Frustrated By Quality of Officiating

[RSHERMVIKES]

I posted this on the ND vs UCONN game thread but it applies here also:

I've said many times that WBB, both college and the WNBA have the worst refs of any college sport!
In the UCONN vs ND semi finals of the 2018 Final Four the chosen referees were, Jason Jones, Michael McConnell, and Karen Preato! WHO??????????
You would think that the Final Four would use the most experienced refs available. Where were: Dee Kantner, Lisa Mattingly, Bryan Enterline, Eric Brewton, Tom Danaher, Maj Forsberg, Cameron Inouye, Denise Brooks, or Tina Napier, among the most veteran officials! Referees that have worked the biggest games, that are familiar with the 2 teams and worked games going down to the last second! ND went to the line 23 times to UCONN's 6, if the veteran officials were working the game would the difference in the number of free throws have been different? Both teams got burned by bad ref calls! But UCONN got hurt worse by having 3 of their best players called for 4 fouls each, Gabby Williams, Kia Nurse, & Katie Lou Samuelson, which certainly affected their defensive style of play late in the game!
I think the inexperience of the chosen referees had something to do with the outcome!

 

[ScarlettB]

Back to the officials I do find it hard to understand how a moving pick is never called and is a constant in the woman's game.

That is my sister's biggest complaint. It is almost never called. Let's face it, the refs are human, so of course they will miss some calls, but they also seem to have their biases. As a long suffering RU fan, we have had to contend with some calls over the years that have really seemed to favor our opponent - especially when it was Tennessee or with certain officials (Tina Napier and clockgate anyone?). I have also felt that many of the refs call less fouls on both ND and UConn than whoever their opponent was over the years. Maybe they actually commit less fouls, maybe they don't, but the refs seem more inclined to give certain teams and players the benefit of the doubt IMO. They also call more touch fouls on the guards than over the back on the bigs. I wouldn't have called the technical on a player for just slapping the floor - as long as she didn't also say something derogatory to the official, but I have seen technicals called on players for how they bounce the ball after a call they don't like, so again, it depends on who the ref is. L'ville should be glad they never called a technical on Jeff for being out of the coaches box, which he was constantly. They called McCallie for it in the Duke / UConn game.

 

[Irishfan]

That is my sister's biggest complaint. It is almost never called. Let's face it, the refs are human, so of course they will miss some calls, but they also seem to have their biases. As a long suffering RU fan, we have had to contend with some calls over the years that have really seemed to favor our opponent - especially when it was Tennessee or with certain officials (Tina Napier and clockgate anyone?). I have also felt that many of the refs call less fouls on both ND and UConn than whoever their opponent was over the years. Maybe they actually commit less fouls, maybe they don't, but the refs seem more inclined to give certain teams and players the benefit of the doubt IMO. They also call more touch fouls on the guards than over the back on the bigs. I wouldn't have called the technical on a player for just slapping the floor - as long as she didn't also say something derogatory to the official, but I have seen technicals called on players for how they bounce the ball after a call they don't like, so again, it depends on who the ref is. L'ville should be glad they never called a technical on Jeff for being out of the coaches box, which he was constantly. They called McCallie for it in the Duke / UConn game.

I don’t think anyone will deny that the top Women’s College Basketball teams tend to get favorable treatment from the refs. It’s been that way for years, and will probably stay that way for many more. It’s good for the sport for the top teams to make it into the high profile games. The key is to become one of those “high profile” teams. Uconn has been there for years, prior to that it was tennessee. ND is getting there. Just look at the stats, how many teams had fewer fouls per game called against them than Uconn? Probably none, or at least no major conference teams.

 

[Orangutan]

1 comment on officiating:

Teams are not automatically entitled to an equal number of free throws. 23 foul shots to 6 is not in itself indicative of bad or biased refereeing. As has been noted by many, ND was more aggressive off the dribble and drives are typically more likely to result in free throws than jump shots.

If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But citing the "23 to 6" as though that stat alone proves anything is strange to me.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I don’t think anyone will deny that the top Women’s College Basketball teams tend to get favorable treatment from the refs. It’s been that way for years, and will probably stay that way for many more. It’s good for the sport for the top teams to make it into the high profile games. The key is to become one of those “high profile” teams. Uconn has been there for years, prior to that it was tennessee. ND is getting there. Just look at the stats, how many teams had fewer fouls per game called against them than Uconn? Probably none, or at least no major conference teams.

Geno teaches players to play defense without fouling. He says only bad players commit fouls. At least at UConn, there is a conscious effort not to foul. Contrast that with other coaches who teach overly aggressive defense, figuring that refs can’t call a foul on every play. I’d put Tennessee and Rutgers in those categories in the past.

 

[bballnut90]

Notre Dame was far more aggressive attacking the basket than either UCONN or Mississippi State. That’s why they got to the line more.

 

[MilfordHusky]

1 comment on officiating:

Teams are not automatically entitled to an equal number of free throws. 23 foul shots to 6 is not in itself indicative of bad or biased refereeing. As has been noted by many, ND was more aggressive off the dribble and drives are typically more likely to result in free throws than jump shots.

If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But citing the "23 to 6" as though that stat alone proves anything is strange to me.

I agree that 23-6 proves little to nothing. However, 21 FTAs in the second half compared to 2 in the first half suggests something. Some of it was more aggressive offense, but I really think that the refs changed in the 4th quarter. Major contact was allowed in the first 3 quarters, but not in the 4th.

I don’t know if you’be been on the board long enough, but starting in the 2011 Final Four and running for 3-4 years, those of us who are UConn fans thought that ND’s “flip and flop” was an absolute joke. Novosel was perhaps the worst perpetrator. In this year’s game, the ND players were looking to score. A few years ago, ND players drove the lane, threw themselves to the ground, and tossed the ball into the air. Often they got the foul call. It made a mockery of the game, in my opinion. So anything that happened this year is viewed in the context of that history.

 

[Orangutan]

The more times I watch the more William/Mabrey play, the more I think Mabrey made clean contact on the ball before colliding with William. In real time (and in the game thread), I thought it was an obvious foul so I totally understand that perspective.

I wish I could get a decent screenshot of the replay. This is the best I can do.

Per Rule 10, Section 2 of the 2018 & 2019 NCAA Women's Basketball rules: "Contact that is incidental to an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact that results when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movement, should be permitted even though the contact may be severe."

 

[Irishfan]

Geno teaches players to play defense without fouling. He says only bad players commit fouls. At least at UConn, there is a conscious effort not to foul. Contrast that with other coaches who teach overly aggressive defense, figuring that refs can’t call a foul on every play. I’d put Tennessee and Rutgers in those categories in the past.

So are you saying that ND getting to the free throw line more than Uconn wasn’t a sign that the refs were playing favorites?

 

[MilfordHusky]

So are you saying that ND getting to the free throw line more than Uconn wasn’t a sign that the refs were playing favorites?

I think there may have been multiple factors involved.

I think the refs played a role in determining the outcome of all 3 games. I would hope that the incompetence would balance out, but in my mind, it didn’t.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I received a survey form from the NCAA asking me to comment on the tournament. Most of it focused on the venue and related events, but I expressed my opinion that the officiating was horrible and likely impacted the outcome of all three games. My honest opinion, as unbiased as I can be.

 

[Irishfan]

I think there may have been multiple factors involved.

I think the refs played a role in determining the outcome of all 3 games. I would hope that the incompetence would balance out, but in my mind, it didn’t.

Just to confirm, when Uconn gets fewer fouls called it’s because they play disciplined basketball. When the other team gets fewer fouls called it’s because the refs are incompetent.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Just to confirm, when Uconn gets fewer fouls called it’s because they play disciplined basketball. When the other team gets fewer fouls called it’s because the refs are incompetent.

No, that’s not what I’m saying. UConn tried to play disciplined defense. They don’t always succeed. You probably know ND better. Have you heard Muffet harp on playing defense without fouling? It’s a legit question, and I don’t know the answer. If you listen to Geno regularly, you know it’s a focus for him.

 

[Irishfan]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. UConn tried to play disciplined defense. They don’t always succeed. You probably know ND better. Have you heard Muffet harp on playing defense without fouling? It’s a legit question, and I don’t know the answer. If you listen to Geno regularly, you know it’s a focus for him.

When the team got down to seven players, it was don’t foul on offense or defense.

 

[MilfordHusky]

When the team got down to seven players, it was don’t foul on offense or defense.

Probably true this year. In general, what does Muffet teach or say about fouling?

 

[Undercovervol]

This is freaking ridiculous to call out refs. Do yall not recognize how well these games were played this year? This was easily the greatest final four in WCBB history, and for yall to not recognize the level of basketball that was played, is truly depressing. Do yall really want a game to end at the foul line? Ridiculous! That Teiara Mcowan foul was barely a foul if at all, and I applaud the ref for not making that call. There is a lot of contact in all these games, and not every call will be made, particularly at the end. Do you hear Geno complaining about the refs after the game? NO! So you shouldn't either! It's frankly pathetic that refs are being blamed.

 

[MilfordHusky]

This is freaking ridiculous to call out refs. Do yall not recognize how well these games were played this year? This was easily the greatest final four in WCBB history, and for yall to not recognize the level of basketball that was played, is truly depressing. Do yall really want a game to end at the foul line? Ridiculous! That Teiara Mcowan foul was barely a foul if at all, and I applaud the ref for not making that call. There is a lot of contact in all these games, and not every call will be made, particularly at the end. Do you hear Geno complaining about the refs after the game? NO! So you shouldn't either! It's frankly pathetic that refs are being blamed.

The games were very exciting for spectators, but I thought the players were way better than the officials. In overtime games and last-second wins, there is a high probability that officiating had an impact on who won. I agree that Friday was probably the best night in the history of WCBB, but the officiating was exposed as poor.

 

[HoopsFan21]

1 comment on officiating:

Teams are not automatically entitled to an equal number of free throws. 23 foul shots to 6 is not in itself indicative of bad or biased refereeing. As has been noted by many, ND was more aggressive off the dribble and drives are typically more likely to result in free throws than jump shots.

If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But citing the "23 to 6" as though that stat alone proves anything is strange to me.

I agree with you. Coach McGraw doesn’t agree with us, however.

 

[wallman]

1 comment on officiating:

Teams are not automatically entitled to an equal number of free throws. 23 foul shots to 6 is not in itself indicative of bad or biased refereeing. As has been noted by many, ND was more aggressive off the dribble and drives are typically more likely to result in free throws than jump shots.

If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But citing the "23 to 6" as though that stat alone proves anything is strange to me.

I had a little giggle at your post. Why, because of course you don't think there was anything wrong, you are ND.

The foul inequity is a problem. It is a problem when the same calls are not being made against both teams, it is called inconsistency and the womens game deserves some kind of consistency in the final four of the NCAAs.

I enjoyed the close games and the excitement but I can also step back and realize that something was amiss. It was not only in this game but all the games. Apart from inconsistency, some of the calls were blatantly against the rules. You cannot swallow your whistle for one call and not another, thats not how it works. As far as Uconn is concerned, they were called for fouls that didn't exist and they are a team that tries all season not to foul by playing defense the right way. ND don't play D very well and yet they were allowed to get away with it by the refs. The same thing happened with McCowan. 1 foul the whole game is just flat out not what happened. Then the blatant foul by Mabrey just should never have been ignored by the refs.

I also feel that the constant feel sorry for me attitude by McGraw had its affect not only on the refs but also on the media. I ask you, what is worse for the game, a team that has won and played the game the right way or a coach that constantly pushes the woe is me card, every time she is interviewed. Every team has its adversities and most play with injuries and small rotations but most don't whine about it.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I had a little giggle at your post. Why, because of course you don't think there was anything wrong, you are ND.

The foul inequity is a problem. It is a problem when the same calls are not being made against both teams, it is called inconsistency and the womens game deserves some kind of consistency in the final four of the NCAAs.

I enjoyed the close games and the excitement but I can also step back and realize that something was amiss. It was not only in this game but all the games. Apart from inconsistency, some of the calls were blatantly against the rules. You cannot swallow your whistle for one call and not another, thats not how it works. As far as Uconn is concerned, they were called for fouls that didn't exist and they are a team that tries all season not to foul by playing defense the right way. ND don't play D very well and yet they were allowed to get away with it by the refs. The same thing happened with McCowan. 1 foul the whole game is just flat out not what happened. Then the blatant foul by Mabrey just should never have been ignored by the refs.

I also feel that the constant feel sorry for me attitude by McGraw had its affect not only on the refs but also on the media. I ask you, what is worse for the game, a team that has won and played the game the right way or a coach that constantly pushes the woe is me card, every time she is interviewed. Every team has its adversities and most play with injuries and small rotations but most don't whine about it.

Thank you for your objective and articulate post!!

 

[Orangutan]

I had a little giggle at your post. Why, because of course you don't think there was anything wrong, you are ND.

Where did I say that I didn't think anything was wrong? I was speaking specifically to the idea of simply comparing free throw totals as a way of evaluating the objectivity (or lack thereof) of officials. As I said, if you feel wrong calls were made, I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

As evidenced by your comments regarding McGraw, you have your mind made up with regards to ND.

 

[Orangutan]

Thank you for your objective and articulate post!!

UConn plays "the right way" and Muffet "constantly pushes the woe is me card". Quite the objectivity there.

 

[wallman]

Where did I say that I didn't think anything was wrong? I was speaking specifically to the idea of simply comparing free throw totals as a way of evaluating the objectivity (or lack thereof) of officials. As I said, if you feel wrong calls were made, I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

As evidenced by your comments regarding McGraw, you have your mind made up with regards to ND.

You tried to make the argument that a foul count wasn't necessarily a problem. We aren't talking about any foul count, we are talking about the game between Uconn and ND, so this post is meaningless but your other one was clearly relative to the conversation about this game or why post it.

Then to try and read my mind and say and use the well you are against ND card, is just like what your coach did about poor poor ND!

 

[wallman]

UConn plays "the right way" and Muffet "constantly pushes the woe is me card". Quite the objectivity there.

This year she pushed that card, on other occasions it was that "other player". So she does use different approaches but she definitely has worn out the hospitality of a lot of college coaches.

 

[Orangutan]

Then to try and read my mind and say and use the well you are against ND card, is just like what your coach did about poor poor ND!

I don't have to read your mind. It's there plain as day from the tone of your post. You don't like McGraw and it colors the way you view the calls in that game. That's fine. Just be honest with yourself.

 

[wallman]

I don't have to read your mind. It's there plain as day from the tone of your post. You don't like McGraw and it colors the way you view the calls in that game. That's fine. Just be honest with yourself.

You are the one with the bias. The fact that you ignored what I said about the reffing of the other games proves it. You don't like that I call your coach out for playing the "woe is me card" in the media, because she is your coach.

BTW I though Walz was wrong for responding to McGraws petty comment about "that other player" but you missed that one huh. I didn't think he was wrong for calling her out but how he did it. But then she is your coach right.

 

[bbsamjj]

The refs in WCBB are a frustration for everyone. I don't think they were any worse this weekend than usual, you just had three unusually close games. Also, the refs calling games differently at the end compared to the beginning is not a phenomenon unique to women's basketball.

The idea though that the refs wanted ND to win and were pushing a narrative is a bit laughable to me. First off, if you're an ESPN executive, you're rooting for the UConn/Miss St rematch because you've been playing Morgan William's shot for the past 365 days and the "revenge" narrative is catnip.

Second, ND was upset in the past two tournaments as a #1 seed by Stanford by a combined 7pts--one would think the refs could have "fixed' it for them if there was a pro ND bias.

Third, had Miss St not left Mabrey open for a wide open 3 when up 5, and had McCowan not missed a wide open layup when the game was tied (in addition to their poor FT Shooting overall), or if Arike doesn't hit 2 miracle shots in a row, the result is likely very different. Or if Nurse/Dangerfield don't have unusually poor shooting days, etc...

 

[wallman]

There definitely needs to be an upgrade in reffing. However, I don't think I have seen 3 games as bad. Usually there is a game or call here and there.

 

[Orangutan]

You are the one with the bias. The fact that you ignored what I said about the reffing of the other games proves it. You don't like that I call your coach out for playing the "woe is me card" in the media, because she is your coach.

Of course, I'm biased. Never said I wasn't. Me being biased doesn't preclude you from being biased, too.

What would you like me to say about the reffing of other games? There were missed calls in all the games. It looks to me like McCowan clobbered Hines-Allen in the ending sequence of Miss St.-Louisville. Upon further review, I think Mabrey's play on William was not a foul. But they did miss a foul by Shepard on McCowan on the possession immediately after Mabrey's 3. That had a big impact because McCowan was called for a foul going for the loose ball and picked up her 4th foul. Should have been on the line instead and if she makes both it's a two-possession game again.

I think you can point to many discrete instances of missed calls in all of the Final Four games. I just resist the idea the because ND got more free throws than UConn the refereeing was biased QED. Maybe that's a bit of a strawman but I feel like I've seen posters (in other threads as well as this one) implying that.

Frankly, I think the refereeing was incompetent but no more incompetent than usual by WCBB standards. This time it may have happened to favor ND. So it goes. I'm obviously not mad about it because my team won. That's usually how these things work.

 

[wallman]

Of course, I'm biased. Never said I wasn't. Me being biased doesn't preclude you from being biased, too.

What would you like me to say about the reffing of other games? There were missed calls in all the games. It looks to me like McCowan clobbered Hines-Allen in the ending sequence of Miss St.-Louisville. Upon further review, I think Mabrey's play on William was not a foul. But they did miss a foul by Shepard on McCowan on the possession immediately after Mabrey's 3. That had a big impact because McCowan was called for a foul going for the loose ball and picked up her 4th foul. Should have been on the line instead and if she makes both it's a two-possession game again.

I think you can point to many discrete instances of missed calls in all of the Final Four games. I just resist the idea the because there ND got more free throws than UConn the refereeing was biased QED. Maybe that's a bit of a strawman but I feel like I've seen posters (in other threads as well as this one) implying that.

Frankly, I think the refereeing was incompetent but no more incompetent than usual by WCBB standards. This time it may have happened to favor ND. So it goes. I'm obviously not mad about it because my team won. That's usually how these things work.

Are you backtracking? Or you just don't like that I posted out the discrepancies of your team SMH

FYI I was court side and the Mabrey foul was blatant and she laughed after as she got away with it.