Hartford’s XL Center is a prime candidate for major sports betting venue, providing possible boost for long-debated renovation (Courant)

[Pudge]

It sort of is but Covid messed up any real analysis. Springfield was essentially shut down for a few months then opened to limited capacity all after a year or 2 into opening.

Atlantic City was a slum with a beautiful beach. Then it became a Slum with casinos and a beautiful beach...

There was a moment in time that Atlantic City was gonna be the NEXT casino concentration. Before a few dozen others. On the East Coast. There's Las Vegas ... but you can get to AC within hours by bus trip; near Phila and NYC etc; and they had big strong companies coming in hard.

Missed Opportunity. A solid developer and a solid businessman could have made some of the me-too follow to Vegas and polished it into a bigger better mousetrap.

... and yes, it had a before - even before your first slum. There were boardwalk and things going on. I guess I need to watch Boardwalk Empire

 

[Mr. Hand]

Casinos and gaming are like a regressive tax. there is no value in games of chance and nothing is built.

If you spend $1000 dining, great, you created economic movement. If you spent $1000 gambling, there is very little economic movement with that spend. You are waging deferred economic activity vs. a greater future economic activity. If you lose, you canceled future economic activity.

It works the same was as taxes. the money is collected and the individual can't make any economic impact with the money once collected. If too many locals go to a casino, it destroys the local economy.

This is not true. Of the total money gambled in any given month, the lion's share of it comes from just a few dozen high roller accounts with virtually unlimited markers. All of this money would have zero chance of winding up bolstering Connecticut's tax coffers were there no casino.

In at least that sense, a casino has some benefit. The social and economic impact to the local community is cancerous, no desputing that, but in the short term. That negative impact fades little by little over time, never going away completely, but eventually the locals are only made up of those people not interested in gambling. With regular access, only those with staying power remain for long.

This is why the casinos can look as empty as they do yet still make money by the bushel. It's a luxury tax. You need to have money to burn to be a regular patron, and regulars are any casino's bread and butter.

 

[freescooter]

Pudge,

I agree with everything you wrote. Atlantic City had lots of potential. It was wasted because they had no plan to take advantage of what they had. And a bunch of get rich quick developers.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Yeah, love you John but that mostly word salad.

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is not true. Of the total money gambled in any given month, the lion's share of it comes from just a few dozen high roller accounts with virtually unlimited markers. All of this money would have zero chance of winding up bolstering Connecticut's tax coffers were there no casino.

In at least that sense, a casino has some benefit. The social and economic impact to the local community is cancerous, no desputing that, but in the short term. That negative impact fades little by little over time, never going away completely, but eventually the locals are only made up of those people not interested in gambling. With regular access, only those with staying power remain for long.

This is why the casinos can look as empty as they do yet still make money by the bushel. It's a luxury tax. You need to have money to burn to be a regular patron, and regulars are any casino's bread and butter.

Both things are true. I am looking at it from a negative point of view. There are also positives to having money in the area, such as what has happened in CT. It is a voluntary luxury tax. It works the same though...very regressive. TBH, the lottery system in CT is a voluntary tax. Think about the demographic that plays the lotto. Mostly lower incomes. It is like a poor tax.

But the revenue of gaming is so big, it solves a lot of problems. And, people are adults.

 

[CL82]

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort

Said differently, casinos work as an economic engine but not as redevelopment tool for an existing city. I'm not sure how good an analogy Vegas is since it was basically created from nothing in the '50s. Can you think of an existing city that was successfully revitalized by the addition of gambling? They may be out there, but I can't think of one.

 

[Pudge]

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort.

That's not the Atlantic City story. You could not have a better mix of opportunity market in 1987. Drive distance from NYC and Phila. Baltimore, NE and upstate NY too. No real competition other than Vegas at that moment. They just totally blew it. Today, the allure of major events and top golf courses bring busloads (lots of Asians) from major US markets and Toronto to ... Verona NY east of Syracuse. Success. Methinks it was hard to blow it in AC ... but they did.

 

[Pudge]

Said differently, casinos work as an economic engine but not as redevelopment tool for an existing city. I'm not sure how good an analogy Vegas is since it was basically created from nothing in the '50s. Can you think of an existing city that was successfully revitalized by the addition of gambling? They may be out there, but I can't think of one.

This is an incredibly diverse huge market today. It wasn't in 1987. The Detroit, Midwest riverboats, Mississippi near Memphis, Florida, etc ... I think all of that is modest. I have watched friends I know well start the new one in Schenectady - with major Chicago partner Neil Bluhm. Not gangbusting profit ... but it has been a significant boost to a formerly rundown city; but it piled on 20 years of good work by Metroplex - the regional economic development corp.

There's no Disney magic. You can see lots of failed Mixed use that was promoted broadly in the Northeast. College campuses tried mixed use; and some have hugely succeeded (not Storrs) ... but there was something something before the new ground up. The one to watch as a UCONN stakeholder ... Penn State. Middle of nowhere. Will people live there; will businesses move there ... just because they are trying to diversify

 

[nomar]

Can you actually go to the beach there?

I went to a bachelor party probably 15 years ago and we swam at the beach right in front of the boardwalk. We stayed at the Tropicana.

I stayed at the Revel before it was shut down and it was super nice.

 

[CL82]

I should have included this in my original post, but when I go to Atlantic City, I go to the beach in Brigantine, which is just right over that bridge near Harrah's. I go for a walk out on the beach in AC later on in the afternoon or early evening when its less crowded, but as far as spending the day at the beach, I do that on Brigantine.

I love the beach at Brigantine. It is overlooked versus a lot of other NJ shore destinations. I got a house down there when my kids were young. It was perfect for that purpose. If we wanted a little more to do at night we'd head more touristy beaches.

 

[Ts5034]

I love the beach at Brigantine. It is overlooked versus a lot of other NJ shore destinations. I got a house down there when my kids were young. It was perfect for that purpose. If we wanted a little more to do at night we'd head more touristy beaches.

Love Brigantine as well. Its funny because it seems like not that many people know about it outside of my inner circle that goes there...even people the regularly go to Atlantic City don’t know about Brigantine when it’s right over the bridge. The beach is great, It’s nice and quiet, never too over crowded, It has some pretty good restaurants like The Cove, Andre’s, and of course WaWa.

 

[Pudge]

of course

if you have not lived in Greater Philadelphia or in NJ, WaWa is something else. Go to work ... and stop to get gas. And their Breakfast sandwiches were awesome. Simply a cut above Cumberland Farms or Stewarts or whatever

 

[JohnFSilver]

That's not the Atlantic City story. You could not have a better mix of opportunity market in 1987. Drive distance from NYC and Phila. Baltimore, NE and upstate NY too. No real competition other than Vegas at that moment. They just totally blew it. Today, the allure of major events and top golf courses bring busloads (lots of Asians) from major US markets and Toronto to ... Verona NY east of Syracuse. Success. Methinks it was hard to blow it in AC ... but they did.

The place was awful and gaudy. I dont know why it has failed, but that is prime property to be that dilapidated. Just blow up casinos and make it a resort town.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is an incredibly diverse huge market today. It wasn't in 1987. The Detroit, Midwest riverboats, Mississippi near Memphis, Florida, etc ... I think all of that is modest. I have watched friends I know well start the new one in Schenectady - with major Chicago partner Neil Bluhm. Not gangbusting profit ... but it has been a significant boost to a formerly rundown city; but it piled on 20 years of good work by Metroplex - the regional economic development corp.

There's no Disney magic. You can see lots of failed Mixed use that was promoted broadly in the Northeast. College campuses tried mixed use; and some have hugely succeeded (not Storrs) ... but there was something something before the new ground up. The one to watch as a UCONN stakeholder ... Penn State. Middle of nowhere. Will people live there; will businesses move there ... just because they are trying to diversify

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The thing about AC and the Jersey shore is it seems like families from PA and NY always go to the same beach, the same week, every year.

THE family vacation is a week at the shore and once your family gets a beach location, it may stay that way for 20-30 years.

From what I was told my family used to go to AC when both my parents were kids and their families went there every year. I was too young to remember but when AC brought in the casinos my family moved the summer trip to Ocean City. We could take a day trip to AC, walk the boardwalk, see the rides on the pier, etc., but staying at AC was no longer an option.

 

[Dooooooomed]

I stay at one of my buddies' places in Ventor or Margate. Nicer/safer beach towns and easy uber to the casinos/entertainment.

 

[Mr. Hand]

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

The state is right now in the process of resurfacing a 5+ mile stretch of rt 44, widening some parts, straightening out some curves. Give it 5 to 10 years and 44 becomes a 4 lane road like rt 6.

Also, they should build a massive parking garage on the depot campus, they certainly have tons of room.

 

[Pudge]

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

John: do you know that I was involved with the original winning bid - developers from Tuxedo NY and Montreal - and watched (and agonized over the Mansfield Economic Development/Town) as it emerged from conceptual plan to groundbreaking. I guess I thought it would become a Campus Disneyland. My UCONN (now Alum) daughter lived there with girlfriends and I have spent much of the last decade in Student Housing finance. I would say it is an unrealized concept. I am pleased that Price Chopper came (because that was always a concern as a student and later as a stakeholder). But, my "vision" of a COLLEGETOWN is there are solid jobs and generational community - not just students. It is what it is. The UNITS themselves are ... unimpressive to a professional. The mix of retail / restaurant tenancy is ... good. The link with buses and transportation is excellent.

 

[Pudge]

The thing about AC and the Jersey shore is it seems like families from PA and NY always go to the same beach, the same week, every year.

THE family vacation is a week at the shore and once your family gets a beach location, it may stay that way for 20-30 years.

From what I was told my family used to go to AC when both my parents were kids and their families went there every year. I was too young to remember but when AC brought in the casinos my family moved the summer trip to Ocean City. We could take a day trip to AC, walk the boardwalk, see the rides on the pier, etc., but staying at AC was no longer an option.

This was EXACTLY what I experienced. I worked for a Professional Firm in Philadelphia and the 2 partners followed this exactly. Both grew up in upper middle class Main Line communities and both went to the same block their parents took them too as kids.

 

[auror]

I can't imagine going to a venue to bet in-person if I can do it from an app instead.

Except for maybe certain "events" that would be fun with a crowd. But to just place daily wagers? No way man.

 

[Fishy]

Yeah, love you John but that mostly word salad.

It’s not.

It was very well stated.

 

[CL82]

It’s not.

It was very well stated.

Respectfully disagree. It’s filled with the misuse of terms like ‘regressive tax’ that sound good superficially but aren’t particularly applicable. Just my humble opinion though.

 

[JohnFSilver]

John: do you know that I was involved with the original winning bid - developers from Tuxedo NY and Montreal - and watched (and agonized over the Mansfield Economic Development/Town) as it emerged from conceptual plan to groundbreaking. I guess I thought it would become a Campus Disneyland. My UCONN (now Alum) daughter lived there with girlfriends and I have spent much of the last decade in Student Housing finance. I would say it is an unrealized concept. I am pleased that Price Chopper came (because that was always a concern as a student and later as a stakeholder). But, my "vision" of a COLLEGETOWN is there are solid jobs and generational community - not just students. It is what it is. The UNITS themselves are ... unimpressive to a professional. The mix of retail / restaurant tenancy is ... good. The link with buses and transportation is excellent.

That is terrible to hear. So you are thinking young professionals and business growing around the area?

I am going from Store 24 to what they had now. But perhaps we need more imagination with it. In your opinion, is EO Smith getting moved an option? UConn needs that land for development.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Respectfully disagree. It’s filled with the misuse of terms like ‘regressive tax’ that sound good superficially but aren’t particularly applicable. Just my humble opinion though.

Wait. Gambling acts like a regressive tax. Regressive Tax

Poor people who gamble risk a higher percentage of their income than wealthier people. The less wealth you have, the more percentage of your income you gamble. $1000 to a millionaire vs. a $1000 to a dude making 30K is a different level of income percentage. Gambling is definitely regressive in nature. Always has been and when the government sanctions it (lottery for example) it is a regressive tax. I am not brilliant here, a lot of economic literature on the nature of state-sponsored gambling and its function as a regressive tax on the population.

When the state offers gambling to raise revenue (lottery) instead of raising income taxes by income level, that is choosing a regressive use tax (though voluntary) over a progressive taxation system to fund the government.

I am not saying it isn't good. But the government doesn't have shareholders and isn't a business. All money it collects are taxes, even if they aren't called it.

Think of it in those terms. The only way government collects revenue is through taxes. When we use money from the lottery to fund education, we are instituting a regressive tax to pay for education.

 

[Pudge]

That is terrible to hear. So you are thinking young professionals and business growing around the area?

I am going from Store 24 to what they had now. But perhaps we need more imagination with it. In your opinion, is EO Smith getting moved an option? UConn needs that land for development.

OK ... we are talking decades. Wasteland that was on Dog's Lane to today.

So ... begin your tour in Ann Arbor. THEN ... think what the industry of Student Housing Development (really did not exist in much concentration before 2004) and the oodles of institutional money that lined up to get that push. If you haven't been to a Arizona State or a South Carolina or a Georgia ... you haven't seen LUXURY student residence yet. With the largesse of capital, came the desire to make the University demand driver and anchor for lots of other property types and mixed use collegetown. Nearby, UNH has a sweet little downtown; Rutgers is 200% better; Maryland is hugely built up. But the Capital was there ... and Storrs Center is rather modest in scale. The University of Connecticut has plenty of Land - like amazing amount of land. The Depot Campus plus others are in concept form and things take forever in Mansfield/UCONN. That University has kept major Institutional Money/Developers away ... and not encouraged them. Carriage House? Landmark with Abu Dhabi capital wanted to do a massive project. But to be a liveable community, a University should want jobs and multigenerational life. The concerts, sporting events, mix, restaurants ... should make a UCONN a desirable home.



EO Smith eradication is not high on my personal vision for my favorite University. There are lots of opportunities ready to be enacted.

 

[CL82]

Wait. Gambling acts like a regressive tax. Regressive Tax

Poor people who gamble risk a higher percentage of their income than wealthier people. The less wealth you have, the more percentage of your income you gamble. $1000 to a millionaire vs. a $1000 to a dude making 30K is a different level of income percentage. Gambling is definitely regressive in nature. Always has been and when the government sanctions it (lottery for example) it is a regressive tax. I am not brilliant here, a lot of economic literature on the nature of state-sponsored gambling and its function as a regressive tax on the population. It's why the flat tax is never seriously considered. Too regressive.

When the state offers gambling to raise revenue (lottery) instead of raising income taxes by income level, that is choosing a regressive use tax (though voluntary) over a progressive taxation system to fund the government.

I am not saying it isn't good. But the government doesn't have shareholders and isn't a business. All money it collects are taxes, even if they aren't called it.

Yeah, sorry if I came off dismissive on this John. I disagree. Let me explain why.

Gambling isn't a tax because it isn't a compulsory contribution to state revenue. No one forces anyone to gamble. It is a discretionary entertainment expenditure. Likewise, it isn't a payment toward state revenue, anymore than say going to the theater. There is a private agency that reaps the profit. Yes, they pay taxes on that profit but that is no different than any other business. Calling gambling a regressive tax is a misuse of that term.

Do you know for a fact that gambling disproportionate impact the the indigent or are you speculating? Is there data that supports that? Not other speculation, but hard data? I think it certainly could be true, but without hard data, it is mere speculation.

Discretionary spending invariably stimulates the economy and yes that is a good thing (usually).

Finally a flat tax may or may not be regressive based upon the income levels that against which it is applied. A flat tax of say 20% on all income would be regressive but a flat tax of 10% on all income over $10M would not.

 

[Waquoit]

They had gambling at Valley Forge, it's part of our heritage. I drove cross country 15 years ago and stopped in states that had real, legal slot machines in bars. Anecdotal I know, but I never saw anyone playing the things. Forbidden fruit is so powerful, I think proliferation lessens the urge.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Yeah, sorry if I came off dismissive on this John. I disagree. Let me explain why.

Gambling isn't a tax because it isn't a compulsory contribution to state revenue. No one forces anyone to gamble. It is a discretionary entertainment expenditure. Likewise, it isn't a payment toward state revenue, anymore than say going to the theater. There is a private agency that reaps the profit. Yes, they pay taxes on that profit but that is no different than any other business. Calling gambling a regressive tax is a misuse of that term.

Do you know for a fact that gambling disproportionate impact the the indigent or are you speculating? Is there data that supports that? Not other speculation, but hard data? I think it certainly could be true, but without hard data, it is mere speculation.

Discretionary spending invariably stimulates the economy and yes that is a good thing (usually).

Finally a flat tax may or may not be regressive based upon the income levels that against which it is applied. A flat tax of say 20% on all income would be regressive but a flat tax of 10% on all income over $10M would not.

I am not offended.

This goes back into the meaning -- what is a tax! LOL. Many taxes are voluntary and regressive (sales, fishing licenses, tobacco).

You are saying discretionary spending stimulates the economy. I am saying, OF COURSE, IT DOES! But the way gambling functions, with a state-sponsored actor (lottery at 100%), you are removing that discretionary spending from the economy. It reduces discretionary spending. Nothing is bought or sold in the transaction. That is my entire point.

In that way, gambling acts like a tax. Throw it in a slot, or send a check to the government. That money is removed from circulation temporarily. It isn't like you bought or sold something. Also, the cut is gross. Foxwood could be losing money at the casino, taking big losses, and state still getting its cut regardless of profitability.

Gambling can be a very destructive force on an economy if it gets out of hand. It is like drugs for politicians. Easy way to get revenue and not have to raise income taxes.

We just have to be very careful that gambling is a panacea. If people use their discretionary income for gambling, that money is not spent in the economy. It is collected and siphoned to the state.

25% of gross revenue from Foxwoods and Mohegan slots are given to the state. That is a tax. The state is not providing any service or commodity and is not stimulating the economy.

Next time someone puts $100 into a slot. $25 went to Connecticut for just allowing you to do it. Mohegan takes the other $75 and figures out how to make money on it.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Love Brigantine as well. Its funny because it seems like not that many people know about it outside of my inner circle that goes there...even people the regularly go to Atlantic City don’t know about Brigantine when it’s right over the bridge. The beach is great, It’s nice and quiet, never too over crowded, It has some pretty good restaurants like The Cove, Andre’s, and of course WaWa.

My brother-in-law has a place in Brigantine right near the Elks Lodge that we go to a couple of times a summer. Really nice option and quick Uber drive if you don't want to stay in AC. We would usually go to the drive-on beach. Spent a lot of time at The Cellar, Laguna Grill and Rod n Reel years ago before kids.

 

[CL82]

I am not offended.

This goes back into the meaning -- what is a tax! LOL. Many taxes are voluntary and regressive (sales, fishing licenses, tobacco).

A tax is a compulsory payment that go to benefit of state government. Sales tax is compulsory (sort of) but the underlying purchases are not. Same with tobacco. A fishing license is a use fee.

You are saying discretionary spending stimulates the economy. I am saying, OF COURSE, IT DOES! But the way gambling functions, with a state-sponsored actor (lottery at 100%), you are removing that discretionary spending from the economy. It reduces discretionary spending. Nothing is bought or sold in the transaction. That is my entire point.

Money spent gambling doesn't evaporate. It remains in the economy.

In that way, gambling acts like a tax. Throw it in a slot, or send a check to the government. That money is removed from circulation temporarily. It isn't like you bought or sold something. Also, the cut is gross. Foxwood could be losing money at the casino, taking big losses, and state still getting its cut regardless of profitability.

Buy that argument any expenditure is a de facto tax. Buy a bottle of infant formula or send a check to the government. Discretionary purchases are different from a compulsory payment to support the government.

Yes, entities that provide services pay taxes. That doesn't make the a branch of the government.

Gambling can be a very destructive force on an economy if it gets out of hand. It is like drugs for politicians. Easy way to get revenue and not have to raise income taxes.

Fully agree that gambling can disruptive to a micro-economy, like a family or group. I'm not sure when it is legal that it is all that destructive to the economy of a government.

We just have to be very careful that gambling is a panacea. If people use their discretionary income for gambling, that money is not spent in the economy. It is collected and siphoned to the state.

I agree that the legalization of gambling needs to be done thoughtful. Remember though that the vast majority of that money (unless you are talking the lottery) does not go to the state.

25% of gross revenue from Foxwoods and Mohegan slots are given to the state. That is a tax. The state is not providing any service or commodity and is not stimulating the economy.

Agree that that is a tax. Those revenues absolutely "stimulate the economy."

Where Does All the Casino Money Go?​

Next time someone puts $100 into a slot. $25 went to Connecticut for just allowing you to do it. Mohegan takes the other $75 and figures out how to make money on it.

Yes it does. What does the state do with it?

Known today as the Mashantucket Pequot and Mohegan Fund (Pequot Fund), a portion of the money raised through casino gaming is set aside and placed into this separate nonlapsing account so that it can be allocated to each and every municipality in the form of state aid. In its 17 years in existence, the fund has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in state aid to our local communities. Money that does not get diverted into this fund goes directly into the General Fund.

Simplified, the state's gambling agreement lessens the tax burden on individual taxpayers.