Fudd is down to UCLA and UConn

[nwhoopfan]

...and of course I disagree. When has Cori ever had a player as good as Sabrina? When has she ever had a player as good as Sabally? When has she ever had a trio as good as Sabrina, Sabally and Herbert? Yet Graves was able to take this team to the FF just once in three years (I of course don't count last year). Do you honestly think Close couldn't have matched that number? To me Graves has yet to prove he's a great BB coach. He's proven he's one of CBB great recruiters, and he's been a great representative for WCBB. But a great coach? The jury hasn't even been picked yet.

You didn't really expect Oregon to go to a Final 4 when they were mostly led by Fr. did you? The next year they had the misfortune of running into Notre Dame in the Regional Final, who nobody managed to beat in the Tourney, including UConn. I'm fairly sure they would've waltzed to the Final 4 last year, so that's really unfortunate that opportunity got taken away from them.


Let's just talk about how the 2 coaches have done in the Pac 12. After starting with almost nothing, Graves quickly built Oregon into a 3 time conference champion. Close has never won the league, best she finished was tied for 2nd last year w/ an absolute gift of an unbalanced schedule. Before that 4th place seemed to be about where she finished most seasons.

While Close never had a trio like Oregon's, Canada/Billings/Burke is pretty darn good as well. That it took Burke till her Sr. year to really develop might indicate something.


And then there's what Graves did at Gonzaga, a small school that had zero history before he arrived. Turned them into a perennial Tourney team w/ multiple Sweet 16s and an Elite 8. Vandersloot is the only player from GU that did any more than getting a cup of coffee in the WNBA, so it's not like he was winning only because of overwhelming talent. As far as his recruiting goes, I think he's got a shrewd eye for talent. Some of his recruits that thrived weren't highly ranked when he got them. Hebard I think was somewhere in the 40s and Vandersloot was maybe just barely cracking top 100 lists, if she was ranked at all. Sabally is a bit hard to evaluate because international recruits don't get seen as much by the scouts as players in the U.S.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Caldwell transferred, Drummer was injured and never really got to show what she could do, only Canada had a good career, yet she never learned how to shoot. I would say that class was overrated, but also looking at Jefferson vs Canada will tell you that if Fudd wants to develop then UConn not UCLA would be the place to go.

Billings? She was pretty close to Hebard career wise.

 

[Go/huskies]

Billings? She was pretty close to Hebard career wise.

i live in the Bay Area but I don’t follow the pac 12 like I should, did Billings ever make all pac 1st team? I believe Hebard did.

 

[CBus13]

i live in the Bay Area but I don’t follow the pac 12 like I should, did Billings ever make all pac 1st team? I believe Hebard did.

According to her Bio on UCLA's website. For her senior season.

Was named All-Pac-12 and to the All-Defensive Team by the coaches and media … named to the Pac-12 All-Tournament Team … named to the Kansas City Regional All-NCAA Tournament Team … named an honorable mention All-American by WBCA … named to the WBCA All-Region 5 Team … named to the John R. Wooden Award Watch list (midseason) … named to the Naismith Trophy Watch List (preseason) … named to the Lisa Leslie Award Watch List (preseason, midseason, top 5 finalist) … named to the Wade Trophy Watch List

She also led the Pac-12 in Rebounding her senior seasono 9.5 and most double doubles in the season 17.

Was also All Pac-12 and All-Defensive Team (Pac12) her Junior season.

 

[JordyG]

You didn't really expect Oregon to go to a Final 4 when they were mostly led by Fr. did you? The next year they had the misfortune of running into Notre Dame in the Regional Final, who nobody managed to beat in the Tourney, including UConn. I'm fairly sure they would've waltzed to the Final 4 last year, so that's really unfortunate that opportunity got taken away from them.


Let's just talk about how the 2 coaches have done in the Pac 12. After starting with almost nothing, Graves quickly built Oregon into a 3 time conference champion. Close has never won the league, best she finished was tied for 2nd last year w/ an absolute gift of an unbalanced schedule. Before that 4th place seemed to be about where she finished most seasons.

While Close never had a trio like Oregon's, Canada/Billings/Burke is pretty darn good as well. That it took Burke till her Sr. year to really develop might indicate something.


And then there's what Graves did at Gonzaga, a small school that had zero history before he arrived. Turned them into a perennial Tourney team w/ multiple Sweet 16s and an Elite 8. Vandersloot is the only player from GU that did any more than getting a cup of coffee in the WNBA, so it's not like he was winning only because of overwhelming talent. As far as his recruiting goes, I think he's got a shrewd eye for talent. Some of his recruits that thrived weren't highly ranked when he got them. Hebard I think was somewhere in the 40s and Vandersloot was maybe just barely cracking top 100 lists, if she was ranked at all. Sabally is a bit hard to evaluate because international recruits don't get seen as much by the scouts as players in the U.S.

Close hasn't had near the length of coaching career Kelly has...and when she had the talent she did very well. Again I say Kelly is one of the best recruiters and yes, he has a good eye for talent. Yes, with that talent he's won the Pac 12. But I'm not talking about how talent wins conferences, nor how good his eye is. With the Canada group Close made one E8. With a far superior Sabrina group Graves made 3. Are you saying Close with that group couldn't have done the same? With that group Close couldn't have made one final 4?

Now, I don't really believe that Close is a good a coach as Kelly. If you've read my posts on the BY I've stated many times that I think he's as good as Rueck, although I prefer Rueck. No, my argument is arguably, given the same talent as Kelly has had she would have had the same results; whether Kelly is a great coach is debatable.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Billings didn't shoot w/ Hebard's brutal efficiency, but finished her career w/ 1761 points, 1159 rebounds and 228 blocks. Hebard had 2368 pts/1299 reb/146 blocks. Billings is #10 in UCLA career scoring, #2 in rebounding and #1 in blocks.


And Canada is #2 in scoring, #1 in assists, and #3 in steals. Canada was the Pac 12 career record holder in assists until Ionescu topped her.

To have 2 players like Canada and Billings with their names all over UCLA's top 10 statistical categories like that, and then claim the class really wasn't that good...that just doesn't hold water. Even if the rest of them underachieved, those 2 alone made it a very good class.


edit--Canada is #3 in made FG and #2 in made FTs, Billings is #4 in made FTs

 

[nwhoopfan]

Are you saying Close with that group couldn't have done the same? With that group Close couldn't have made one final 4?

Could Close have made 1 Final 4 w/ the group Graves had? Yes. Would she have won as many games and dominated the Pac 12 the way he did? No.

 

[JordyG]

Maybe so, but that undercuts the argument about Close not having talent while at a UCLA while labeling Graves at underachiever at Oregon.

I never said she didn't have talent in her 9 years. I said she never had talent the level of Sabrina, Hebard, and Sabally.

 

[JordyG]

Billings didn't shoot w/ Hebard's brutal efficiency, but finished her career w/ 1761 points, 1159 rebounds and 228 blocks. Hebard had 2368 pts/1299 reb/146 blocks. Billings is #10 in UCLA career scoring, #2 in rebounding and #1 in blocks.


And Canada is #2 in scoring, #1 in assists, and #3 in steals. Canada was the Pac 12 career record holder in assists until Ionescu topped her.

To have 2 players like Canada and Billings with their names all over UCLA's top 10 statistical categories like that, and then claim the class really wasn't that good...that just doesn't hold water. Even if the rest of them underachieved, those 2 alone made it a very good class.

Again that's not what I said. I did say Cori never had a trio like Kelly had. Don't twist my words.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Again that's not what I said. I did say Cori never had a trio like Kelly had. Don't twist my words.

That wasn't a direct response to you, several people are participating in this conversation. I was highlighting what Billings accomplished.


edit--just for fun Burke finished w/ 1513 points, 657 reb., 237 steals. Again, that was a very good trio at UCLA that were together for 3 years.

 

[WFFL]

Imagine going to UCLA where top recruits are not developed.

DEADDDDD

 

[JordyG]

Could Close have made 1 Final 4 w/ the group Graves had? Yes. Would she have won as many games and dominated the Pac 12 the way he did? No.

...and that's pretty much my argument. But my basic point was Fudd going to UCLA seems an unlikely waste of her talent.

 

[nwhoopfan]

...and that's pretty much my argument. But my basic point was Fudd going to UCLA seems an unlikely waste of her talent.

No argument there. I certainly don't expect her to pick UCLA.

 

[trb123]

I hope she chooses UCONN and is nicknamed Jennifer.

 

[eebmg]

...and that's pretty much my argument. But my basic point was Fudd going to UCLA seems an unlikely waste of her talent.

Yes, keep on point. Keep that message clear.

 

[DefenseBB]

Note, I did say "at best". Give Cori the talent that Kelly has had and arguably she'd have the same result: Very talented teams that were top three ranked but didn't win anything to this point.

Wait what? Kelly IS A SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER COACH THAN CORI. Look at his career (all his HC programs)and how he took a loser program at UO and made them a national contender. Recruiting is probably #1 criteria of the holy trinity of teaching, game coaching and recruiting. Cori inherited a good squad at UCLA and has at best treaded water. She seems like a nice person, fairly astute but not an elite coach by any stretch of the imagination and arguably top 5 in the PAC12 with Adia nipping her heels!

 

[Dove]

If she came to UConn it would forever be...wabbit season.

 

[the Q]

If she came to UConn it would forever be...wabbit season.

She might never lose a game, like EDD had she had actually stayed (not saying anything else about her choice, just what she possibly gave up. For her, she made a choice for other reasons).

 

[EdSaid]

Do they have chocolate marshmallow ice at the dairy barn?

 

[nwhoopfan]

I've been waiting for you to jump in @DefenseBB . Took you long enough!

 

[Adios]

She has UCLA and UConn as the 2 finalists in memory of Gianna Bryant. Gianna wanted to go to UConn.

You're welcome.

 

[willtalk]

Going to a school purely for development is not as important as it once was. The elite players have lived basketball for most of their lives. They all have personal trainers. There really is not that much upside to develop except for post players who develop later that others. Exposure does play a factor in choosing a program, but generally there are plenty of schools that have good coaches and programs that wills serve the purpose of preparing players for a professional career. Team chemistry and a good relationship with the coach is really important. Often players have been focusing on basketball for so long that they don't really want to commit to an intensive program like Geno runs. Basically who knows what criteria each player values.

Being that UCLA is in the final two, it must mean that either the campus or liking the coach is playing a major factor.

 

[Drumguy]

One thing I’ve noticed, though in my many trips to SoCal is a bit of self consciousness about earthquakes. In a trip to the SF area two years ago I slept, I think, through a relatively minor quake of about 4.7 although I woke up at about the time it hit, so maybe that’s why I woke. My son has been through several quakes and a place he has with another couple in Malibu (very close to Van Halen’s place) escaped the Malibu fire two years ago literally by a wind shift changing direction 150 yards away. My cousin, a retired Berkeley prof lost her Oaklanf house to a massive wildfire several years ago.

I go to the Bay area usually every 2 months (not during covid though) and I've never felt an earthquake! My kids (one in Sunnyvale and one in Napa) are dealing with the fires and smoke and my daughter in Napa had to evacuate. she has friends who lost their houses and she was out of work for 2 weeks (the fire stopped next to her winery so they have just reopened (Brasswoods)).

 

[cohenzone]

I go to the Bay area usually every 2 months (not during covid though) and I've never felt an earthquake! My kids (one in Sunnyvale and one in Napa) are dealing with the fires and smoke and my daughter in Napa had to evacuate. she has friends who lost their houses and she was out of work for 2 weeks (the fire stopped next to her winery so they have just reopened (Brasswoods)).

As I say to my son in LA, if a Martian were to visit CA, they would say that life as they know it can’t survive on this planet. But I’d still move there if housing costs wouldn’t bankrupt me.

 

[cohenzone]

Going to a school purely for development is not as important as it once was. The elite players have lived basketball for most of their lives. They all have personal trainers. There really is not that much upside to develop except for post players who develop later that others. Exposure does play a factor in choosing a program, but generally there are plenty of schools that have good coaches and programs that wills serve the purpose of preparing players for a professional career. Team chemistry and a good relationship with the coach is really important. Often players have been focusing on basketball for so long that they don't really want to commit to an intensive program like Geno runs. Basically who knows what criteria each player values.

Being that UCLA is in the final two, it must mean that either the campus or liking the coach is playing a major factor.

Obviously great players succeed at most places and become good pros. It just seems that Geno generally finds a way to refine the ability in ways that most coaches just don’t. One thing I’d say right now, if I’m an elite scorer and see how Anna and apparently Paige and Niki find open shooters, I’d be drooling to play with them.