 grade said: We can condemm the sin but we still have to love the sinner.
I think Sister Joan would be proud of me because although I hate TN, there are some TN players that I do love. Anyone who says anthing bad about Draya Carter for example is gonna have to:

 

[JordyG]

This sounds familar. Sister Joan in 5 grade said: We can condemm the sin but we still have to love the sinner.
I think Sister Joan would be proud of me because although I hate TN, there are some TN players that I do love. Anyone who says anthing bad about Draya Carter for example is gonna have to:

And every time I look at Mercedes Russell's sweet sensitive face or hear her voice I break out into a smile. I also feel that way for bunch of players on a lot of teams. Maybe I am tragically flawed.

 

[GoUconn7961]

I will never have one iota of sympathy for the Vols. Players have options and can go anywhere they're recruited. If they choose the Holly system after what they've seen then so be it.

 

[mhshuskies]

Which seat is hotter, Holly Warwick’s or Kevin McGuff’s?

 

[j66kicker]

I agree wholeheartedly they are guilty of bad choices. That is not now or has it ever been my position. My conceit is that it does not make them bad people.

It goes far beyond the "He who is without sin..." ideal, but the fact as humans we make 100's of mistakes a day. That is our nature. Yet here we are as fans: Not players, coaches or administrators. Fans of our beloved UConn continuing to pass judgement on the nature of people because of the one bad choice that we deem they've made. Geno has moved on, yet we who have even less at stake than he pretend we know better, or more, or have the right to take a higher ground. Yes, there seems to be a skip in my recording. But if some of us would just try to think back on our 15, 16 or 18 year old selves and remember the slew of bad choices we made that hindered us, hurt us or delayed our development, what would we see? It didn't make us evil or even tragically flawed. Just human. Yet looking back I'm sure we can see that at the time we also had infinitely better choices.

All true. But this is sports, not the 'real world.' Can't I just hate Tennessee and feel good about it?

 

[augustaTC]

I doubt that. Geno will have imput and he certainly does not appear to be someone swayed by nepotism like Pat was with Holly.

From a recent piece on HW - The late, great Al McGwire once said of the men's coaching jobs at UCLA and Kentucky after the retirements of the legendary John Wooden and Adolph Rupp, "You never want to be the guy to replace a legend. You want to be the guy who replaces the guy who replaces the legend."

This perfectly describes the difficulty any coach (including Shea, Marissa, Jenn, or any other Geno disciple) will have following Geno. First of all, the fans won't tolerate much of a drop-off in achievement. We have been so spoiled the past 25 years!

Second, most recruits are savvy enough to realize they won't be coached by/playing for the legend and that the history of a program only goes so far. Tennessee stands as the perfect object lesson of this. And all the other recruiters will remind them of this incessantly.

Neither group is going to allow much of a honeymoon, at least IMHO.

Will be interesting to watch whenever the transition takes place (and I do hope I'm way off base). Come to think of it, I may be drooling and staring blankly at TV screens when it happens, so I'll miss the whole darn process!

 

[bballnut90]

Which seat is hotter, Holly Warwick’s or Kevin McGuff’s?

This year it should be Holly’s seat. Holly is slowly destroying what was once the most elite program in women’s basketball for quite some time. Back to back early exits, a huge disgruntled fan base and poor results for 3 years now means she should be on the hot seat. Her recruiting efforts and all the turmoil in the Tennessee athletic department means she’s likely safe for another season. IMO, next year’s team has the most meager outlook of any Tennessee team in quite some time.

McGuff took a struggling program and actually improved them quite a bit with the talent he was able to bring in. They won the Big Ten this year, but they’ve massively underperformed relative to expectations with all the talent they have. The way they got romped at home by an 11 seed in the 2nd round is downright embarrassing. Once next year hits and Ohio State is a borderline .500 team, he’ll be out of a job.


If I had betting money, I think both are safe another year.