Geno in Georgia to see DD

[connboy77]

The comment was "history." Of course I agree that UCONN's future is brighter at the moment. But based on "history," which was the comment, Tennessee has more titles. Time will tell if UT can turn it around but I wouldn't write them off yet. The new coach will use the "let's bring UT back to what Pat had built" angle in recruiting and it just may work. And I suspect that Pat will have an active role.

If a new coach is not named at the end of this year, I just don't see things getting better for Tennessee, especially if Pat decides to return. Coaching by commitee is just not going to work. No elite recruit is going to commit to an uncertain coaching situation.

 

[JS]

Just curious - did Geno stay last night so he could be the first to meet with her today - beginning of an open contact period started 3/1.

Good thought. It'd be just about impossible to resist, eh?

 

[VAMike23]

If a new coach is not named at the end of this year, I just don't see things getting better for Tennessee, especially if Pat decides to return. Coaching by commitee is just not going to work. No elite recruit is going to commit to an uncertain coaching situation.

I see it as a no-win for UT in the very near term, simply because there are three tiers of coaching in WCBB. Tier 1 contains Pat and Geno. Tier 2 contains a small number of successful big name coaches like Muffett, Kim M, Tara and a few others. Tier 3 contains the up-and-comers like Walsh.

UT's problem is that it's very unlikely any Tier 2 coaches will want to leave their gig and be the first "post Pat" coach in Knoxville. Barring that, they are left with Tier 3 coaches who have no rings and are not yet proven over the long term. One of these could very well bring the lustre back, but it will take some time. (More likely IMO is that the first post-Pat coach will also struggle, and UT will then bring in the coach who will be there in the longer term.)

All of this means that 2013 recruiting is not going to get any shot-in-the-arm. As you said, no elite recruit is going to commit with all this uncertainty. But if the next head coach is indeed a Tier 3 coach (most likely), this is already a huge step down for UT and is being baked into recruits' expectations. Naming one of the current assistants won't help.

Bottom line: With all of the past year's developments, UT recruiting will--for the next 2 years at a minimum--be down somewhat from what they are used to, which is competing for the very best recruits (top 5) who are not already committed. The only way to forestall this would be to somehow land a big coach from the second tier like Tara or Muffett, and I really don't see that happening.

 

[JonB]

I see it as a no-win for UT in the very near term, simply because there are three tiers of coaching in WCBB. Tier 1 contains Pat and Geno. Tier 2 contains a small number of successful big name coaches like Muffett, Kim M, Tara and a few others. Tier 3 contains the up-and-comers like Walsh.

UT's problem is that it's very unlikely any Tier 2 coaches will want to leave their gig and be the first "post Pat" coach in Knoxville. Barring that, they are left with Tier 3 coaches who have no rings and are not yet proven over the long term. One of these could very well bring the lustre back, but it will take some time. (More likely IMO is that the first post-Pat coach will also struggle, and UT will then bring in the coach who will be there in the longer term.)

All of this means that 2013 recruiting is not going to get any shot-in-the-arm. As you said, no elite recruit is going to commit with all this uncertainty. But if the next head coach is indeed a Tier 3 coach (most likely), this is already a huge step down for UT and is being baked into recruits' expectations. Naming one of the current assistants won't help.

Bottom line: With all of the past year's developments, UT recruiting will--for the next 2 years at a minimum--be down somewhat from what they are used to, which is competing for the very best recruits (top 5) who are not already committed. The only way to forestall this would be to somehow land a big coach from the second tier like Tara or Muffett, and I really don't see that happening.

I'm thinking Kelly Jolly Harper, at NC State. (I'm sure BY-ers know who she is!) Maybe bring her in next year as an associate HC or co-HC for one year? That, I think, would resolve most of their recruiting issues as best they can be. (Side note: She would end up having replaced both Kay Yow and PHS.)

 

[meyers7]

I see it as a no-win for UT in the very near term, simply because there are three tiers of coaching in WCBB. Tier 1 contains Pat and Geno. Tier 2 contains a small number of successful big name coaches like Muffett, Kim M, Tara and a few others. Tier 3 contains the up-and-comers like Walsh.

In what tier are the ones who just kinda suck?

 

[doggydaddy]

In what tier are the ones who just kinda suck?

For fans of those programs it's "tears" not "tier".

 

[VAMike23]

In what tier are the ones who just kinda suck?

Yeah I just kind of meant the tiers that mattered for UT as far as coaching possibilities.... there are definitely lower Tiers, which as DD pointed out often (but not always) lead to Tears for their fans

 

[rington]

The comment was "history." Of course I agree that UCONN's future is brighter at the moment. But based on "history," which was the comment, Tennessee has more titles. Time will tell if UT can turn it around but I wouldn't write them off yet. The new coach will use the "let's bring UT back to what Pat had built" angle in recruiting and it just may work. And I suspect that Pat will have an active role.

To scrutinize each stated word, let's say "recent history."
"Time will tell".......I thought the discussion started on the next 4 0r 5 years, and what that might mean to current recruits.......how do you know the philosophy of the new coach? In the games I have watched this year, Pat does not seem to have an active role.

 

[MilfordHusky]

One missing piece:

 

[Enigma64]

One missing piece:

If my memory serves me right, this was taken Nov 2010... I'm also waiting on the completion of this excellent picture.

 

[Frank]

Just curious - did Geno stay last night so he could be the first to meet with her today - beginning of an open contact period started 3/1.

Excellent Point!! He knows she has choices, and good ones. There is more parity in Women's basketball then ever and hence more choices for the best players. I believe this is why DD's class is holding out longer than many in the past....they are more informed abut where their peers are going, and realize there are more good choices out there than in the past. If two or three get together and go to a new school, you just never know.

 

[meyers7]

Yeah I just kind of meant the tiers that mattered for UT as far as coaching possibilities.... there are definitely lower Tiers, which as DD pointed out often (but not always) lead to Tears for their fans

Or Tears for their Fears. Cause everybody wants to rule the world (or WBB world)

 

[Icebear]

Yeah I just kind of meant the tiers that mattered for UT as far as coaching possibilities.... there are definitely lower Tiers, which as DD pointed out often (but not always) lead to Tears for their fans

There are, actually, 241 tiers of coaching in WCBB although some do over lap. The ones that suck are in the bottom71.27634 tiers, plus or minus a dozen or so.

 

[speedoo]

Assuming Geno and Shea are seeing DD and her folks today, I wonder if the name Kaela Davis will come up?

 

[Bestiarius]

The comment was "history." Of course I agree that UCONN's future is brighter at the moment. But based on "history," which was the comment, Tennessee has more titles. Time will tell if UT can turn it around but I wouldn't write them off yet. The new coach will use the "let's bring UT back to what Pat had built" angle in recruiting and it just may work. And I suspect that Pat will have an active role.

Lets compare historical apples to apples. In reality, at this point, the two programs aren’t TN and Uconn. It’s the Pat and Geno show.
It’s difficult to make comparisons because Pat has an eleven year head start on Geno. It might be more meaningful to compare each coach’s first eleven years. During that span, Pat had zero NC’s and Geno had one. Regarding total NCs, Pat has 8 and Geno has 7, but the 11 year head-start looms large in determining who will be judged the greater coach. Geno is winning the average NCs per year battle and has 11 more years to pass Pat’s record.
Once Pat and Geno are retired, and new coaches are in place, the focus will slowly shift to the program rather than the coach. Women’s BB is just too young to base assessments on “the program”.
So where are we right now re TN vs Uconn. I feel Uconn is in a good place. I’m not discounting TNs reputation for being able to recruit well in the past. But, Leno’s “Man on the street” routine is an example of what makes me pause when thinking about TNs future. When asked who performed the electricity experiment with the key on the kite string in a lightning storm, the answer opined was not Ben Franklin, it was “Bill Clinton!” Even more current - many youth know or care who was President before Obama. The focus is on the future folks, not the past. And that is TNs challenge.
Let’s face it, recruits want to play for Pat or Geno. Yes there is local loyalty for TN, but it doesn’t spread very far from Knoxville. Pat’s sphere of influence is much wider, but she won’t be there.
In my opinion, the hard reality is, Pat is a liability to the program. UT’s stated position is that Pat can stay as long as she wants. A laudable attitude but it will be a detriment to the program. At some point, her ability to make a rational decision will be impaired, and the UT will be in a difficult position.
The argument, “let’s bring UT back to what Pat had built” is a dubious strategy. What recruit living outside Tennessee would be swayed by that? I’d compare TN’s situation with UCLAs when Wooden retired. One NC in 35 years and the weather is better in LA. Recruits will choose their school based on what the school can do for them, and at least for the next 4 years at least, Uconn’s star is shining bright.

 

[Sonny44]

I'm thinking Kelly Jolly Harper, at NC State. (I'm sure BY-ers know who she is!) Maybe bring her in next year as an associate HC or co-HC for one year? That, I think, would resolve most of their recruiting issues as best they can be. (Side note: She would end up having replaced both Kay Yow and PHS.)

Associate to whom? Pat must leave IMO; they must turn the corner, start anew, not prolong the agony. She must know that.

 

[JonB]

Associate to whom? Pat must leave IMO; they must turn the corner, start anew, not prolong the agony. She must know that.

Even in a diminished role, she still has something to contribute, I think. I'm suggesting a transition year in which an associate HC takes an ever-increasing role under the guidance of PHS.

This has to be an incredibly difficult situation for all concerned, and anything that can be done to ease the transition should be.

 

[doggydaddy]

Even in a diminished role, she still has something to contribute, I think. I'm suggesting a transition year in which an associate HC takes an ever-increasing role under the guidance of PHS.

This has to be an incredibly difficult situation for all concerned, and anything that can be done to ease the transition should be.

Why would this be different than every other coaching change? This particular job is so tough you need a transition year? If that is the case, they hired the wrong replacement.

 

[MilfordHusky]

If my memory serves me right, this was taken Nov 2010... I'm also waiting on the completion of this excellent picture.

I think it was First Night, October 2010. The group of 6 look so good together.

 

[JonB]

Why would this be different than every other coaching change? This particular job is so tough you need a transition year? If that is the case, they hired the wrong replacement.

The track record of coaches following legends is pretty dismal. And the circumstances of this case are pretty unique. But the bottom line is that PHS has earned the right to go out on her own terms as long as it doesn't hurt the program. (Contrast to Joe Paterno. Setting the Sandusky situation aside, wouldn't PSU have been much better served by a transition year where a new coach, be it O'Brien or whomever, got to take control of the program while still benefiting from the aura of the legend and allowing the legend to take a victory lap through the conference?)

 

[doggydaddy]

The track record of coaches following legends is pretty dismal. And the circumstances of this case are pretty unique. But the bottom line is that PHS has earned the right to go out on her own terms as long as it doesn't hurt the program. (Contrast to Joe Paterno. Setting the Sandusky situation aside, wouldn't PSU have been much better served by a transition year where a new coach, be it O'Brien or whomever, got to take control of the program while still benefiting from the aura of the legend and allowing the legend to take a victory lap through the conference?)

I don't know how you can look at how they appear this year and say it's not hurting the program THIS year. Hanging out at practice, giving advice, running some drills...all sounds good. But if Pat is still there next year with any kind of authority, the new coach will be an afterthought. If Pat still sits on the bench, the camera will focus on her.

Based on how it looks to me (I'm no expert for sure) I can't imagine her staying on helps at all.

 

[JonB]

I don't know how you can look at how they appear this year and say it's not hurting the program THIS year. Hanging out at practice, giving advice, running some drills...all sounds good. But if Pat is still there next year with any kind of authority, the new coach will be an afterthought. If Pat still sits on the bench, the camera will focus on her.

Based on how it looks to me (I'm no expert for sure) I can't imagine her staying on helps at all.

I'm not close to the TN program, so it's not my judgement to make. It is clear that Paterno's hanging on damaged PSU, and if Pat's hanging on has the same effect, you're right, it's a negative. I'm just not sure that would be the case if a clearly identified successor came in for a hand-off year.

 

[Icebear]

I'm not close to the TN program, so it's not my judgement to make. It is clear that Paterno's hanging on damaged PSU, and if Pat's hanging on has the same effect, you're right, it's a negative. I'm just not sure that would be the case if a clearly identified successor came in for a hand-off year.

That is not clear at all. Few in PA would accept that statement. The program had made numerous adjustments to how the program was run since the mid 2000s, including Galen Hall returning to PSU to revamp the offense.

 

[JonB]

That is not clear at all. Few in PA would accept that statement. The program had made numerous adjustments to how the program was run since the mid 2000s, including Galen Hall returning to PSU to revamp the offense.

So, your thesis is that it worked at PSU but can't possibly work at TN?

 

[cabbie191]

Regarding Tennessee's future: 1) I've seen a couple of their games on television and have been saddened to see how quiet Summitt and withdrawn she sometimes appears - I miss her prowling the sidelines, and as someone put it earlier in this thread, the fire in her belly. 2) That being said, what we don't know is what Summitt brings to the table at practice, and when it comes to recruiting. She may be handling these functions quite ably. Reading the Lady Vol board I sense that she is much more engaged than may seem apparent.

Regarding who's the best coach of all time: I know it is a favorite past time of sports fans and commentators to argue these types of things, but good grief, it is after all an unanswerable question! Can't we just come to the conclusion that Pat and Geno have shown they are among the best of the best? - proven not only by their winning percentages and national championships, as well as the utter domination of their respective conferences, but also in the very high graduation rates of their players and the quality of their players as members of their respective communities and as representatives of women's basketball.

 

[easttexastrash]

Regarding Tennessee's future: 1) I've seen a couple of their games on television and have been saddened to see how quiet Summitt and withdrawn she sometimes appears - I miss her prowling the sidelines, and as someone put it earlier in this thread, the fire in her belly. 2) That being said, what we don't know is what Summitt brings to the table at practice, and when it comes to recruiting. She may be handling these functions quite ably. Reading the Lady Vol board I sense that she is much more engaged than may seem apparent.

Regarding who's the best coach of all time: I know it is a favorite past time of sports fans and commentators to argue these types of things, but good grief, it is after all an unanswerable question! Can't we just come to the conclusion that Pat and Geno have shown they are among the best of the best? - proven not only by their winning percentages and national championships, as well as the utter domination of their respective conferences, but also in the very high graduation rates of their players and the quality of their players as members of their respective communities and as representatives of women's basketball.

Well said.

 

[Bestiarius]

Based on how it looks to me (I'm no expert for sure) I can't imagine her staying on helps at all.

It's not like she's a renouned brain surgeon, an airline pilot or a bus driver, where ability to perform one's job would be an important factor. If the TN administration, fans, etc. want to keep her on for whatever reason, that's great, nobody gets hurt except perhaps the players that chose TN without knowing.

 

[doggydaddy]

It's not like she's a renouned brain surgeon, an airline pilot or a bus driver, where ability to perform one's job would be an important factor. If the TN administration, fans, etc. want to keep her on for whatever reason, that's great, nobody gets hurt except perhaps the players that chose TN without knowing.

Hey, whatever they want to do is fine with me. But the discussion was more about how her staying on helps or hurts the new coach.

 

[Icebear]

So, your thesis is that it worked at PSU but can't possibly work at TN?

To the degree that the two situations are vastly different, correct. I see all kinds of signs the Pat is not capable of participating in the type of transition you are speaking of. I have presently in my congregation 9 families dealing with dementia of several different forms. Most have Alzheimer's, two Parkinson's, on old fashioned hardening of the arteries. From what I am seeing Pat's abilities to guide a transition are significantly compromised. One thing JoePA still had was a mind that generally was sharp as a tack. It was his body that failed. Very differnet.

 

[Icebear]

It's not like she's a renouned brain surgeon, an airline pilot or a bus driver, where ability to perform one's job would be an important factor. If the TN administration, fans, etc. want to keep her on for whatever reason, that's great, nobody gets hurt except perhaps the players that chose TN without knowing.

I suggested much earlier in the season that moving/awarding Pat with the status of Coach Emeritus for life would be an excellent choice. That is something that the university needs to choose to do, however, not Pat. I do think, however, that a real coaching search needs to occur and not simply a continuation of the mess and handoff of the program that has not worked this season. Recruits need to know who they will be working with to make a true commitment.