He ain't heavy, he's my brother

[superjohn]

Sosa last played in 2005. His career tailed off after 2003.

Coincidentally, MLB announced its new drug policy in 2004. That policy included surprise off-season testing.

Ortiz continued to play well -- all while getting tested over and over and over. The "joke" testing has snagged hundreds of offenders since 2004: List of Major League Baseball players suspended for performance-enhancing drugs - Wikipedia

Admitting that Giambi and Clemens used PEDs doesn't mean anything more than me admitting that Manny used them. Pretty easy to admit something as to which there is irrefutable proof.

Oh, and about that "list":

Because the list of players was seized as part of a government investigation and is currently under court-ordered seal pending the outcome of litigation, Weiner said the players union was unable to provide Ortiz with any details about his test result, including what substance he tested positive for.

On the same day, both Major League Baseball[116] and the Major League Baseball Players Association issued statements[117] pointing out that because of several factors, any player appearing on the list compiled by federal investigators in 2003 did not necessarily test positive for performance-enhancing drugs. Among those factors were that the total number of players said to be on the list far exceeded the number of collected specimens that tested positive. In addition, there were questions raised regarding the lab that performed the testing and their interpretation of the positive tests. Also, the statement pointed out that certain legal supplements that were available over the counter at the time could cause a positive test result.

So, just so I have this straight, the post-2004 drug policy involving random surprise testing is a "joke" but a 2003 list that MLB has basically called a "joke" is concrete evidence. Do I understand your position correctly?

You're proud of yourself, rightly so, for ordinarily requiring evidence of guilt before you label someone a criminal. But in this case you're "calling it straight" based on a list that MLB has completely washed its hands of.

The MLB testing after the 2003 list which named Ortiz and Sosa has nabbed a grand total of 78 MLB players over 19 years. So we're looking at 4 MLB players per year. MLB testing has always been a joke.

You can keep doing this routine but nobody actually believes you think Ortiz is clean.

I didn't single out Giambi and Clemens but keep doing you. Most of the Yankees players took steroids, same goes for the Red Sox and other teams.

I'm sure you were one of the dopes who thought the Yankees were the dirty steroid taking evil empire and the Red Sox were clean because of George Mitchell and his report.

 

[Excalibur]

The MLB testing after the 2003 list which named Ortiz and Sosa has nabbed a grand total of 78 MLB players over 19 years. So we're looking at 4 MLB players per year. MLB testing has always been a joke.

You can keep doing this routine but nobody actually believes you think Ortiz is clean.

I didn't single out Giambi and Clemens but keep doing you. Most of the Yankees players took steroids, same goes for the Red Sox and other teams.

I'm sure you were one of the dopes who thought the Yankees were the dirty steroid taking evil empire and the Red Sox were clean because of George Mitchell and his report.

So if everyone (or just about everyone) was on steroids, why are we electing anyone from that era to the Hall of Fame?

 

[superjohn]

So if everyone (or just about everyone) was on steroids, why are we electing anyone from that era to the Hall of Fame?

Ask the voters. Keeping out an entire generation of players for steroids when the league celebrated steroids would be ridiculous in my eyes. It's ridiculous Bonds, Clemens, and ARod aren't in the Hall of Fame.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

The MLB testing after the 2003 list which named Ortiz and Sosa has nabbed a grand total of 78 MLB players over 19 years. So we're looking at 4 MLB players per year. MLB testing has always been a joke.

You can keep doing this routine but nobody actually believes you think Ortiz is clean.

I didn't single out Giambi and Clemens but keep doing you. Most of the Yankees players took steroids, same goes for the Red Sox and other teams.

I'm sure you were one of the dopes who thought the Yankees were the dirty steroid taking evil empire and the Red Sox were clean because of George Mitchell and his report.

A white flag would have been easier.

 

[HooperScooper]

A white flag would have been easier.

Have you ever seen him do that?

 

[superjohn]

A white flag would have been easier.

You also think Ortiz is clean? Mike O'Hearn too?

 

[nomar]

The MLB testing after the 2003 list which named Ortiz and Sosa has nabbed a grand total of 78 MLB players over 19 years. So we're looking at 4 MLB players per year. MLB testing has always been a joke.

You can keep doing this routine but nobody actually believes you think Ortiz is clean.

I didn't single out Giambi and Clemens but keep doing you. Most of the Yankees players took steroids, same goes for the Red Sox and other teams.

I'm sure you were one of the dopes who thought the Yankees were the dirty steroid taking evil empire and the Red Sox were clean because of George Mitchell and his report.

Not sure if you counted correctly, but I note that you intentionally omitted players with MLB experience on minor league rosters as well as instances in which a player was a repeat offender. Did you think we wouldn't notice?

As I said above, either Ortiz was just a great hitter or the most brilliant drug cheat since Lance Armstrong. He says he was randomly tested over 80 times. You've made your mind up as to which and, as we all well know, once Superjohn has his mind made up, forget about it ever being changed.

And, no, I don't think the Yankees were cheaters and the Sox were clean. But you're conflating time periods. Things changed dramatically once the new testing came in--PED use dramatically dropped. You know that, right?

 

[superjohn]

Not sure if you counted correctly, but I note that you intentionally omitted players with MLB experience on minor league rosters as well as instances in which a player was a repeat offender. Did you think we wouldn't notice?

As I said above, either Ortiz was just a great hitter or the most brilliant drug cheat since Lance Armstrong. He says he was randomly tested over 80 times. You've made your mind up as to which and, as we all well know, once Superjohn has his mind made up, forget about it ever being changed.

And, no, I don't think the Yankees were cheaters and the Sox were clean. But you're conflating time periods. Things changed dramatically once the new testing came in--PED use dramatically dropped. You know that, right?

I listed MLB players who tested positive. It wasn't hundreds of MLB players, it was 78 over 19 years.

Ortiz said he was tested 80 times. Oh wow. Ortiz also said he never knowingly took steroids. Steroid users claim they don't take steroids. Steroid users claim they're tested constantly. When steroid users are caught they say it was vitamins they took from a health food store, they ate tainted meat, they never knowingly took steroids etc.

It's incredible people still fall for this crap.

 

[Scoe]

How is that a bad break for the Giants because a receiver couldnt catch the ball?

Just laying out the what ifs, people who are bitter often come up with excuses. I know the Pats won 3 superbowls so that does help mask your bitterness but I can tell you're still bitter about those 2 Giant losses.

 

[TheHorde]

Just laying the what ifs, people who are bitter often come up with excuses. I know the Pats won 3 superbowls so that does help mask your bitterness but I can tell your still bitter about those 2 Giant losses.

Please stop projecting. This thread is about what things impacted a legacy. I thoughtfully laid out points to back that up, not excuses. And you haven’t refuted any. Instead you have tried to distract with snark and I see right through it. Try to stick to the topic here.

 

[Scoe]

Please stop projecting. This thread is about what things impacted a legacy. I thoughtfully laid out points to back that up, not excuses. And you haven’t refuted any. Instead you have tried to distract with snark and I see right through it. Try to stick to the topic here.

No need to get personal this is a message board. I did refute your points with facts. I said Eli's legacy is different without those 2 superbowls. You seem upset that I refuted your points.

Saying Pats win if Gronk isn't hurt is an excuse.

 

[TheHorde]

No need to get personal this is a message board. I did refute your points with facts. I said Eli's legacy is different without those 2 superbowls. You seem upset that I refuted your points.

Saying Pats win if Gronk isn't hurt is an excuse.

You didn’t refute. Agree to disagree. And no not an excuse. I correctly pointed out that Eli caught a break there which helped to change his legacy. That’s just an undeniable fact. The Patriots lost. I accepted that. I can also accept that Eli was a good QB that is not HOF worthy.

 

[Scoe]

You didn’t refute. Agree to disagree. And no not an excuse. I correctly pointed out that Eli caught a break there which helped to change his legacy. That’s just an undeniable fact. The Patriots lost. I accepted that. I can also accept that Eli was a good QB that is not HOF worthy.

I can agree with that. I personally don't think Eli is a HOF but I do think he's on par with Big Ben and Phillip Rivers. Big Ben was more consistent also better teams but Eli was more clutch.

 

[TheHorde]

I can agree with that. I personally don't think Eli is a HOF but I do think he's on par with Big Ben and Phillip Rivers. Big Ben was more consistent also better teams but Eli was more clutch.

That tier seems about right to me too.

 

[Scoe]

I'll add a coach here, Mike Ditka. 85 was the perfect storm for the Bears, best team they played were the Rams in NFC title game, Bill Walsh Niners weren't in the way.

The game passed him by quickly supposedly he lost the locker room by telling his guys not do commercials meanwhile he was in every commercial so just a little hypocritical. Not too many people he's in the HOF as a player his legacy is totally Chicago most notably 85 of course.

 

[Kolumbo]

Scottie Pippen
I think at least one person mentioned Pippen for this list. Happened to see this article claiming the opposite which is interesting, for what it's worth.

Gary Payton on Pippen: "He does so many things. What people don't understand is that he just doesn't have one dimension to his game. He can rebound, he can pound the ball, he can shoot the ball, go to the basket. There are not many guys in the NBA or in the world who can do that. You wish you could play with a guy like that all the time"

MSN

 

[nomar]

I listed MLB players who tested positive. It wasn't hundreds of MLB players, it was 78 over 19 years.

Ortiz said he was tested 80 times. Oh wow. Ortiz also said he never knowingly took steroids. Steroid users claim they don't take steroids. Steroid users claim they're tested constantly. When steroid users are caught they say it was vitamins they took from a health food store, they ate tainted meat, they never knowingly took steroids etc.

It's incredible people still fall for this crap.

Cool vibes-based argument you've made

 

[Excalibur]

I listed MLB players who tested positive. It wasn't hundreds of MLB players, it was 78 over 19 years.

Ortiz said he was tested 80 times. Oh wow. Ortiz also said he never knowingly took steroids. Steroid users claim they don't take steroids. Steroid users claim they're tested constantly. When steroid users are caught they say it was vitamins they took from a health food store, they ate tainted meat, they never knowingly took steroids etc.

It's incredible people still fall for this crap.

I'm on board with letting Bonds/Arod/Clemens etc. into the Hall. But if there is a line to be drawn, it appears to be guys who were caught or admitted to use after testing began for real in 2005. Of the guys worthy of consideration for the HOF, only Ortiz and Sosa don't fall into either category, and Sosa didn't play for very long after that.

 

[QDOG5]

I'll add a coach here, Mike Ditka. 85 was the perfect storm for the Bears, best team they played were the Rams in NFC title game, Bill Walsh Niners weren't in the way.

The game passed him by quickly supposedly he lost the locker room by telling his guys not do commercials meanwhile he was in every commercial so just a little hypocritical. Not too many people he's in the HOF as a player his legacy is totally Chicago most notably 85 of course.

Hall of Fame player. Lousy coach. He had too much talent to only win one super bowl. I always thought he was a horses behind. Having the Fridge score a TD in the super bowl and not Walter Payton was heresy. He got way too much credit for the Bears winning. Half the team put someone else on their shoulders after the super bowl. Enough said. The New Orleans coaching stint and the Rickey Williams trade is proof of what an overrated coach he was.

 

[superjohn]

Cool vibes-based argument you've made

Ortiz claims he didn't intentionally take steroids and Nomar is convinced that means Ortiz never took steroids.

Ortiz says he's the most tested player and throws out the number 80 tests with absolutely nothing to back it up and Nomar is convinced Ortiz was tested 80 times.

Dupetastic!

I'll let you in on something else that will blow your mind, the guy you took your handle from was also juicing.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Ortiz claims he didn't intentionally take steroids and Nomar is convinced that means Ortiz never took steroids.

Ortiz says he's the most tested player and throws out the number 80 tests with absolutely nothing to back it up and Nomar is convinced Ortiz was tested 80 times.

Dupetastic!

I'll let you in on something else that will blow your mind, the guy you took your handle from was also juicing.

I’ve theorized that most of the 2003 Sawx team was juicing. They had 6 guys with 25 or more HRs…

Varitek - career high 25hrs
Millar - career high 25hrs
Nixon - career high 28hrs
Nomar - had some big years prior but ‘03 was his last healthy year in Beantown with 28hrs
Mueller - career high 19 hrs after never hitting more than 10 in any season
Manny hit 37 but that was Manny being Manny and we know his history
Papi of course hit 31hr after 6 mediocre years in Minnesota

 

[nomar]

Ortiz claims he didn't intentionally take steroids and Nomar is convinced that means Ortiz never took steroids.

Ortiz says he's the most tested player and throws out the number 80 tests with absolutely nothing to back it up and Nomar is convinced Ortiz was tested 80 times.

Dupetastic!

I'll let you in on something else that will blow your mind, the guy you took your handle from was also juicing.

Let me blow your mind: Nomar was juicing.

Your argument is weak re Ortiz. I don't need to prove he didn't do PEDs. You need to prove he did. Vibes don't cut it.

 

[superjohn]

Let me blow your mind: Nomar was juicing.

Your argument is weak re Ortiz. I don't need to prove he didn't do PEDs. You need to prove he did. Vibes don't cut it.

Your argument is weak for Nomar juicing.

 

[superjohn]

I’ve theorized that most of the 2003 Sawx team was juicing. They had 6 guys with 25 or more HRs…

Varitek - career high 25hrs
Millar - career high 25hrs
Nixon - career high 28hrs
Nomar - had some big years prior but ‘03 was his last healthy year in Beantown with 28hrs
Mueller - career high 19 hrs after never hitting more than 10 in any season
Manny hit 37 but that was Manny being Manny and we know his history
Papi of course hit 31hr after 6 mediocre years in Minnesota

Or you could go the @nomar route and take all of their words for it that they weren't juicing, or in Ortiz's case not knowingly taking steroids.

Gabe Kapler said he never took steroids and wrote a whole long column about it, so he clearly was just eating chicken and broccoli.

 

[storrsroars]

Your argument is weak for Nomar juicing.

I sat directly across from Nomar on a flight from Dallas to Boston (the night he hurt his arm, either 2000 or 2001). He didn't take any pills or shoot any needles, or mention juicing when I asked why he was on the flight when Sox were still @Texas. Therefore I conclude he wasn't juicing.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Or you could go the @nomar route and take all of their words for it that they weren't juicing, or in Ortiz's case not knowingly taking steroids.

Gabe Kapler said he never took steroids and wrote a whole long column about it, so he clearly was just eating chicken and broccoli.

I’ve had a few tall ones at the hockey rink watching my daughter learn how to play goalie so I won’t add anything and I like @nomar as a poster so I’ll leave it alone. End of the day we’re all Husky fans and on the same side.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Injuries aside of course. T Mac was an all-time talent and scorer. He just never won anything because he had horrible rosters (and the injury problems).

Shaq would have won more with T-Mac than Kobe

 

[Deleted at users request]

Shaq would have won more with T-Mac than Kobe

T-Mac was a level above Kobe as a passer. He was one of the best pick and roll players in the game with Yao.

He would’ve feasted with Shaq for sure.

 

[nomar]

Or you could go the @nomar route and take all of their words for it that they weren't juicing, or in Ortiz's case not knowingly taking steroids.

Gabe Kapler said he never took steroids and wrote a whole long column about it, so he clearly was just eating chicken and broccoli.

It's not based on his denials. Don't be fatuous.

He raked for 13 years after that 2003 list came out, was repeatedly subject to random testing, and never tested positive. His body shape never dramatically changed. Even when he was a rookie and "skinny," he looked like David Ortiz.

You're calling someone a juicer, you need to bring some evidence other than a list (from 13 years before his career ended) that MLB has said was unreliable. Putting aside actual evidence, where's your circumstantial evidence, other than your vibes?

So as I said before, he's either a great player or the world's greatest cheat. We'll agree to disagree as to which, but insisting that I'm merely taking him at his word is disingenuous. Good for quick likes from Sox haters, nothing more.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Ortiz claims he didn't intentionally take steroids and Nomar is convinced that means Ortiz never took steroids.

Ortiz says he's the most tested player and throws out the number 80 tests with absolutely nothing to back it up and Nomar is convinced Ortiz was tested 80 times.

Dupetastic!

I'll let you in on something else that will blow your mind, the guy you took your handle from was also juicing.

I gotta say, it's genuinely ludicrous that you're still doing this and insulting the other guy in this one. Every one of your takes is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming while the other person talks.