Frustrated By Quality of Officiating

[Orangutan]

I had a little giggle at your post. Why, because of course you don't think there was anything wrong, you are ND.

Where did I say that I didn't think anything was wrong? I was speaking specifically to the idea of simply comparing free throw totals as a way of evaluating the objectivity (or lack thereof) of officials. As I said, if you feel wrong calls were made, I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

As evidenced by your comments regarding McGraw, you have your mind made up with regards to ND.

 

[Orangutan]

Thank you for your objective and articulate post!!

UConn plays "the right way" and Muffet "constantly pushes the woe is me card". Quite the objectivity there.

 

[wallman]

Where did I say that I didn't think anything was wrong? I was speaking specifically to the idea of simply comparing free throw totals as a way of evaluating the objectivity (or lack thereof) of officials. As I said, if you feel wrong calls were made, I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

As evidenced by your comments regarding McGraw, you have your mind made up with regards to ND.

You tried to make the argument that a foul count wasn't necessarily a problem. We aren't talking about any foul count, we are talking about the game between Uconn and ND, so this post is meaningless but your other one was clearly relative to the conversation about this game or why post it.

Then to try and read my mind and say and use the well you are against ND card, is just like what your coach did about poor poor ND!

 

[wallman]

UConn plays "the right way" and Muffet "constantly pushes the woe is me card". Quite the objectivity there.

This year she pushed that card, on other occasions it was that "other player". So she does use different approaches but she definitely has worn out the hospitality of a lot of college coaches.

 

[Orangutan]

Then to try and read my mind and say and use the well you are against ND card, is just like what your coach did about poor poor ND!

I don't have to read your mind. It's there plain as day from the tone of your post. You don't like McGraw and it colors the way you view the calls in that game. That's fine. Just be honest with yourself.

 

[wallman]

I don't have to read your mind. It's there plain as day from the tone of your post. You don't like McGraw and it colors the way you view the calls in that game. That's fine. Just be honest with yourself.

You are the one with the bias. The fact that you ignored what I said about the reffing of the other games proves it. You don't like that I call your coach out for playing the "woe is me card" in the media, because she is your coach.

BTW I though Walz was wrong for responding to McGraws petty comment about "that other player" but you missed that one huh. I didn't think he was wrong for calling her out but how he did it. But then she is your coach right.

 

[bbsamjj]

The refs in WCBB are a frustration for everyone. I don't think they were any worse this weekend than usual, you just had three unusually close games. Also, the refs calling games differently at the end compared to the beginning is not a phenomenon unique to women's basketball.

The idea though that the refs wanted ND to win and were pushing a narrative is a bit laughable to me. First off, if you're an ESPN executive, you're rooting for the UConn/Miss St rematch because you've been playing Morgan William's shot for the past 365 days and the "revenge" narrative is catnip.

Second, ND was upset in the past two tournaments as a #1 seed by Stanford by a combined 7pts--one would think the refs could have "fixed' it for them if there was a pro ND bias.

Third, had Miss St not left Mabrey open for a wide open 3 when up 5, and had McCowan not missed a wide open layup when the game was tied (in addition to their poor FT Shooting overall), or if Arike doesn't hit 2 miracle shots in a row, the result is likely very different. Or if Nurse/Dangerfield don't have unusually poor shooting days, etc...

 

[wallman]

There definitely needs to be an upgrade in reffing. However, I don't think I have seen 3 games as bad. Usually there is a game or call here and there.

 

[Orangutan]

You are the one with the bias. The fact that you ignored what I said about the reffing of the other games proves it. You don't like that I call your coach out for playing the "woe is me card" in the media, because she is your coach.

Of course, I'm biased. Never said I wasn't. Me being biased doesn't preclude you from being biased, too.

What would you like me to say about the reffing of other games? There were missed calls in all the games. It looks to me like McCowan clobbered Hines-Allen in the ending sequence of Miss St.-Louisville. Upon further review, I think Mabrey's play on William was not a foul. But they did miss a foul by Shepard on McCowan on the possession immediately after Mabrey's 3. That had a big impact because McCowan was called for a foul going for the loose ball and picked up her 4th foul. Should have been on the line instead and if she makes both it's a two-possession game again.

I think you can point to many discrete instances of missed calls in all of the Final Four games. I just resist the idea the because ND got more free throws than UConn the refereeing was biased QED. Maybe that's a bit of a strawman but I feel like I've seen posters (in other threads as well as this one) implying that.

Frankly, I think the refereeing was incompetent but no more incompetent than usual by WCBB standards. This time it may have happened to favor ND. So it goes. I'm obviously not mad about it because my team won. That's usually how these things work.

 

[wallman]

Of course, I'm biased. Never said I wasn't. Me being biased doesn't preclude you from being biased, too.

What would you like me to say about the reffing of other games? There were missed calls in all the games. It looks to me like McCowan clobbered Hines-Allen in the ending sequence of Miss St.-Louisville. Upon further review, I think Mabrey's play on William was not a foul. But they did miss a foul by Shepard on McCowan on the possession immediately after Mabrey's 3. That had a big impact because McCowan was called for a foul going for the loose ball and picked up her 4th foul. Should have been on the line instead and if she makes both it's a two-possession game again.

I think you can point to many discrete instances of missed calls in all of the Final Four games. I just resist the idea the because there ND got more free throws than UConn the refereeing was biased QED. Maybe that's a bit of a strawman but I feel like I've seen posters (in other threads as well as this one) implying that.

Frankly, I think the refereeing was incompetent but no more incompetent than usual by WCBB standards. This time it may have happened to favor ND. So it goes. I'm obviously not mad about it because my team won. That's usually how these things work.

Are you backtracking? Or you just don't like that I posted out the discrepancies of your team SMH

FYI I was court side and the Mabrey foul was blatant and she laughed after as she got away with it.

 

[Orangutan]

Are you backtracking? Or you just don't like that I posted out the discrepancies of your team SMH

I'm trying to clarify my thoughts.

I think they are consistent with the two points I was trying to make (and apparently failing) in my first post in this thread.

1) A free-throw discrepancy does not inherently signal biased refereeing
2) I believe there were many bad calls made/calls missed (which is what I meant by "If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion")

 

[wallman]

I'm trying to clarify my thoughts. I think they are consistent with the two points I was trying to make (and apparently failing). 1) A free-throw discrepancy does not inherently signal biased refereeing; 2)I believe there were many bad calls made/calls missed (which is what I meant by "If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion")

I know I am entitled to my opinion, I don't need your permission.

 

[Orangutan]

I know I am entitled to my opinion, I don't need your permission.

....?

I was simply quoting my earlier post, which was not directed at you (or anyone) specifically.

 

[wallman]

....?

I was simply quoting my earlier post, which was not directed at you (or anyone) specifically.

When you quote my post you are directing it at me. When you a ND fan says I am biased and have a tone you are "coming at me bro". I will continue to give my opinion without your permission

 

[Orangutan]

When you quote my post you are directing it at me. When you a ND fan says I am biased and have a tone you are "coming at me bro". I will continue to give my opinion without your permission

This statement: "If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion" was from my original post in this thread, which did not quote you or anyone else

 

[wallman]

This statement: "If you feel that individual calls were wrong, you're certainly entitled to that opinion" was from my original post in this thread, which did not quote you or anyone else

And you quoted me in your last post, so what s your point. You didn't like what I had to say and called me biased and having a tone. Funny considering we are talking about your team and you are trying to say that I have a tone, hit a nerve much.

 

[Orangutan]

And you quoted me in your last post, so what s your point. You didn't like what I had to say and called me biased and having a tone. Funny considering we are talking about your team and you are trying to say that I have a tone, hit a nerve much.

I didn't say you "had a tone". I was referring to the "tone" of your post in a literary sense.

This whole exchange is now just one miscommunication after another to the point I'm embarrassed. If we hadn't been quoting each other, I would have deleted all my posts already.

 

[wallman]

I didn't say you "had a tone". I was referring to the "tone" of your post in a literary sense.
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This whole exchange is now just one miscommunication after another.

So keep it going, I have all day. What part of 'I had a little giggle" didn't you like or was it that I included your team in a series of problems with reffing or that I called your coach out for whining about problems that all teams have and using it for sympathy. Or just that I have an opinion that disagrees and I am allowed that opinion whether you like it or not.

How many times do we hear the press call out Uconn for being too good, that needs to be called out, why not call out whining and poor sportsmanship when coaches make comments like "that other player" as they did with JPM.

 

[Orangutan]

So keep it going, I have all day.

Alas, I'm afraid I do not.

 

[wallman]

Alas, I'm afraid I do not.

Well then, I wish you a good day. I have no ill will to anyone.

 

[Orangutan]

Well then, I wish you a good day. I have no ill will to anyone.

Likewise.

 

[Woof 101]

MODS / officials make sure they shake after the event.

 

[shizam]

I like your first sentence is a great way to start here.
Not sure I can be the one to give you the most insight as I am a tad upset with overall officiating in the game in general. I will say one of the best chuckles I got out of the tourney was your last game. Not sure who but on a breakaway layup for the Cards the announcers were gushing on a great strip by Miss St player and the replay showed nothing but all upper arm down to the lower arm and across the back of the hand before reaching the ball which the aggressive foul forced out. No call.

Not happy with 6 trips to the line for UConn and 23 for ND but I will not say that was the game. We did turn the ball over two times more than them but lead all other statistical categories. Back to the officials I do find it hard to understand how a moving pick is never called and is a constant in the woman's game. That and my favorite pet peeve the last two minutes of a game is called different than the previous 38. There is an intentional foul rule and it is never called. You see officials actually anticipate blowing the whistle because they are aware of the situation. Then blow the whistle because someone touched the ball handlers arm, a no call in the previous 38 minutes, but not considered intentional.
Officials are human and that can speak for itself. They are affected by personal ideology as well as a like or dislike for the crowd / team or more important the coach.
This is is related to football but an interesting observation on officials none the less.
Why refs swallow the whistle - CNN.com

I thought both strips looked good. Morgan on Fuehring (HUGE play) and someone stripped Durr going up. Durr is easy to strip when on her way up to the hoop. Ball gets huge. Also, she has a tendency to dribble high right handed on the move. What’s the violation call when a player has a high dribble?

 

[Ukonnfan]

Officiating is a tough job. I would like to see the oficiating team look at the defensive vertical space of a player. Too many players are lowering their shoulders as a fulback, or jumping into the defender as the defender is trying to stand straight with their hands up. Fouls are called 99% of the time. We see it replayed over and over as we watch the womens game. I don’t have a bone to pick (really), but, one hero guard for ND is a great example of how to jump into a defender and go to the free throw line.

 

[Irishfan]

I posted this on the ND vs UCONN game thread but it applies here also:

I've said many times that WBB, both college and the WNBA have the worst refs of any college sport!
In the UCONN vs ND semi finals of the 2018 Final Four the chosen referees were, Jason Jones, Michael McConnell, and Karen Preato! WHO??????????
You would think that the Final Four would use the most experienced refs available. Where were: Dee Kantner, Lisa Mattingly, Bryan Enterline, Eric Brewton, Tom Danaher, Maj Forsberg, Cameron Inouye, Denise Brooks, or Tina Napier, among the most veteran officials! Referees that have worked the biggest games, that are familiar with the 2 teams and worked games going down to the last second! ND went to the line 23 times to UCONN's 6, if the veteran officials were working the game would the difference in the number of free throws have been different? Both teams got burned by bad ref calls! But UCONN got hurt worse by having 3 of their best players called for 4 fouls each, Gabby Williams, Kia Nurse, & Katie Lou Samuelson, which certainly affected their defensive style of play late in the game!
I think the inexperience of the chosen referees had something to do with the outcome!

Ten of ND’s free throws came in the last two minutes of regulation or the last two minutes of overtime. Crazy as it sounds, maybe the Uconn players were trying to foul the ND players on purpose. That might be more of a coaching problem than a referee problem.