Game of Thrones - Season 5

[nelsonmuntz]

Aren't Orcs made in a magic factory in Lord of the Rings?

My biggest problems with GoT are 1) the way Renly was killed, and 2) Dondarion coming back to life (along with possibly others).

The problem with magic is that it makes everything else irrelevant. Who cares what everyone's motivations are? All that matters is what the wizard is doing.

Likewise, I have never seen a science fiction movie that uses time travel that doesn't have a major plot hole. It is just not possible to avoid it.

 

[Scalito]

Aren't Orcs made in a magic factory in Lord of the Rings

Nah. You're thinking of a scene from the movie version. The Orcs are made from captured Elves in the very beginning of time by Sauron's master. It's recounted in the Simarilion. Sarumon then enhances the strength of his Orcs by cross-breeding them with goblins or maybe trolls, I forget, the product of which you see in the movie's factory scene.

Tolkein was writing during the time of eugenics, massive technological advances, and two world wars. His world might be a magical word, but don't mistake that for simplicity. It's no mistake that the bad guys in his books manipulate genes and tear down forests to feed industry-like furnace fires.

The problem with magic is that it makes everything else irrelevant. Who cares what everyone's motivations are? All that matters is what the wizard is doing.

To each their own. I won't presume to tell people what they should like. I just think that many of the HBO fans, at most those who like the books, are off when supposing Martin is particularly unique in the genre. He's only a type. And an exceptional writer, of course.

 

[CTGoonie]

@Spartacus I just finished A Dance With Dragons. What is the next best series to that? I also loved the Dark Tower.

 

[Scalito]

@Spartacus I just finished A Dance With Dragons. What is the next best series to that? I also loved the Dark Tower.

You can't go too wrong (I hope) by picking up the First Law Series I mentioned earlier, by Joe Abercrombie, if you like Martin. The first book is called The Blade Itself. I personally probably prefer a series which has just been restarted by Robin Hobb, a rare female author in the genre not named J.K. Rowling (I'm likely in the minority because Abercrombie is one often "hot" new authors). The first series, The Farseer Trilogy, begins with Assassin's Aprrentice.

Both series are well written, although they're more character driven and less epic than Martin's work, and neither is the stereotypical young-orphan-is-destined-to-save-the-world stories. Both will purposefully make you think they're going to go down the archetypal fantasy paths, and then both will surprise you because things don't always work out swingingly for the characters. Also, while there's no need to excuse the beginning books of either series, I enjoyed them both, each series gets progressively better, which should be a really nice treat after reading A Feast for Crows.

P.s. There is a lot of dreck out there. I always do what you did by asking for a recommendation or googling my query before committing to something. It's a genre that includes adult and young adult readers, after all, so you can go seriously wrong if you just pick something up off the shelf.

 

[Scalito]

So, back to she show. Episode 2---thoughts? I was surprised and happy by Jaqen's appearance at the House of White & Black. Not sure if that'll ultimately prove different than the books, but there were significant divergences. Looks like HBO is truly taking some control. Should make it more fun to have some unknowns to anticipate.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

HBO is killing it so far.

The show has improved on the Dany storyline, and one a really good job of showing how badly Danny is screwing the pooch as ruler. She is lost and she is not listening to her advisors.

Overall, the show has done a good job in cutting down on the number of characters from the books. Bringing Jaqen back made sense, instead of introducing us to a whole new crew from the Black/White place. Intersecting Brienne and Sansa also made sense. The show may have the same problem with Brienne that Martin does. She is an interesting character, but they can't seem to figure out what to do with her.

 

[billythekid]

You can't go too wrong (I hope) by picking up the First Law Series I mentioned earlier, by Joe Abercrombie, if you like Martin. The first book is called The Blade Itself. I personally probably prefer a series which has just been restarted by Robin Hobb, a rare female author in the genre not named J.K. Rowling (I'm likely in the minority because Abercrombie is one often "hot" new authors). The first series, The Farseer Trilogy, begins with Assassin's Aprrentice.

Both series are well written, although they're more character driven and less epic than Martin's work, and neither is the stereotypical young-orphan-is-destined-to-save-the-world stories. Both will purposefully make you think they're going to go down the archetypal fantasy paths, and then both will surprise you because things don't always work out swingingly for the characters. Also, while there's no need to excuse the beginning books of either series, I enjoyed them both, each series gets progressively better, which should be a really nice treat after reading A Feast for Crows.

P.s. There is a lot of dreck out there. I always do what you did by asking for a recommendation or googling my query before committing to something. It's a genre that includes adult and young adult readers, after all, so you can go seriously wrong if you just pick something up off the shelf.

I so enjoyed the first two seasons of GOT that I decided to read the books. I hadn't read fantasy since reading LOTR as a kid. I worked my way through all five of the GOT books that summer and have been hooked on the genre since. I recently finished the Farseer Trilogy that you mentioned above and enjoyed it. I recently began her next trilogy, The Liveship Traders. A couple of other series that I'd recommend is The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson and the Gentleman Bastard series by Scott Lynch.

 

[Scalito]

I so enjoyed the first two seasons of GOT that I decided to read the books. I hadn't read fantasy since reading LOTR as a kid. I worked my way through all five of the GOT books that summer and have been hooked on the genre since. I recently finished the Farseer Trilogy that you mentioned above and enjoyed it. I recently began her next trilogy, The Liveship Traders. A couple of other series that I'd recommend is The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson and the Gentleman Bastard series by Scott Lynch.

You did get hooked if you plowed through all those already.

For some reason, I have not been a big fan of Hobb's work outside of the Fitz books. The Liveship Traders is worth reading before the Fool books if you're really committed and have the time, but it's nowhere near as good and it's not a necessary pre-read. I kind of found it a bit of a slog at times (although you do know that there is a character you're familiar with in the book who is basically in disguise and doesn't go by the same name, right?). Just fair warning. It's worth reading, again, just not if you let it stop you from moving on to the Fool books.

Rothfuss pisses me off. He's in danger of becoming another Martin, replete with the sloppy beard and large gut. I downloaded his first book a long time ago based on the rave reviews, but held off from reading it because I promised myself never to start a new author's first series until it was complete. One day I was playing in the Kindle store and saw there were then three books by him, which meant he either finished what I thought was a trilogy or at least had demonstrated timely production. Then I.went to read the third book . . . and realized it was a short-story spun off from the series (classic move by popular but lazy authors looking for cash while they laze about) and he isn't anywhere near ready to publish book 3. .

Your Mistborne recommendation is intriguing. I know Sanderson based on his work in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series. That's the one series that's even more responsible than Martin for my wariness with new series because Jordan died before finishing it. I began the thing on a family vacation in 8th grade, he lost control of the story around book 9,012, died, and Sanderson was picked by his widow to finish it based on his notes and outline. I was in my mid-thirties by the time it was done.

Sanderson did it well though, and I'll always be grateful for that. How would you rank Mistborne? I've had a block on that one because I always worry he simply has Jordan's huge following (The Wheel of Time was hands down the most popular series back in the day. It's online fandom created the template for some of the other fan sites dedicated to lengthy and unfinished series like GoT.).

 

[Scalito]

HBO is killing it so far.

The show has improved on the Dany storyline, and one a really good job of showing how badly Danny is screwing the pooch as ruler. She is lost and she is not listening to her advisors.

Overall, the show has done a good job in cutting down on the number of characters from the books. Bringing Jaqen back made sense, instead of introducing us to a whole new crew from the Black/White place. Intersecting Brienne and Sansa also made sense. The show may have the same problem with Brienne that Martin does. She is an interesting character, but they can't seem to figure out what to do with her.

Agree 100%. We do that so rarely, you and I, I thought I'd say it out loud and give you a like . . . .

 

[ZooCougar]

@Spartacus I just finished A Dance With Dragons. What is the next best series to that? I also loved the Dark Tower.

I liked the new Dune books. Pretty good stuff.

If you like a blend of the Greek Mythology, Homer, Shakespeare, robots, horror and hard sci fi then I would check out Ilium and Olympos by Dan Simmons.

 

[billythekid]

You did get hooked if you plowed through all those already.

For some reason, I have not been a big fan of Hobb's work outside of the Fitz books. The Liveship Traders is worth reading before the Fool books if you're really committed and have the time, but it's nowhere near as good and it's not a necessary pre-read. I kind of found it a bit of a slog at times (although you do know that there is a character you're familiar with in the book who is basically in disguise and doesn't go by the same name, right?). Just fair warning. It's worth reading, again, just not if you let it stop you from moving on to the Fool books.

Rothfuss pisses me off. He's in danger of becoming another Martin, replete with the sloppy beard and large gut. I downloaded his first book a long time ago based on the rave reviews, but held off from reading it because I promised myself never to start a new author's first series until it was complete. One day I was playing in the Kindle store and saw there were then three books by him, which meant he either finished what I thought was a trilogy or at least had demonstrated timely production. Then I.went to read the third book . . . and realized it was a short-story spun off from the series (classic move by popular but lazy authors looking for cash while they laze about) and he isn't anywhere near ready to publish book 3. .

Your Mistborne recommendation is intriguing. I know Sanderson based on his work in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series. That's the one series that's even more responsible than Martin for my wariness with new series because Jordan died before finishing it. I began the thing on a family vacation in 8th grade, he lost control of the story around book 9,012, died, and Sanderson was picked by his widow to finish it based on his notes and outline. I was in my mid-thirties by the time it was done.

Sanderson did it well though, and I'll always be grateful for that. How would you rank Mistborne? I've had a block on that one because I always worry he simply has Jordan's huge following (The Wheel of Time was hands down the most popular series back in the day. It's online fandom created the template for some of the other fan sites dedicated to lengthy and unfinished series like GoT.).

I'm a bit more than halfway through the first of the Liveship Traders books and understand your complaints. It is definitely slower in developing the action than Farseer books did. I enjoy her writing though and will stick it through.

The Mistborn trilogy is interesting. While it contains the typical "boy/girl comes from nowhere to become a great hero" plotline, he creates a very different and unique world. In this world, certain people can ingest certain elements that give them specific powers. Keeping track of what element gives off what effect took me a while to nail down, but I thought it was well done and worthwhile.

One more to check out is the Demon Cycle series by Peter Brett. I've read the first three of the five books in the series and have enjoyed it. My plan is to get back to them after I finish the Liveship Traders.

 

[ZooCougar]

HBO is killing it so far.

The show has improved on the Dany storyline, and one a really good job of showing how badly Danny is screwing the pooch as ruler. She is lost and she is not listening to her advisors.

Overall, the show has done a good job in cutting down on the number of characters from the books. Bringing Jaqen back made sense, instead of introducing us to a whole new crew from the Black/White place. Intersecting Brienne and Sansa also made sense. The show may have the same problem with Brienne that Martin does. She is an interesting character, but they can't seem to figure out what to do with her.

I feel kind of icky because I have grown to like Jamie Lannister so much. Looking forward to that storyline.

 

[SAMCRO]

Liked episode 2 a lot, and agree with Nelson that the series is going down all the right paths so far in regards to "editing" from the book. It's still building and setting up some key storylines.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I do think that Emelia Clarke is the weakest actor/actress among the major characters, and she is having trouble pulling off Dany's inner conflicts as ruler. Instead of a young woman put in a position of authority beyond her experience, she comes across as an idiot. She seems like a more likable version of Joffrey at times, which I don't think is intended. Overall, the show has hit the cover off the ball with its original casting, but in a cast this large, there are bound to be some mistakes.

 

[August_West]

She seems like a more likable version of Joffrey at times, which I don't think is intended. .

I think it actually may be intended. Also, I don't have an issue with her casting, she seems up to the part. One thing to keep in mind with GoT is that unlike LoTR the lines between good and bad are not so distinctively drawn. Dany may not end up being the heroine she has up until this point been portraying. I think the shows this season so far are starting to point that out.


On another note, not really a casting issue but a show handling of a character: While I love the show and their decisions for the most part, they have majorly messed up with Loras Tyrell. He is absolutely useless on the show.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think it actually may be intended. Also, I don't have an issue with her casting, she seems up to the part. One thing to keep in mind with GoT is that unlike LoTR the lines between good and bad are not so distinctively drawn. Dany may not end up being the heroine she has up until this point been portraying. I think the shows this season so far are starting to point that out.


On another note, not really a casting issue but a show handling of a character: While I love the show and their decisions for the most part, they have majorly messed up with Loras Tyrell. He is absolutely useless on the show.

That is my point. Dany is supposed to be more conflicted and layered, and she ends up coming off like an idiot. Maybe that is the writers' fault, but most of the other actors don't have that problem. Even bit players are 3 dimensional. Before this season started, i was rewatching season 4. The scene where Arya and the Hound come across the dying farmer is a fantastic scene. The farmer is one step above an extra, and in 4 minutes of screen time he imparts a lot of emotion and depth. Dany is on the screen for about 20% of each show, and she still seems two dimensional.

I agree on Loras, although Martin loses track of him in the books too. Without Renly, Loras is a very tertiary character.

 

[SubbaBub]

I do think that Emelia Clarke is the weakest actor/actress among the major characters, and she is having trouble pulling off Dany's inner conflicts as ruler. Instead of a young woman put in a position of authority beyond her experience, she comes across as an idiot. She seems like a more likable version of Joffrey at times, which I don't think is intended. Overall, the show has hit the cover off the ball with its original casting, but in a cast this large, there are bound to be some mistakes.

Comes across as someone hired to do a job that is beyond them because of their name or their looks.

She reminds me of the hot bartender that can't make a decent drink. Not that I've ever been to a bar...

So, maybe she is doing it correctly.

 

[Excalibur]

That is my point. Dany is supposed to be more conflicted and layered, and she ends up coming off like an idiot. Maybe that is the writers' fault, but most of the other actors don't have that problem. Even bit players are 3 dimensional. Before this season started, i was rewatching season 4. The scene where Arya and the Hound come across the dying farmer is a fantastic scene. The farmer is one step above an extra, and in 4 minutes of screen time he imparts a lot of emotion and depth. Dany is on the screen for about 20% of each show, and she still seems two dimensional.

I can't tell if the issue is with the character or the actress. She's very wooden in her performance - like she belongs in one of the Star Wars prequels. But the conflicts and layers of Daenerys are demonstrated, even in the books, by the poor decisions that she makes. It's tough to convey that on screen without making her look like an idiot.

 

[Scalito]

I can't tell if the issue is with the character or the actress. She's very wooden in her performance - like she belongs in one of the Star Wars prequels. But the conflicts and layers of Daenerys are demonstrated, even in the books, by the poor decisions that she makes. It's tough to convey that on screen without making her look like an idiot.

She's by far the worst character in the book. If Martin wrote a chapter in the next book that read, in full, "Daenerys slipped, fell, and died," it'd be my favorite chapter in the whole series.

At least on screen we get to see . Or used to, I suppose.

 

[ZooCougar]

The problem with D. is that she hasn't evolved. In the beginning, it worked because she was a bit naive and was thrust into a position of power. Now she is even more powerful and she still appears naive. She's powerful because of dragons, a birthright and an Army. She is just not formidable enough on her own to be believable. Hopefully Tyrion can make her storyline more interesting.

 

[UConnTrumbull]

I thought last nights episode was very good. We got a lot of plot line evolving and a few scenes that will likely become bigger events, eg Jorah Mormont coming back and Qyburns Frankenstein paying us a short visit. I'm really intrigued to see what happens with Sansa back at Winterfell. I'm sure my fellow book readers would agree.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Huge departure from the books is actually being well received on the Intertubes. Ramsey's character had some issues in the prior seasons (and in the books) that were causing fan interest in him to flame out a bit. It is hard for such a freak show to be credible as a leader of the North, as even Roose points out. I don't know where they are going to take this plot line, although given Baelish's history, he will have no problem killing off Ramsey given what he did with Joffrey. With Brienne on her way, you almost feel a little worried for Ramsey. The Roose Bolton character is much, much more interesting in the show than he was in ADWD, and the engagement to Sansa is exactly the kind of thing the Book Roose would have done prior to Martin getting bored with him and making him 2 dimensional in ADWD.

I am a little disappointed that the show didn't go for a little more comedy at the brothel prior to the rendezvous with Mormont.

Natalie Dormer is killing it. She may be in line for an Emmy. Or maybe I can't stop staring at her when she is on screen.

If I was Martin, I might be a bit concerned that at least according to fan sites like towerofthehand, the hardcore book readers seem to be enjoying where the show is deviating from the books. In other words, the HBO writing crew is better than Martin.

If the next book is a big, bloated mess like I expect, sales will suck. Why read martin's version of Westeros when the HBO version is better with fewer plotholes?

 

[ZooCougar]

You're worried for Ramsey? I think Baelish wants the North and the realm he already has.

I really enjoyed the Jon Snow storyline this week. He's already more cutthroat and clever than what little we saw of Ned Stark. I think Stannis was getting excited watching him lop that head off. "Whoever said that didn't have many enemies." Too easy, I'll just humiliate and kill one.

 

[Scalito]

I think Stannis was getting excited watching him lop that head off. "Whoever said that didn't have many enemies." Too easy, I'll just humiliate and kill one.

People shouldn't forget that Lord Janis betrayed Ned Stark and is responsible for Ned losing his head as much as anybody else. John was just handed a convenient excuse for avenging Ned.

I'm very interested in where the storyline is going for Sansa. She just got delivered into the hands of the one person evil enough to rejuvenate Theon's character in fans' eyes after a pretty wicked betrayal. Good times in the offing . . . .

 

[ZooCougar]

People shouldn't forget that Lord Janis betrayed Ned Stark and is responsible for Ned losing his head as much as anybody else. John was just handed a convenient excuse for avenging Ned.

I'm very interested in where the storyline is going for Sansa. She just got delivered into the hands of the one person evil enough to rejuvenate Theon's character in fans' eyes after a pretty wicked betrayal. Good times in the offing . . . .

Totally forgot about the Lod Janis bit.

I am actually really glad that I didn't read the books now.

 

[Fishy]

If the next book is a big, bloated mess like I expect, sales will suck. Why read martin's version of Westeros when the HBO version is better with fewer plotholes?

If the book is a big, bloated mess like you expect, it will sell like it's made of cocaine and unicorn spoof.

The man has a license to print money and if the next GOT book is nothing but medieval fart jokes, it will still sell in the bazillions.

 

[Scalito]

Natalie Dormer is killing it. She may be in line for an Emmy. Or maybe I can't stop staring at her when she is on screen.

Natalie Dormer is by far my favorite piece of eye candy in the whole series. Is there anyone else even in contention for the crown?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Natalie Dormer is by far my favorite piece of eye candy in the whole series. Is there anyone else even in contention for the crown?

With Ygritte gone, no.

 

[coachcap]

Natalie Dormer is by far my favorite piece of eye candy in the whole series. Is there anyone else even in contention for the crown?

The New York rags were doing previews of this season & one of them had photos & bios of the actresses who will be playing the parts of the Sand Snakes. They don't look too shabby. But, Natalie is stunning. I hope that she reprises her part as Moriarty on Elementary also.

 

[August_West]

If the book is a big, bloated mess like you expect, it will sell like it's made of cocaine and unicorn spoof. The man has a license to print money and if the next GOT book is nothing but medieval fart jokes, it will still sell in the bazillions.

That's assuming it ever actually gets finished and put up for sale.