Hockey East move is official.

[brasssbonanzaa]

Mod... Can we add Hockey to Baseball and Soccer Forum?

http://blog.collegehockeynews.com/2012/06/20-current-or-future-hockey-east-players-drafted/


We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto....

Anyone looking for a dedicated college hockey forum, I cautiously advise you to join the snake pit that is the USCHO forums, board.uscho.com. If you like the BC fans over at their board, you'll love their hockey fans. It's a fun time usually, and there's plenty of discussion on UConn going on right now.

 

[mattp]

I imagine that they have already reached any reasonable ceiling for fan support. Expecting anything above what they draw would be completely unrealistic. Hoping to reach a considerable percentage of their attendance should be the goal (with the understanding that it will take some time).

i think you're selling the market short. i agree 14k would be a bit much, since the Whalers didn't average that very often, but i would consider a HE UConn a bigger draw than the CT Whale and they've averaged 4-5k in attendance so i would expect UConn to do at least about as well, with a considerably higher ceiling. Most fans in CT are divided between NY and Boston lines, which hurt the Whalers in attendance but UConn's always been able to attract both and i don't see why hockey would be any different. personally my prediction would be that in ten years we're averaging around 7-8k per game, possibly selling out the Civic Center occasionally for a big game.

personally i have a hard time believing we wouldn't draw at least about well as the CTWhale i think a 4k on campus stadium would not be sufficient in the long term. i think just the fact that there are no weekday games would make it a slam dunk bigger draw than the Whale. who wants to schlep to the CC on a wednesday night to watch AHL?

 

[coachcap]

i think you're selling the market short. i agree 14k would be a bit much, since the Whalers didn't average that very often, but i would consider a HE UConn a bigger draw than the CT Whale and they've averaged 4-5k in attendance so i would expect UConn to do at least about as well, with a considerably higher ceiling. Most fans in CT are divided between NY and Boston lines, which hurt the Whalers in attendance but UConn's always been able to attract both and i don't see why hockey would be any different. personally my prediction would be that in ten years we're averaging around 7-8k per game, possibly selling out the Civic Center occasionally for a big game.

personally i have a hard time believing we wouldn't draw at least about well as the CTWhale i think a 4k on campus stadium would not be sufficient in the long term. i think just the fact that there are no weekday games would make it a slam dunk bigger draw than the Whale. who wants to schlep to the CC on a wednesday night to watch AHL?

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Gampel was originally built with capacity of 8800 because the powers that be felt that UConn would not support basketball on campus & to cut corners. It was expanded later to over 10,000 after ticket demand soared in the Calhoun era. The RENT was only built at 40K capacity (albeit with expansion capability to 55K) because the pols were afraid of the 1-A football experiment blowing up in their faces after the Patriot-Kraft debacle. (Remember that pre-kraft, the original Adriens Landing blueprints were for a 55K domed stadium to house UConn football & men's & women's hoops). All I'm saying is if you're going to biold an on-campus facility, DON'T underestimate fan crowd size. Do it right the first time.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Gampel was originally built with capacity of 8800 because the powers that be felt that UConn would not support basketball on campus & to cut corners. It was expanded later to over 10,000 after ticket demand soared in the Calhoun era. The RENT was only built at 40K capacity (albeit with expansion capability to 55K) because the pols were afraid of the 1-A football experiment blowing up in their faces after the Patriot-Kraft debacle. (Remember that pre-kraft, the original Adriens Landing blueprints were for a 55K domed stadium to house UConn football & men's & women's hoops). All I'm saying is if you're going to biold an on-campus facility, DON'T underestimate fan crowd size. Do it right the first time.

The difference here is that there isn't a precedence for virtually anyone in the country to draw numbers like that in college hockey, save for a very small number of programs out west, which have exceptionally rich traditions in hockey and are in hockey-crazed areas. Three teams averaged over 8K last year, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and North Dakota. If you look at basketball around 1990 when Gampel was built, how many college basketball teams averaged over 10K? I'd bet the number is significantly larger than three. You can even look at the NCAA tournament as a meter. The regional site last year in St. Paul where the Wild play had BOTH North Dakota and Minnesota playing there against BU and Western Michigan. None of the games drew more than 10K, including the North Dakota-Minnesota Regional Final. This in an arena that can easily sell out 18K for the WCHA conference championship between the same teams. Attendance is very flukey in hockey.

The difference is the sport as a whole has proven to not draw these numbers of fans consistently, not the specific programs. Can it theoretically happen? Sure, but it's not like basketball or football. It would most definitely not be failing to learn from history if they build a 5K arena on campus, it would be in line with every other newly built facility in the country, especially ND and their gigantic sports following.

 

[kingdobbs]

Not to mention that bigger isn't always better. Lynah (Cornell) is a fearsome place to play, but its capacity is just a touch shy of 4400. Michigan, for all of its position as one of the "HUGE" hockey schools, plays in its old barn that they've reduced in size twice in the last thirty years (although they did add a few hundred seats in the last renovation, bringing it up to 6600 or so). If you need further proof of how sustainable a high demand ticket can be over a long period of time, ask the Red Sox if they think their fan base has abandoned them because it's impossible to get a ticket to the Yankees series.

I *think* that if UConn does everything right on our end (read: everything not dependent on the hockey team's success), our upper ceiling for home attendance is about 4-5K or so. Our likely upper ceiling is probably closer to 3K. Anything over 5K, and you're asking too much for a team that doesn't have fifty years of accumulated success and demand.

 

[HuskyDogArt]

Not to mention that bigger isn't always better. Lynah (Cornell) is a fearsome place to play, but its capacity is just a touch shy of 4400. Michigan, for all of its position as one of the "HUGE" hockey schools, plays in its old barn that they've reduced in size twice in the last thirty years (although they did add a few hundred seats in the last renovation, bringing it up to 6600 or so). If you need further proof of how sustainable a high demand ticket can be over a long period of time, ask the Red Sox if they think their fan base has abandoned them because it's impossible to get a ticket to the Yankees series.

I *think* that if UConn does everything right on our end (read: everything not dependent on the hockey team's success), our upper ceiling for home attendance is about 4-5K or so. Our likely upper ceiling is probably closer to 3K. Anything over 5K, and you're asking too much for a team that doesn't have fifty years of accumulated success and demand.

Remember King Dobbs...up until the 1990s (1995 IIRC), you could watch the games for free. I used to go and watch the team in the 70s and 80s in the open rink. Froze many nights watching them play. Success and demand? how can you create a demand if the games are free? Success, were we trying to be a D1 team in the 70s and 80s? No...

Now, some of us were saying that we can be successful in D1A football when it first came up. Are we successful in it?? Yes...(Big East is not helping, though!)

 

[kingdobbs]

Remember King Dobbs...up until the 1990s (1995 IIRC), you could watch the games for free. I used to go and watch the team in the 70s and 80s in the open rink. Froze many nights watching them play. Success and demand? how can you create a demand if the games are free? Success, were we trying to be a D1 team in the 70s and 80s? No...

Which is exactly my point. We, in spite of having a team for fifty years, HAVEN'T been working on it like those teams have. Now, are we starting from nothing? No, there's a "UConn fanbase" in-state that the university can tap into that in building the hockey program. But I think we ought to be realistic about our upper ceiling, when you consider that many of the programs that are considered the best followed and have the most devoted fan base, don't draw 10K for home games. Michigan drew just under 6000. Boston U, just under 5000. Denver, 5300. Even the national champion BC Eagles, 7500. I'm not sanguine our numbers will approach, let alone exceed those, and the grand revelation I'm making here is that the situation is OK. We who follow college hockey don't have the numbers but we're damned devoted.

 

[JaYnYcE]

UConn joins an elite group of seven other schools that compete on the national level as a member of the BCS Conference in football and play college basketball and college hockey in a national elite conference. Those other schools with their future conference hockey affiliation are: Boston College (Hockey East), Michigan (Big Ten), Michigan State (Big Ten), Minnesota (Big Ten), Notre Dame (Hockey East), Ohio State (Big Ten) and Wisconsin (Big Ten).

do u smelllllllllllll what THE SUSAN HERBST is cooking??????

It doesn't matter what she's cooking!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Back to my comment on what should be a reasonable expectation, for fan support we need a bit of perspective (using the football stadium example stated above should illustrate my point).

How many major programs have stadiums that hold more than 100k? How many hold more than 90K? 80k?

If we were to accept th posted 40k as the Rent's true capacity (which is a bit of a stretch), there are more than a dozen stadiums with more than double our capacity. Do we really believe that having a stadium that is half (or less) of what most large stadiums hold can be used as evidence that a hockey rink with a capacity in line with what most of the better schools hold will not be large enough?

BU is very close to UConn in total student body (a bit smaller in undergrad & a bit larger in grad IIRC bit the difference is not much), they have quite a bit of history and a large metropolitan area that loves the game to draw from. I personally will be thrilled if the day comes where we have a legitmate fan base at 70%-75% of BU's legitimate fan base. It would be a pleasant surprise (and nothing short of a minor miracle) if we would ever need an on campus rink that can hold more than 6,500 fans. Something that can hold ~5k with the ability to expand by another 1,500 if that ever becomes necessary will be more than sufficient for our ice hockey needs even if we do build a program that can match our men's hoops program.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Back to my comment on what should be a reasonable expectation, for fan support we need a bit of perspective (using the football stadium example stated above should illustrate my point).

How many major programs have stadiums that hold more than 100k? How many hold more than 90K? 80k?

If we were to accept th posted 40k as the Rent's true capacity (which is a bit of a stretch), there are more than a dozen stadiums with more than double our capacity. Do we really believe that having a stadium that is half (or less) of what most large stadiums hold can be used as evidence that a hockey rink with a capacity in line with what most of the better schools hold will not be large enough?

BU is very close to UConn in total student body (a bit smaller in undergrad & a bit larger in grad IIRC bit the difference is not much), they have quite a bit of history and a large metropolitan area that loves the game to draw from. I personally will be thrilled if the day comes where we have a legitmate fan base at 70%-75% of BU's legitimate fan base. It would be a pleasant surprise (and nothing short of a minor miracle) if we would ever need an on campus rink that can hold more than 6,500 fans. Something that can hold ~5k with the ability to expand by another 1,500 if that ever becomes necessary will be more than sufficient for our ice hockey needs even if we do build a program that can match our men's hoops program.

BU and college hockey in general in Boston is a bit of a special case. While BU is huge, 30K plus, the student population is so diverse and a very large percentage of them are not interested in sports in any way shape or form, far more than you'd find at your average State U, I'd venture over 75% couldn't tell you the name of BU's starting goalie. Additionally, while BU draws roughly 5-6K a game, it can't be overlooked that there are three other programs within a two mile radius of BU's arena, BC, who draws 6-7K, NU who gets 2-3, and Harvard who gets the same. Not to mention the multitude of programs within a 25 mile drive of Boston. While that's certainly not an argument that UConn should be able to outdraw BU or BC, it speaks to the nature of college hockey being a niche sport that is wildly successful in some spots, but not others.

And before anyone asks, no, UConn or anyone else is not getting into the Beanpot, ever.

 

[UconNate]

BU and college hockey in general in Boston is a bit of a special case. While BU is huge, 30K plus, the student population is so diverse and a very large percentage of them are not interested in sports in any way shape or form, far more than you'd find at your average State U, I'd venture over 75% couldn't tell you the name of BU's starting goalie. Additionally, while BU draws roughly 5-6K a game, it can't be overlooked that there are three other programs within a two mile radius of BU's arena, BC, who draws 6-7K, NU who gets 2-3, and Harvard who gets the same. Not to mention the multitude of programs within a 25 mile drive of Boston. While that's certainly not an argument that UConn should be able to outdraw BU or BC, it speaks to the nature of college hockey being a niche sport that is wildly successful in some spots, but not others.

And before anyone asks, no, UConn or anyone else is not getting into the Beanpot, ever.

Yeah, cause they're scared of us...

 

[mattp]

there's a lot of hockey fans in CT and there's a void of product. after the Whalers left i always had a tough time caring about the Wolfpack or any of the other short lived AHL teams in the area and i still barely turn on the NHL, but people like to root for UConn. the Boston schools aren't just competing against each other, but also the Bruins for tickets. in reality they're also competing against the Celtics for fans. UConn hockey doesn't have tradition or a large following, but i think the ceiling is higher than just about any program out there. just because we can't draw 50k for football doesn't mean we can't draw more than BU for hockey. i don't think there's anything wrong with a 5-6k on campus stadium, because we'll always have the HCC available for big games, but if you think our average attendance will peak at 75% of BUs i think you're underestimating the hockey market in CT. the great thing about this debate is that it will actually be settled in a few years and i can rub your nose into how wrong you are when we're selling out the HCC.

we're a sleeping giant in hockey. there, i used one of my most disliked sports cliches, but it's more true for this than it ever was for Rutgers football

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I'm sorry to tell you that you're woefully wrong if you think UConn is going to regularly sell out HCC. BU technically "sells out" the Garden when they play in the Beanpot too, so it happens. They sold 38,000 tickets for the Fenway game against BC too. But if you think UConn's going to be averaging over 10K for hockey, you're incredibly wrong.

 

[mattp]

i never said regularly, but i said earlier we'd average 7-8k in ten years and i stand by that.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I'd gladly take the under on that bet. The demand for the sport overall unfortunately is just not there, especially at the XL Center where they'll be lucky to get a few hundred students showing up.

 

[mattp]

i know i said 7k-8k in ten years, but that's a long time off and i think 5k in five years would put us on track for 7k in ten. how about this, if UConn averages over 5k in attendance for the 2017 season you owe me two rink-side tickets and a beer to a UConn hockey game, if not, i owe you the same. preferably to our national championship game against BC that season in reality i should probably get some kind of odds since our current on campus rink only holds a few thousand, but i'm confident that UConn hockey will be big so i won't need them. we might only have a few hundred students in attendance, but we'll have 5k plus old white haired guys like me in whalers jerseys

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Hah, sure. I'll wear my BU jersey.

 

[Dann]

what are the sizes of the b10 puck arenas? w/e they are we need to build a on campus facility in reach of those.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Don't forget the face paint fanboy.

And with that first time poster. As I told slurpees on USCHO I was going to come here and welcome you to Hockey East, the best conference in the college hockey.

Yeah yeah BCU sucks blah blah blah

As someone who grew up in CT, looking forward to going to the civic center for some BC-UConn games.

Oh boy, USCHO insults coming to the boneyard, fantastic!

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I'd pay to see a discussion between Carl and SteveF.

 

[kingdobbs]

I'd pay to see a discussion between Carl and SteveF.

Is there someone taking up a collection? I'd chip in a finsky for it.

what are the sizes of the b10 puck arenas? w/e they are we need to build a on campus facility in reach of those.

Yost, Munn and Pegula are all between 6 and 7 K. The rest we might as well not bother trying to reach.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Yost, Munn and Pegula are all between 6 and 7 K. The rest we might as well not bother trying to reach.

These:
Minny: 10K - usually at or near capacity.
Wisconsin: ~15K - usually about 80% capacity.
Ohio State: ~18K - they average 4K if they're lucky.
Michigan: 6,800 - usually at or nearcapacity.
Michigan State: 6,500 - usually about 80% capacity.
Penn State: 6K - ???

For other reference:
Notre Dame: 5K - usually at or near capacity.

 

[huskyjawz]

BU and college hockey in general in Boston is a bit of a special case. While BU is huge, 30K plus, the student population is so diverse and a very large percentage of them are not interested in sports in any way shape or form, far more than you'd find at your average State U, I'd venture over 75% couldn't tell you the name of BU's starting goalie. Additionally, while BU draws roughly 5-6K a game, it can't be overlooked that there are three other programs within a two mile radius of BU's arena, BC, who draws 6-7K, NU who gets 2-3, and Harvard who gets the same. Not to mention the multitude of programs within a 25 mile drive of Boston. While that's certainly not an argument that UConn should be able to outdraw BU or BC, it speaks to the nature of college hockey being a niche sport that is wildly successful in some spots, but not others.

And before anyone asks, no, UConn or anyone else is not getting into the Beanpot, ever.

Can you please explain to me the purpose of the Beanpot? I understand the fierce rivalries of the local teams, but three out of the four are in the same conference and already play home and home every year, on top of meeting in the Hockey East Tournament some years, right? It's not like a large football conference where you sometimes don't play a team for years.

The Big Five in Philly makes a lot more sense to me; most of those teams only face each other, there.

If we played Syracuse or St John's twice in basketball in the regular season, again in the Big Apple Classic, and then again in the Big East Tournament, I think that the Classic might be redundant and/or detract from the excitement of the B.E.T.

 

[kingdobbs]

Can you please explain to me the purpose of the Beanpot? I understand the fierce rivalries of the local teams, but three out of the four are in the same conference and already play home and home every year, on top of meeting in the Hockey East Tournament some years, right? It's not like a large football conference where you sometimes don't play a team for years.

Not a fan of the Boston teams specifically, but I can field it as it's mostly a history thing.

The Beanpot started in the 1950s, before there was an official "organized" Eastern conference*, and the teams didn't have formalized schedules** like at current. In that context, having a Boston-wide tournament for those teams and matchups makes sense.

*i.e. the ECAC, from which Hockey East devolved in the 1980s; UConn was actually one of the league's initial participants, before it split into a pair of leagues: "university"(D-I) and "college" (D-III); UConn joined the latter.
**The first few decades or so of the ECAC didn't even have an organized schedule; the teams regularly just played whoever they wanted, and standings were kept haphazardly, as access to the tournament came from the decree of the committee rather than with automatic bids. It wasn't until just before the Hockey East teams broke off that there was an attempt at a regularized schedule.

 

[HuskyDogArt]

i never said regularly, but i said earlier we'd average 7-8k in ten years and i stand by that.

I hope that we'll average 7.5K in 9 years and 8.1K in the 10th year. I hope by that time the NHL will realized that Miami, Carolina, Phoenix are a mistake and return 1 of those teams to Hartford. (Maybe a move of Miami being bought by Karmoron and Howard buying the Carolina Hurricanes - Karmoron moving the Panthers to Carolina and Howard bring the Whalers back.)

I can DREAM, can't I??