Hartford’s XL Center is a prime candidate for major sports betting venue, providing possible boost for long-debated renovation (Courant)

[Pudge]

Casino's are nice enough, I suppose, particularly Borgata, but AC proper is an armpit. Casinos do have regional benefits in that they create jobs.

Having lived in Philadelphia, I can give you a long narrative as to what is good about the Atlantic City immediate area (leaving out the rough neighborhoods). I would get political in about a nano ... it was the bankruptcies that turned blocks dark. And like a mall that loses an anchor, the good restaurants and the draws beyond the casino get smudged. The immediate beach to the south Ventnor City to Stone Point to Avalon - there are a lot of gorgeous homes and a smattering of good food. Beaches? Funny thing is that entire neighborhoods from upper middle class Philly move to the saame Jersey town in the summer. You will find friends who are hanging with the same guys they knew in HS. The train from Philadelphia City Center to AC was ridiculously cheap - like $8 I remember.

When Revel opened, I thought it was beautiful. Then got to that second floor ... and nobody was there.

The number of new casino locations since 2012 is incredible.

 

[Ts5034]

Can you actually go to the beach there?

I should have included this in my original post, but when I go to Atlantic City, I go to the beach in Brigantine, which is just right over that bridge near Harrah's. I go for a walk out on the beach in AC later on in the afternoon or early evening when its less crowded, but as far as spending the day at the beach, I do that on Brigantine.

 

[Ts5034]

Having lived in Philadelphia, I can give you a long narrative as to what is good about the Atlantic City immediate area (leaving out the rough neighborhoods). I would get political in about a nano ... it was the bankruptcies that turned blocks dark. And like a mall that loses an anchor, the good restaurants and the draws beyond the casino get smudged. The immediate beach to the south Ventnor City to Stone Point to Avalon - there are a lot of gorgeous homes and a smattering of good food. Beaches? Funny thing is that entire neighborhoods from upper middle class Philly move to the saame Jersey town in the summer. You will find friends who are hanging with the same guys they knew in HS. The train from Philadelphia City Center to AC was ridiculously cheap - like $8 I remember.

When Revel opened, I thought it was beautiful. Then got to that second floor ... and nobody was there.

The number of new casino locations since 2012 is incredible.

The revel really is a beautiful property. For whatever the reason, they could not get people in the building to spend money. I read a story shortly after it closed that one of their down falls was they tried to cater more toward the "high roller" crowd, and it simply didn't work out. Ive been back there to Ocean since the new management took over, and from what I see and hear, they are doing a lot better. The whole thing really was a shame, you had a big brand new 3 year old hotel and casino property literally sitting there vacant. It's good that somebody was able to come in and open it back up while being successful.

 

[freescooter]

Forget AC, how is Springfield doing? That's apple to apples.

It sort of is but Covid messed up any real analysis. Springfield was essentially shut down for a few months then opened to limited capacity all after a year or 2 into opening.

Ridiculous Planning Bonanza. Too many cities try so hard for Casinos ... and watching my in-laws I know the market has been expanded by about 4 in 20 years ... and it is simply not the big economic haymaker people think. And if it not done well, it becomes an albatross. OK ... I won't spend 40 lines on Atlantic City

Atlantic City was a slum with a beautiful beach. Then it became a Slum with casinos and a beautiful beach...

 

[freescooter]

I don’t remember the insurance angle. I thought it was general concern about the “unsavory element” casinos would attract.

Yeah, that was part but the insurers were death on it. I sat in many meetings on that. They thought it gave the impression 5hat what they did = gambling too. In a way it probably does. But I particularly remember the Travelers guy

 

[Pudge]

It sort of is but Covid messed up any real analysis. Springfield was essentially shut down for a few months then opened to limited capacity all after a year or 2 into opening.

Atlantic City was a slum with a beautiful beach. Then it became a Slum with casinos and a beautiful beach...

There was a moment in time that Atlantic City was gonna be the NEXT casino concentration. Before a few dozen others. On the East Coast. There's Las Vegas ... but you can get to AC within hours by bus trip; near Phila and NYC etc; and they had big strong companies coming in hard.

Missed Opportunity. A solid developer and a solid businessman could have made some of the me-too follow to Vegas and polished it into a bigger better mousetrap.

... and yes, it had a before - even before your first slum. There were boardwalk and things going on. I guess I need to watch Boardwalk Empire

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Casinos and gaming are like a regressive tax. there is no value in games of chance and nothing is built.

If you spend $1000 dining, great, you created economic movement. If you spent $1000 gambling, there is very little economic movement with that spend. You are waging deferred economic activity vs. a greater future economic activity. If you lose, you canceled future economic activity.

It works the same was as taxes. the money is collected and the individual can't make any economic impact with the money once collected. If too many locals go to a casino, it destroys the local economy.

This is not true. Of the total money gambled in any given month, the lion's share of it comes from just a few dozen high roller accounts with virtually unlimited markers. All of this money would have zero chance of winding up bolstering Connecticut's tax coffers were there no casino.

In at least that sense, a casino has some benefit. The social and economic impact to the local community is cancerous, no desputing that, but in the short term. That negative impact fades little by little over time, never going away completely, but eventually the locals are only made up of those people not interested in gambling. With regular access, only those with staying power remain for long.

This is why the casinos can look as empty as they do yet still make money by the bushel. It's a luxury tax. You need to have money to burn to be a regular patron, and regulars are any casino's bread and butter.

 

[freescooter]

Pudge,

I agree with everything you wrote. Atlantic City had lots of potential. It was wasted because they had no plan to take advantage of what they had. And a bunch of get rich quick developers.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Yeah, love you John but that mostly word salad.

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is not true. Of the total money gambled in any given month, the lion's share of it comes from just a few dozen high roller accounts with virtually unlimited markers. All of this money would have zero chance of winding up bolstering Connecticut's tax coffers were there no casino.

In at least that sense, a casino has some benefit. The social and economic impact to the local community is cancerous, no desputing that, but in the short term. That negative impact fades little by little over time, never going away completely, but eventually the locals are only made up of those people not interested in gambling. With regular access, only those with staying power remain for long.

This is why the casinos can look as empty as they do yet still make money by the bushel. It's a luxury tax. You need to have money to burn to be a regular patron, and regulars are any casino's bread and butter.

Both things are true. I am looking at it from a negative point of view. There are also positives to having money in the area, such as what has happened in CT. It is a voluntary luxury tax. It works the same though...very regressive. TBH, the lottery system in CT is a voluntary tax. Think about the demographic that plays the lotto. Mostly lower incomes. It is like a poor tax.

But the revenue of gaming is so big, it solves a lot of problems. And, people are adults.

 

[CL82]

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort

Said differently, casinos work as an economic engine but not as redevelopment tool for an existing city. I'm not sure how good an analogy Vegas is since it was basically created from nothing in the '50s. Can you think of an existing city that was successfully revitalized by the addition of gambling? They may be out there, but I can't think of one.

 

[Pudge]

LOL. Yeah. Simply, locals can't go to a casino or it will destroy the area. You need to bring outside money in. That's why those rural casinos work. Same way Vegas works. If locals are the only ones that go to Casinos, the place will become atlantic city, which is an awful place. They should get rid of all the casinos there, and make it a gambling free resort.

That's not the Atlantic City story. You could not have a better mix of opportunity market in 1987. Drive distance from NYC and Phila. Baltimore, NE and upstate NY too. No real competition other than Vegas at that moment. They just totally blew it. Today, the allure of major events and top golf courses bring busloads (lots of Asians) from major US markets and Toronto to ... Verona NY east of Syracuse. Success. Methinks it was hard to blow it in AC ... but they did.

 

[Pudge]

Said differently, casinos work as an economic engine but not as redevelopment tool for an existing city. I'm not sure how good an analogy Vegas is since it was basically created from nothing in the '50s. Can you think of an existing city that was successfully revitalized by the addition of gambling? They may be out there, but I can't think of one.

This is an incredibly diverse huge market today. It wasn't in 1987. The Detroit, Midwest riverboats, Mississippi near Memphis, Florida, etc ... I think all of that is modest. I have watched friends I know well start the new one in Schenectady - with major Chicago partner Neil Bluhm. Not gangbusting profit ... but it has been a significant boost to a formerly rundown city; but it piled on 20 years of good work by Metroplex - the regional economic development corp.

There's no Disney magic. You can see lots of failed Mixed use that was promoted broadly in the Northeast. College campuses tried mixed use; and some have hugely succeeded (not Storrs) ... but there was something something before the new ground up. The one to watch as a UCONN stakeholder ... Penn State. Middle of nowhere. Will people live there; will businesses move there ... just because they are trying to diversify

 

[nomar]

Can you actually go to the beach there?

I went to a bachelor party probably 15 years ago and we swam at the beach right in front of the boardwalk. We stayed at the Tropicana.

I stayed at the Revel before it was shut down and it was super nice.

 

[CL82]

I should have included this in my original post, but when I go to Atlantic City, I go to the beach in Brigantine, which is just right over that bridge near Harrah's. I go for a walk out on the beach in AC later on in the afternoon or early evening when its less crowded, but as far as spending the day at the beach, I do that on Brigantine.

I love the beach at Brigantine. It is overlooked versus a lot of other NJ shore destinations. I got a house down there when my kids were young. It was perfect for that purpose. If we wanted a little more to do at night we'd head more touristy beaches.

 

[Ts5034]

I love the beach at Brigantine. It is overlooked versus a lot of other NJ shore destinations. I got a house down there when my kids were young. It was perfect for that purpose. If we wanted a little more to do at night we'd head more touristy beaches.

Love Brigantine as well. Its funny because it seems like not that many people know about it outside of my inner circle that goes there...even people the regularly go to Atlantic City don’t know about Brigantine when it’s right over the bridge. The beach is great, It’s nice and quiet, never too over crowded, It has some pretty good restaurants like The Cove, Andre’s, and of course WaWa.

 

[Pudge]

of course

if you have not lived in Greater Philadelphia or in NJ, WaWa is something else. Go to work ... and stop to get gas. And their Breakfast sandwiches were awesome. Simply a cut above Cumberland Farms or Stewarts or whatever

 

[JohnFSilver]

That's not the Atlantic City story. You could not have a better mix of opportunity market in 1987. Drive distance from NYC and Phila. Baltimore, NE and upstate NY too. No real competition other than Vegas at that moment. They just totally blew it. Today, the allure of major events and top golf courses bring busloads (lots of Asians) from major US markets and Toronto to ... Verona NY east of Syracuse. Success. Methinks it was hard to blow it in AC ... but they did.

The place was awful and gaudy. I dont know why it has failed, but that is prime property to be that dilapidated. Just blow up casinos and make it a resort town.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is an incredibly diverse huge market today. It wasn't in 1987. The Detroit, Midwest riverboats, Mississippi near Memphis, Florida, etc ... I think all of that is modest. I have watched friends I know well start the new one in Schenectady - with major Chicago partner Neil Bluhm. Not gangbusting profit ... but it has been a significant boost to a formerly rundown city; but it piled on 20 years of good work by Metroplex - the regional economic development corp.

There's no Disney magic. You can see lots of failed Mixed use that was promoted broadly in the Northeast. College campuses tried mixed use; and some have hugely succeeded (not Storrs) ... but there was something something before the new ground up. The one to watch as a UCONN stakeholder ... Penn State. Middle of nowhere. Will people live there; will businesses move there ... just because they are trying to diversify

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The thing about AC and the Jersey shore is it seems like families from PA and NY always go to the same beach, the same week, every year.

THE family vacation is a week at the shore and once your family gets a beach location, it may stay that way for 20-30 years.

From what I was told my family used to go to AC when both my parents were kids and their families went there every year. I was too young to remember but when AC brought in the casinos my family moved the summer trip to Ocean City. We could take a day trip to AC, walk the boardwalk, see the rides on the pier, etc., but staying at AC was no longer an option.

 

[Dooooooomed]

I stay at one of my buddies' places in Ventor or Margate. Nicer/safer beach towns and easy uber to the casinos/entertainment.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

The state is right now in the process of resurfacing a 5+ mile stretch of rt 44, widening some parts, straightening out some curves. Give it 5 to 10 years and 44 becomes a 4 lane road like rt 6.

Also, they should build a massive parking garage on the depot campus, they certainly have tons of room.

 

[Pudge]

You don't like Storrs Center? I think it is pretty nice. The development there is excellent. Transportation is the last piece connecting it to Hartford easily (thinking expanding dedicated busway). I think it still has potential. I think UConn needs to take EO Smith over. LOL. They need the land for development.

John: do you know that I was involved with the original winning bid - developers from Tuxedo NY and Montreal - and watched (and agonized over the Mansfield Economic Development/Town) as it emerged from conceptual plan to groundbreaking. I guess I thought it would become a Campus Disneyland. My UCONN (now Alum) daughter lived there with girlfriends and I have spent much of the last decade in Student Housing finance. I would say it is an unrealized concept. I am pleased that Price Chopper came (because that was always a concern as a student and later as a stakeholder). But, my "vision" of a COLLEGETOWN is there are solid jobs and generational community - not just students. It is what it is. The UNITS themselves are ... unimpressive to a professional. The mix of retail / restaurant tenancy is ... good. The link with buses and transportation is excellent.

 

[Pudge]

The thing about AC and the Jersey shore is it seems like families from PA and NY always go to the same beach, the same week, every year.

THE family vacation is a week at the shore and once your family gets a beach location, it may stay that way for 20-30 years.

From what I was told my family used to go to AC when both my parents were kids and their families went there every year. I was too young to remember but when AC brought in the casinos my family moved the summer trip to Ocean City. We could take a day trip to AC, walk the boardwalk, see the rides on the pier, etc., but staying at AC was no longer an option.

This was EXACTLY what I experienced. I worked for a Professional Firm in Philadelphia and the 2 partners followed this exactly. Both grew up in upper middle class Main Line communities and both went to the same block their parents took them too as kids.

 

[auror]

I can't imagine going to a venue to bet in-person if I can do it from an app instead.

Except for maybe certain "events" that would be fun with a crowd. But to just place daily wagers? No way man.