nelsonmuntz
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Danaerys was a wrong step from becoming a seared steak in the last episode. Viserys and Rhaegar do not look that rideable at the moment.
Game of Thrones - Season 5
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Danaerys was a wrong step from becoming a seared steak in the last episode. Viserys and Rhaegar do not look that rideable at the moment.
junglehusky
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Gotta be a warg thing going on with the dragons, so Bran (total guess, non-book reader here).
True, but Fatso's lost control of his own series ending, timing-wise at least. So maybe they'll be tamed relatively sooner rather than later (assuming I am right folks---this isn't spoiler stuff, just speculation). It's gotta happen eventually. I mean, the Game of Thrones is just a distraction from the more traditional fantasy battle with the Others in the North---the Song of Ice and Fire.
The more I think about it, the more I think you're take is going to prove predictive and HBO will clean up Martin's messes. HBO has made me more interested in the story than Martin himself now. I never thought that'd happen, but it has, likely because I can see a light at the end of the tunnel finally. When you start a story in the 90s, and the penultimate book doesn't even have a release date in 2015, that light is very welcome.
P.s. I agree with what you earlier wrote about Martin losing control too. It's not the writing, as you said, because he's a great writer. It's the editing, which has failed to rein in more and more tangential plotlines. That's actually not uncommon in fantasy writing because the genre is basically all serialized novels. Often, when an author blows up based on an incomplete work, he gets too big for an editor to control and the incomplete series tanks a bit. I'd say even J.K. Rowling slipped once due to that phenomena---her 5th book was a tome of teenage angst needing some good scissors to cut down to size, but who was going to tell her?
Your HBO knowledge makes your opinion just as good as mine. I wouldn't give anything away if I thought the later books helped my speculation in any manner. Promise!
Here's my theory---John Snow is not Ned Stark's daughter. He is the bastard son of Rhaegar Targaryean and Ned 's sister (Rhaegar's "abduction" of Ned's sister is what led to Robert and Ned's rebellion). Also, Tyrion isn't a Lannister. He's the bastard son of King Arys Targaryean and Tywin Lannister's wife (this might come only from the books, albeit the early ones, but we know the Mad King "admired" Tywin's wife).
Only Targs can stand heat like Danny has exhibited an ability to do (remember she walked in the flames to birth the dragons and takes scalding hot baths in Episode 1 of Season 1? Rewatched some in prep for this season . . . .). And only Targs ever rode dragons. So . . . We need three Targs for three dragons. We have Danny, and my theory is aimed at finding numbers 2 and 3. John's her nephew through Rhaegar and Tyrion's her hakf-brother through the Mad King.....
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I thought she was impervious to fire?
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I have read the entire series, but I struggled to get through the last two books. I thought FFC was an absolute slog, and I was somewhat relieved just to finish DWD so I could be done with the series for awhile.
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Kind of a misconception. Maybe it's only really spelled out in the books but the reason she isn't burned when her dragon eggs hatched was b/c that witch who killed Drogo used some kind of magic to make Dany literally a mother of dragons
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I don't remember that - but that being said, one huge issue I have is keeping all the characters and stories straight due to all the plots/sub-plots/sub-sub-plots/plots that go nowhere/etc/etc/etc
Hmmm. I don't know if Danny is fire proof, but I think she's certainly fire resistant. She walks through the flames to birth her dragons, and I don't think that's the witch's doing. I can also think of a DWD example I won't reveal, when Danny does better near flames than most humans would . . .
All the witch did was give Danny the clue to figuring out how to hatch the eggs---by using death. The witch saved Dying Drogo as Vegetable Drogo by stealing Danny's unborn baby's life. That was the clue. Someone had to die. Less than happy with her bargain for Vegetable Drogo, Danny decides the witch herself will serve in the next ceremony, and she burns the witch to perform the magic dragon-birthing thingy.
All in all, the witch was not a willing participant . . . .
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Where can you binge those? Not On Demand?
JaYnYcE
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stream sites online. send me a message and I'll send you the links to 2-4.
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August_West
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Almost spoiler-y I believe you are on the money. It's Tyron, john, and Dany who ride the 3 because they are all Targaryens. r+L= J is a pretty much universally acknowledged now, but nobody talks about Tyrion. The give away is his 2 different colored eyes, one being purple, which is tell tale Targaryens.Spartacus said:
I never thought about the eyes. I figure (1) Lord Tywin wouldn't have given up his Hand-ship under King Arys merely because Cersei wasn't married to Rhaegar, (2) a kingly infatuation with his beloved wife might just justify an ambitious man giving up power to hide in a big rock with a name, and (3) Tyrion's been built up for big things. As much as we liked him killing papa, I think Martin will give him a nice little dragon to rescue him from the crime of fratricide.
The John prediction is still only a prediction, but I will never offer up another guess if that one proves wrong. It's been clear since the first book. Honorable Ned gave his dying sister a promise, a promise as yet unrevealed, returned home with a "bastard" baby birthed around that time, and then forbade his wife from ever inquiring into John's mother's identity. And that's the only thing he ever withheld from her.
Yeah, nothing hidden there......Biggest remaining question on that is who is going to make the reveal and when. I'm getting impatient.
August_West
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Well is it still fratricide if Tywin really wasn't his father? There is your out right there. I think Tywin knew that Tyrion was not his son, and that is why he was so horrible to him (we are made to assume that it is Tywin's distaste for Tyrion being a dwarf, but I think it was deeper stuff than that). Also I think Varys knows Tyrion's true bloodline and it explains his unwavering aid to and protection of Tyrion every step of the series.
100% agree on Tywin. It's the real reason why he refused Tyrion Casterly Rock when Tyrion asked to be acknowledged as the rightful heir following his successful defense of King's Landing. Can't have a non-Lannister on the proverbial throne of the Lannisters. I figure the only reason Baby Tyrion wasn't left on a mountainside for the vultures is because of (1) Tywin's love for his wife, who reportedly is the only person Tywin ever actually loved as an individual human being, instead of as an extension of himself, (2) fear of the Mad King's wroth, or (3) concern that killing Tyrion would have somehow helped the secret out and embarrass either him as a cuckold or his wife unfairly as an adulteress (it's possible she was raped by the Arys, which would explain Tywin's continued loyalty).
Also, love your thinking on Varys. Never occurred to me, but it makes sense and could explain a lot about Varys's actions. Keep them coming . . . .
August_West
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Spartacus said:
Well one more at least. It can deepen the motive for Jamie Lannister being a Kingslsyer
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"Also, love your thinking on Varys. Never occurred to me, but it makes sense and could explain a lot about Varys's actions. Keep them coming . . . ."
Or perhaps Varys is his real father (before he became an eunuch). Varys looks to be out 50 and Tyrion about 30-35 so it is possible.
Or perhaps Varys is his real father (before he became an eunuch). Varys looks to be out 50 and Tyrion about 30-35 so it is possible.
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nelsonmuntz
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If Tyrion, Dany and Snow all end up riding Dragons to some kind of Targarean victory, I will be really, really pissed off. That is Lord of the Rings-type stuff where everyone was born into whatever happens and they can't escape their fate. I hope Martin doesn't cop out with such a silly ending.
August_West
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nelsonmuntz said:
I think it happens at some point but it may not be the " end" or to "victory"
Tolkien's story didn't have a hint of predestination in it; it was a classic Catholic story about free will.
I hear all the time from folks who don't read fantasy that they like GoT because it's somehow different than normal fantasy. Younger readers of fantasy will tell you it's a more sophisticated kind of fantasy because it's darker or whatever. Sad to say, no matter how much Martin and his fans might wish it weren't the case, it's just a well-written fantasy series relying on familiar tropes lesser authors developed in the genre Tolkien created.
Unlike Tolkien, his imitators love prophecy and predestination. It's pretty standard fare. And Martin's no different. Ignore his use of prophecy and visions of the future (through various mechanisms in the books and television shows) to your peril. He's not including them to break the mold.
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I think it's definitely a modernized take on fantasy. I have never liked the genre and yet I get into this. There's good and bad within the good and bad. "Good" guys make really terrible decisions. Some of the bad look for a measure of redemption but they can never be fully forgiven. Also I like the sudden chaos of it, with key characters being killed off unexpectedly.
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The Jon Snow theory is a popular one.
As for the ending, I will feel a bit cheated if it ends as Nelson suggests. I agree that the story is at its heart a well-written fantasy series, but what set it apart was the story of political intrigue that overlays it. I want the winner to win because they were more cunning than the rest, not because they team up and have Dragons. I will feel a bit cheated if that's the case.
As for the ending, I will feel a bit cheated if it ends as Nelson suggests. I agree that the story is at its heart a well-written fantasy series, but what set it apart was the story of political intrigue that overlays it. I want the winner to win because they were more cunning than the rest, not because they team up and have Dragons. I will feel a bit cheated if that's the case.
That's what the younger fantasy fans will tell you too when they contrast series like GoT with slightly older series like The Wheel of Time. I disagree. Although that trend is relatively true for fantasy in general, inasmuch as the protagonists are almost always dark or anti-heros now, such protagonists aren't new, just more dominant. Even one of my favorite childhood fantasy books, little more than a D&D role-playing game in novel form, focused on a good guy gone bad who still often did good things.
P.s. I think one of the reasons the books are more appealing to non- fantasy fans is due to the relative absence of some magic system in his world. But even that's not unique to Martin. He's just near one of the ends of the spectrum vis a vis magic (it exists, but isn't used frequently, and the rules behind the magical system aren't developed or dwelled on at all).
I hear you, but I'm telling you to prepare yourself.
Fwiw, I'm not saying there will be three people who win the throne by teaming up with three dragons. That's unlikely. But the series is not called the Game of Thrones, only the first book is, because winning the throne isn't the overarching plotline. The series is called The Song of Ice & Fire---the battle with the Others, which Danny and her two-dragon comrades will wage to save the world or some such thing.
Bit of trivia---the series was supposed to be only 5 books long originally. Martin was going to write about the disruptions to the realm and the Stark family wrought by King Robert's death in the first two or three books. The latter books were then supposed to fast forward to a different starting point so that the Stark kids were older. Because the overarching story was never about the game of thrones; Martin just lost control of his series and couldn't wrap up his own plotlines quickly enough. The story was instead supposed to be about the Stark kids & Danny's fight with the Others. Everything else is just a distraction (for the characters at least, if not us).
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nelsonmuntz
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The biggest different between GOT and regular fantasy are:
1) Magic - magic is a plot killer for people older than 12, and GOT could cut its audience in half if spells start winning conflicts.
2) Good vs. Evil - GOT is fairly amoral about good vs. evil. Other than the minor characters like the Moutain, Kraster, the guys that killed Kraster, the warlocks of Qarth, and a few others, there are not many evil characters. Most of the characters are more complex, and that is what makes the story so interesting. The Lord of the Rings looks juvenile by comparison.
The LotR had a lot of predestination. Everyone was the chosen one and son of whoever. Even when I was a kid reading the books, I knew that the good guys would win, which is why I never finished the series.
By your own admission, you don't know what you're talking about. You're commenting on a genre you don't read and a series you've never finished. And you're contrasting LoTR unfavorably with a GoT series: (1) rife with prophecies about a flaming-sword wielding savoir reborn, Azor of Azahi, who must save the world because you don't like predestination; (2) centered around the offspring and current leaders of ancient families who wear ancient family insignia because you don't like books where everyone is the son of this or that; (3) follows a family whose kids all share the minds with wolves because you don't like magic; and (4) is aimed at millenial-long battle with evil snow creatures, who use human babies to reproduce, because you don't like books with clear lines between good and evil. Makes sense.
The fact is, it's pretty standard fare for the fantasy genre. It just falls within a well-worn subtype. And the only, and I mean only thing which makes GoT more "mature" than LoTR, is all of the boobies Fatso adds for the pimply, fantasy-reading virgins who made the series such a big success it was picked up by HBO.
August_West
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Spartacus has a great take on this stuff.
No magic?
What the heck is the stuff With the lord of light/ melisandre? Shadow baby kills Renly. Pretty much her whole arc with stannis is one feat of black magic after the other.
That woman who kills the horse to save Drogo?
Flaming swords.....
The house of the undying?
Wild fire at the battle of blackwater?
Dead people brought back to life ( lady stone heart? ) wargs? Children of the Forrest? It is ALL magic
No magic?
What the heck is the stuff With the lord of light/ melisandre? Shadow baby kills Renly. Pretty much her whole arc with stannis is one feat of black magic after the other.
That woman who kills the horse to save Drogo?
Flaming swords.....
The house of the undying?
Wild fire at the battle of blackwater?
Dead people brought back to life ( lady stone heart? ) wargs? Children of the Forrest? It is ALL magic
Exactly. It's just not a well-defined magical system where the author lays down the rules and limitations in advance because it's not central to the story. Magic stuff happens when and how Martin wishes it to happen.
In that way, it's very akin to LoTR. Tolkien had a super-powerful wizard, Gandalf, traipsing around his books, who never performed all that much magic if you think about it. And we're never told exactly what he could and couldn't magic. He fought with sword more often than spell.
August_West
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Excalibur said:
Well you may get that. That is why these books and series are so good. It's also why GRRM has written himself into a "mereenese knot "
He has characters like littlefinger who are born into nothing, but play the cunning game better than anyone. You never know what a red herring is with GRRM and what his final goal will be, but some things are just there because they have to be, and I believe the 3 dragons/ 3 riders is the most glaring overall plot point. 20 years, 5 books and millions of words and thousands of characters are all interesting ( mostly) fluff to get to the point where that happens. How it happens and what the end is is anyone's guess.
Waylon & Zoo ---
Before you decide that I am talking out of my arse here---even though I assure you I was once the pimply-faced virgin making Martin a millionaire---I'd recommend another fantasy series, which does everything you say you like about GoT only better (it doesn't have the political intrigue Excalibur likes however). It's called The First Law Series, by Joe Abercrombie. Not only is there little black-and-white morality and minimal amounts of magic, it has the benefit of being finished. It is a well-contained trilogy, and it's hands down a better series. Maybe not an a book-to-book comparison with Martin's early efforts, but without a doubt as an overall series. It also has my two favorite fantasy characters---a mass-murdering barbarian warrior with a conscience, and a man crippled by torture who becomes a malevolent torturer. Great peep, both.
Before you decide that I am talking out of my arse here---even though I assure you I was once the pimply-faced virgin making Martin a millionaire---I'd recommend another fantasy series, which does everything you say you like about GoT only better (it doesn't have the political intrigue Excalibur likes however). It's called The First Law Series, by Joe Abercrombie. Not only is there little black-and-white morality and minimal amounts of magic, it has the benefit of being finished. It is a well-contained trilogy, and it's hands down a better series. Maybe not an a book-to-book comparison with Martin's early efforts, but without a doubt as an overall series. It also has my two favorite fantasy characters---a mass-murdering barbarian warrior with a conscience, and a man crippled by torture who becomes a malevolent torturer. Great peep, both.
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