HOF - Ray?

[MilliniumPrince]

College team results? Maybe, but then Ray's NBA team results should equalize.
Ray's 3yr college stats are superior to Hill's 4 years. And Hill obviously had more help on his wins/early squads with his 3/4 FF being with Hurley & Laettner (MVPs). My eye test and stats below certainly don't tell me that Grant Hill was a HOF/superior college basketball player vs Ray:
Ray 19.0PPG, 6.0Reb, 2.4A, 1.6S, .4 Blocks, 1.9TO, .487FG%, .4483pt%, 520-3's, 1,922pts (3 years)
Hill 14.9PPG, 6.0Reb, 3.6A, 1.7S, 1.0Blocks, 2.5TO, 532FG%, .3763pt%, 117-3's, 1,924 pts (4 years)

The case for Grant Hill as a first ballot no brainer boils down to he's a nice guy and he would have had a better career if he didn't get hurt and because he's a nice guy we feel better about ourselves by trying to make up for the injury.

No it doesn't. As someone already pointed out, in the Basketball HOF he is a no brainer based on his college career alone. In a hypothetical NBA HOF, which is located next to Hogwarts, he would not stand a chance.

 

[whaler11]

Also a first ballot entry into the catfish HOF.

 

[superjohn]

No it doesn't. As someone already pointed out, in the Basketball HOF he is a no brainer based on his college career alone. In a hypothetical NBA HOF, which is located next to Hogwarts, he would not stand a chance.

Based on his college career alone Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer? Where do you people come up with this stuff.

If Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer just based off of his college career then Shabazz is also a shoo-in.

 

[superjohn]

At least Whaler is deleting his stupid basketball takes now.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Based on his college career alone Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer? Where do you people come up with this stuff.

If Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer just based off of his college career then Shabazz is also a shoo-in.

Yeah for forks sake, he didn't even win a final four MOP or a Naismith. This is what I'm talking about though, his Q rating is some damn high people see the smile, the NFL dad, the mom, the Dook uni and BOOM he had the greatest perceived college career since Bill Walton.

Hill doesn't even make this guy's top 50 (based on NCAA > NBA premise)!!
Khalid at 22 with a bullet
The 50 Greatest College Basketball Players of All Time

 

[whaler11]

At least Whaler is deleting his stupid basketball takes now.

No I don’t want to waste time arguing with a psychopath on a topic (the hof) that I don’t care about at all.

You must be like 15 though if you don’t comprehend how good Grant Hill was in college.

 

[whaler11]

Yeah for forks sake, he didn't even win a final four MOP or a Naismith. This is what I'm talking about though, his Q rating is some damn high people see the smile, the NFL dad, the mom, the Dook uni and BOOM he had the greatest perceived college career since Bill Walton.

Hill doesn't even make this guy's top 50 (based on NCAA > NBA premise)!!
Khalid at 22 with a bullet
The 50 Greatest College Basketball Players of All Time

You didn’t read the criteria did you?

 

[superjohn]

Yeah for forks sake, he didn't even win a final four MOP or a Naismith. This is what I'm talking about though, his Q rating is some damn high people see the smile, the NFL dad, the mom, the Dook uni and BOOM he had the greatest perceived college career since Bill Walton.

Hill doesn't even make this guy's top 50 (based on NCAA > NBA premise)!!
Khalid at 22 with a bullet
The 50 Greatest College Basketball Players of All Time

Lol, see Whaler's post. Grant Hill was a great player who made a really smart decision in deciding to join Christian Laettner and Bobby Hurley at Duke.

He wasn't a better or more accomplished college basketball player than Shabazz Napier.

The point is neither of them are getting in the Hall of Fame based only on their college careers.

 

[methodology]

Grant hill at his peak was better than ray. There no reasonable argument refutting that fact.

Ridiculous ray isn't a 1st ballot HOFer

 

[whaler11]

Grant Hill only averaged 17.5-7-5, was a first team AA and went to the Final Four without Hurley and Laettner. In an era when the teams would have destroyed the freshman led crapshows of the 2010s.

 

[UConnSwag11]

 

[superjohn]

Shabazz only averaged 18-6-5, was a first team AA, won the Final Four, and was Final Four MOP.

 

[whaler11]

Shabazz only averaged 18-6-5, was a first team AA, won the Final Four, and was Final Four MOP.

And Napier isn’t eligible for the Hall of Fame just yet. If he does make it some day a big part of it is going to be his college career.

 

[selles]

Grant Hill only averaged 17.5-7-5, was a first team AA and went to the Final Four without Hurley and Laettner. In an era when the teams would have destroyed the freshman led crapshows of the 2010s.

That 1994 Duke team had absolutely no one else too (as evidenced by their collapse the next year). Krzyzewski put Hill at point guard in the tournament and he somehow willed them to the final game.

He also crushed Michigan in the 1992 championship game.

 

[Dogdeacon]

That 1994 Duke team had absolutely no one else too (as evidenced by their collapse the next year). Krzyzewski put Hill at point guard in the tournament and he somehow willed them to the final game.

He also crushed Michigan in the 1992 championship game.

How dare you disrespect Cherokee Parks.

 

[UconnU]

Of course Ray is a hall of famer. Right?

 

[KemBaller]

27 is usually peak production.

Let me be clear: I really loved Hill. He would have been a great great player. I was more pushing back on Top 15 of all time. He'd have been Top 10 of his generation for sure.

Show your work. Present me any all-star level players over the last 20-25 years that had a statistical spike at age 27 and then a clear drop in every season thereafter. Please do not include any players that injury could be cited as the primary reason for statistical dropoff.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Based on his college career alone Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer? Where do you people come up with this stuff.

If Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer just based off of his college career then Shabazz is also a shoo-in.

Please make a list of players who played solid to leading roles on teams that went to 3 Final Fours and won 2 rings. Then tell me how many aren't in the HOF. Smh

 

[tzznandrew]

Show your work. Present me any all-star level players over the last 20-25 years that had a statistical spike at age 27 and then a clear drop in every season thereafter. Please do not include any players that injury could be cited as the primary reason for statistical dropoff.

You clearly are misreading what I'm saying, since that's not what I mean by peak, and usually not what people who use the work peak performance mean. "Players reach their peak" means they hit the level--usually sustained for a few years--that represents their best performance. The level Hill hit at 27 likely would have continued for another 3-4 years.

If you want some data:

 

[Dogdeacon]

Please make a list of players who played solid to leading roles on teams that went to 3 Final Fours and won 2 rings. Then tell me how many aren't in the HOF. Smh

NYPD Officer Bobby Hill

 

[Dogdeacon]

Please make a list of players who played solid to leading roles on teams that went to 3 Final Fours and won 2 rings. Then tell me how many aren't in the HOF. Smh

Now with the help of Google!: Sidney Wicks, Walt Hazzard, Bobby Hurley!
I think Hurley ends the argument. More important to a couple of those teams than Hill was and not in HOF.
Mic dropped

 

[uconndoit]

This is from 2016.

Ray Allen Leaves Behind Legacy of Understated Greatness

"Allen won the NBA Sportsmanship Award in 2003, making him the only surefire Hall of Famer since David Robinson to win that honor. He was also named The Sporting News’ “Good Guy” three(!) separate times."

 

[KemBaller]

You clearly are misreading what I'm saying, since that's not what I mean by peak, and usually not what people who use the work peak performance mean. "Players reach their peak" means they hit the level--usually sustained for a few years--that represents their best performance. The level Hill hit at 27 likely would have continued for another 3-4 years.

If you want some data:

I asked you to cite me specific examples, not cite a Reddit post grouping numerous players together.


The part of the post you actually wrote yourself is irrelevant and quite frankly talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

[tzznandrew]

I asked you to cite me specific examples, not cite a Reddit post grouping numerous players together.


The part of the post you actually wrote yourself is irrelevant and quite frankly talking out both sides of your mouth.

You asked for evidence of something I never said. Grant Hill's 27 year (26ppg on 50.1 eFG%, 6.5rpg, 5apg) was both his best statistical (you can argue that 23 or 24 year old season, but let's say 27) season, and, given historical precedent, likely his plateau. It was a great season. It wasn't a Top 15 type season. Whatever it is you are trying to argue with me is irrelevant, because that was the conversation at hand.

Despite that, I gave you a statistical analysis--that looked at players' peaks and if you clicked the link gave details on 71 players--that analyzed when players hit their peak. 27 was, on average, their peak: a peak that, per my actual argument rather than the one you invented for me, would suggest Hill was a great, but not Top 15 player all time.

Given this, I am uninterested in continuing this conversation.

 

[gtcam]

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

There is a separate College Basketball Hall of Fame

But yes, the HoF in Springfield has members that were not NBA starts but those were foreign Olympians, coaches, officials and front office.
Not sure there are any college stars that didn't play NBA or had a lackluster NBA career enshrined - could be wrong

Getting back to Ray - I feel he deserves a spot in Springfield and it will come soon

 

[polycom]

There is a separate College Basketball Hall of Fame

But yes, the HoF in Springfield has members that were not NBA starts but those were foreign Olympians, coaches, officials and front office.
Not sure there are any college stars that didn't play NBA or had a lackluster NBA career enshrined - could be wrong

Getting back to Ray - I feel he deserves a spot in Springfield and it will come soon

What about all the women, last I checked a woman hasn't played in the NBA yet.

 

[gtcam]

What about all the women, last I checked a woman hasn't played in the NBA yet.

You are correct - women are in there also
SHAME on me

 

[KemBaller]

You asked for evidence of something I never said. Grant Hill's 27 year (26ppg on 50.1 eFG%, 6.5rpg, 5apg) was both his best statistical (you can argue that 23 or 24 year old season, but let's say 27) season, and, given historical precedent, likely his plateau. It was a great season. It wasn't a Top 15 type season. Whatever it is you are trying to argue with me is irrelevant, because that was the conversation at hand.

Despite that, I gave you a statistical analysis--that looked at player's peak your and if you clicked the link gave details on 71 players--that analyzed when players their peak. 27 was, on average, their peak: a peak that, per my actual argument rather than the one you invented for me, would suggest Hill was a great, but not Top 15 player all time.

Given this, I am uninterested in continuing this conversation.

Hill sustaining his age 27 year for several years puts him in the discussion as a top 15-20 guy all time.


Again though, I asked you to cite specific examples to back up what you had said. Specific examples =/= compilation of an average.



Just trying to be quick and to the point here. It's unnecessary to write any more at length, you can either provide examples of individuals that back up your statement or you can't.

 

[KemBaller]

There is a separate College Basketball Hall of Fame

But yes, the HoF in Springfield has members that were not NBA starts but those were foreign Olympians, coaches, officials and front office.
Not sure there are any college stars that didn't play NBA or had a lackluster NBA career enshrined - could be wrong

Getting back to Ray - I feel he deserves a spot in Springfield and it will come soon

The Boston radio show that simulcasts in the morning on NBC Boston Sports reported via a conversation with Ray that he's going to be at the final 4 and has a "great shot" (pun intended I think) of being in this HoF class.

 

[RichZ]

it’s not even like we’re dealing with anyone who is close to Christian Laettner levels of tooldom...

But Hill played with Laetner, so he looked like an even nicer guy by comparison to the piece of equine dung standing next to him.