HOF - Ray?

[Dogdeacon]

Article on ESPN this AM and finally got around to clicking on it saying Nash, Kidd, Grant Hill voted into basketball HOF. Down the bottom of article it mentions Ray & Chris Weber as other prominent players that are finalists. Nash & Kidd are certainly HOF worthy and debatable if they are equal, less or above vs Ray.
But if Grant Hill is in over Ray?
Ray 19PPG, all-time 3pt leader, 18yr career 1,149 starts, 24,505pts, 2 rings, 10-time all star
Grant Hill 16.7PPG, 18yr career (shocked to see that, I woulda guessed 11) 972 starts, 17,137pts, no rings, 7-time all star
I will not accept an argument that Hill's zenith was higher either (Hill 5 seasons >20pts, 24.8 high, Ray 8 seasons >20, 25.4 high). I think the only argument would be Ray was never the best SG in the league overlapping with Michael & Kobe whereas Hill had a time as the best SF. If Grant Hill is in and Ray is not its entirely political (and Grant Hill is a much nicer guy).

 

[TheChamps990411]

Id be SHOCKED! If RAy isnt in on the first ballot.

 

[MadDogRevival]

But if Grant Hill is in over Ray?

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

 

[intlzncster]

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

Fair point. But I'm surprised Ray wasn't a first ballot guy.

 

[superjohn]

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

Ray Allen was a better college player and a better NBA player than Grant Hill. Allen's career was better in every way.

 

[superjohn]

Fair point. But I'm surprised Ray wasn't a first ballot guy.

My guess is the full first ballot wasn't released, Ray Allen is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

 

[polycom]

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

Ray was better than Grant. Statistically and by the eye test.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Ray was better than Grant. Statistically and by the eye test.

If Hill stayed healthy he’d be in the conversation for top 15-ish player of all time

 

[Dogdeacon]

"Basketball" HOF, not "NBA" HOF.
Grant Hill - 3 final fours and two rings while at Duke. That's the difference.
Ridiculous to us, to be sure, and probably political, but not as big of an insult when you consider that Hill was one of the best collegians of modern times.

College team results? Maybe, but then Ray's NBA team results should equalize.
Ray's 3yr college stats are superior to Hill's 4 years. And Hill obviously had more help on his wins/early squads with his 3/4 FF being with Hurley & Laettner (MVPs). My eye test and stats below certainly don't tell me that Grant Hill was a HOF/superior college basketball player vs Ray:
Ray 19.0PPG, 6.0Reb, 2.4A, 1.6S, .4 Blocks, 1.9TO, .487FG%, .4483pt%, 520-3's, 1,922pts (3 years)
Hill 14.9PPG, 6.0Reb, 3.6A, 1.7S, 1.0Blocks, 2.5TO, 532FG%, .3763pt%, 117-3's, 1,924 pts (4 years)

The case for Grant Hill as a first ballot no brainer boils down to he's a nice guy and he would have had a better career if he didn't get hurt and because he's a nice guy we feel better about ourselves by trying to make up for the injury.

 

[polycom]

If Hill stayed healthy he’d be in the conversation for top 15-ish player of all time

But he didn't.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

But he didn't.

And it’s a shame

 

[tzznandrew]

If Hill stayed healthy he’d be in the conversation for top 15-ish player of all time

His 22-27 year old stats were really good, but not that good.

21.6 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.3 apg with a 48 eFG%, 22.4 PER, 60 WS, and 30.4 VORP.

 

[Palatine]

If Hill stayed healthy he’d be in the conversation for top 15-ish player of all time

If my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

His 22-27 year old stats were really good, but not that good.

21.6 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.3 apg with a 48 eFG%, 22.4 PER, 60 WS, and 30.4 VORP.

But he was getting better, his last healthy season was a statline you could expect for the next 5 years, that is consistent all NBA level.

 

[tzznandrew]

But he was getting better, his last healthy season was a statline you could expect for the next 5 years, that is consistent all NBA level.

27 is usually peak production.

Let me be clear: I really loved Hill. He would have been a great great player. I was more pushing back on Top 15 of all time. He'd have been Top 10 of his generation for sure.

 

[intlzncster]

My guess is the full first ballot wasn't released, Ray Allen is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Ah Ok, I didn't know it worked that way.

 

[intlzncster]

If my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon.

You saying she's got a big dumper?

 

[TheChamps990411]

I stopped paying attention to the oscars about 10 years ago after Katherine Bigelow won best director for the very overrated Hurt Locker over James CAmerons Avatar. Say what you will about the movie itself but JC did some groundbreaking work on that film and shouldve been rewarded.
If GH gets in and RA does not ill be done with the NBA HOF. I mean come on! How is Ray not a first ballot guy and GH is?

 

[MadDogRevival]

If my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon.

You saying she's got a big dumper?

Maybe he's saying she's been ridden a lot.

 

[MadDogRevival]

College team results?

Dude, don't shoot the messenger. My point wasn't to defend Hill (should not be in). My point was to inform the OP that it's not just an NBA HOF. That's it. Ergo, the "insult," as I called it, of Hill being announced as "in" while no word on Ray yet is less insulting than it would have been for a straight NBA comparison.

Jeez.

 

[browndog319]

Ray isn’t a nice guy? First of all, when he was in college, he was. Second, that’s not what this is voting on. Third, it’s not even like we’re dealing with anyone who is close to Christian Laettner levels of tooldom...

Who cares?

 

[Huskies4ever]

Dude, don't shoot the messenger. My point wasn't to defend Hill (should not be in). My point was to inform the OP that it's not just an NBA HOF. That's it. Ergo, the "insult," as I called it, of Hill being announced as "in" while no word on Ray yet is less insulting than it would have been for a straight NBA comparison.

Jeez.

I agree with Basketball Hall of Fame, vs. NBA Hall of Fame. Both Olympic Gold Medalists, and collegiate All-Americans. GH won at the highest level in college. Ray did not. Still, overall body of work (collegiate, pro, olympic) Ray has the better body of work. Don't get me started on Chris Webber (like him as an analyst and doing games for TNT - seems like a cool guy) - but he should difinately not get in over Ray.

BTW: GH and Ray = class acts (for whomever said that GH was a good guy vs. Ray).

 

[Dogdeacon]

Dude, don't shoot the messenger. My point wasn't to defend Hill (should not be in). My point was to inform the OP that it's not just an NBA HOF. That's it. Ergo, the "insult," as I called it, of Hill being announced as "in" while no word on Ray yet is less insulting than it would have been for a straight NBA comparison.

Jeez.

I was talking about the message not the messenger. In fact on first read I thought your point was probably right so I decided to look up the stats to see if that backed up the perception. Debating on merits only, nothing personal said or intended.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Hopefully by noon tomorrow this thread is barking at the moon and Ray's HOF induction is official.

 

[superjohn]

If Hill stayed healthy he’d be in the conversation for top 15-ish player of all time

Hyperbole much?!?? Hill was a great player and injuries hampered him but top 15 all-time, the NBA has had so many legendary players.

Michael, Magic, Jabbar, Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Russell, Olajuwan, Oscar, Dr. J, Duncan, Shaq, Moses, Pettit, Kobe, Dirk, West, Robinson, Malone, Hayes, Barkley, Gervin, Drexler, Wade, Stockton, Ewing, Curry, Rick Barry and others all say hi.