Frustrated By Quality of Officiating

[RSHERMVIKES]

The refereeing in Women's basketball is awful, and there is no total solution as it is pretty bad in basketball just about everywhere. The game is very hard to referee as it requires lightning fast decisions and has to take into considerations a lot of factors. Not everything can be called, no matter how much I have heard calls for that to be done. But the best solution is in my opinion to get rid of the rule that requires a player to leave the game after a certain number of fouls. Give the player fouled an extra shot if the person fouling is over the limit of fouls. That way you wouldn't have the ridiculousness of Katie Lou letting people go right by her so she doesn't foul out. UConn would have won the game if it weren't for that absurd requirement. It gives the refs far too much power. Teams target the most important player on the other team and if the refs help them out, it increases their chances of winning the game tremendously. It is one of the most outlandish rules in sport. You don't foul out in baseball, you don't foul out in football, and you don't even foul out in hockey. It's nutty.

Roger G- - What a great idea that would inject some common sense into a horrible situation! The referees drive me insane, and that's a short drive!
I hope you don't mind but I copied your post above giving you full credit for the idea, obviously, and e-mailed it to June Courteau, the Coordinator of Women's Basketball for the NCAA, asking her if your idea about an extra free throw instead of being thrown out of the game for the 5th foul! I don't know if anything will be done as Common Sense is a lost art now-a-days!
Maybe this will take some of the power the referees now have to determine who wins a game!

 

[Roger G]

Roger G- - What a great idea that would inject some common sense into a horrible situation! The referees drive me insane, and that's a short drive!
I hope you don't mind but I copied your post above giving you full credit for the idea, obviously, and e-mailed it to June Courteau, the Coordinator of Women's Basketball for the NCAA, asking her if your idea about an extra free throw instead of being thrown out of the game for the 5th foul! I don't know if anything will be done as Common Sense is a lost art now-a-days!
Maybe this will take some of the power the referees now have to determine who wins a game!

Feel free to do what you want with the idea. Maybe if enough people lobbied for this it would happen. But it's not my idea, I've been hearing this for years and I just think it makes a lot of sense.

 

[ThisJustIn]

This is a horse that's rather dead, but here we are again. Officiating in EVERY sport is "horrible," or have you not been paying attention?

On the women's side, it's exacerbated in the WNBA because NCAA refs want to take a break and, you know, stay at home with their family. So, the pool of officials is not always the best.

If folks want to improve officiating:
1) convince conferences they should spend money on professional development.
2) convince coaches to stop disrespecting the profession. You say you want players to join the ranks - who in their right mind would, considering what you say about officials on and off the court
3) Get the NCAA to continue the transparency that was started by Mary Struckhoff. Not thinking that that's gonna happen, though, as Emmert is in charge. Women's basketball lost a ton when Sue Donohoe left.
4) educate yourself on the profession. I humbly repost articles I've written:

MAKING THE CALLS: The World of Referees

COACHES AND OFFICIALS: Reaching Across the Divide – A look at the relationship between officials and coaches and the impact on recruiting efforts

EARNING THEIR STRIPES: Officials in Training

OFFICIATING UNDER REVIEW: Coaches, Conferences and the NCAA Working to Collaborate

 

[the Q]

This is a horse that's rather dead, but here we are again. Officiating in EVERY sport is "horrible," or have you not been paying attention?

On the women's side, it's exacerbated in the WNBA because NCAA refs want to take a break and, you know, stay at home with their family. So, the pool of officials is not always the best.

If folks want to improve officiating:
1) convince conferences they should spend money on professional development.
2) convince coaches to stop disrespecting the profession. You say you want players to join the ranks - who in their right mind would, considering what you say about officials on and off the court
3) Get the NCAA to continue the transparency that was started by Mary Struckhoff. Not thinking that that's gonna happen, though, as Emmert is in charge. Women's basketball lost a ton when Sue Donohoe left.
4) educate yourself on the profession. I humbly repost articles I've written:

MAKING THE CALLS: The World of Referees

COACHES AND OFFICIALS: Reaching Across the Divide – A look at the relationship between officials and coaches and the impact on recruiting efforts

EARNING THEIR STRIPES: Officials in Training

OFFICIATING UNDER REVIEW: Coaches, Conferences and the NCAA Working to Collaborate

You seem to have been in the world of refereeing. I'm curious if you think the game is being called differently in the FF than it was the entire season up to the FF.

I know on the men's side this became a big point of contention during the heyday of the big east as some non-BE crews were hammering BE teams with calls that they hadn't seen all year. I think they've done a good job cleaning it up on that side.

I love the idea of more transparency. What the NBA is doing it a great start.

And I agree, i officiate the local HS, travel and AAU circuits to make extra money. Period. The stuff that you have to deal with though, let's just say I look forward to no longer needing that money.

 

[ThisJustIn]

I think that the difference between the tournament and the regular season is that the NCAA "manages" the officials during the tournament. I'm going to bet they review the Points of Emphasis the (coaches) on the Rules Committee have asked for and that they remind the officials about them.

At the beginning of season, the NCAA sends out those PoE via DVD. Someone on the coaching staff has to review'em and sign off. Somehow, ALL the officials have to review/digest/implement them. There's bound to be inconsistency - it depends on who the conference supervisor is and how much "control" they have over their officials. Can they pay them to participate in prof. dev.? What is the supervisor's personal point of view on the rules. How good are they as educators/coaches? Imagine, as an official, navigating each conferences vagaries. And then get plopped under the NCAA's supervision.

There's no perfect answer. Officials, like coaches and players, will make mistakes. Oddly enough, they're human. It would be nice if folks treated them with respect - all the conspiracy theories are beyond idiotic. But, if that's what keeps folks goin'!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I think that the difference between the tournament and the regular season is that the NCAA "manages" the officials during the tournament. I'm going to bet they review the Points of Emphasis the (coaches) on the Rules Committee have asked for and that they remind the officials about them.

At the beginning of season, the NCAA sends out those PoE via DVD. Someone on the coaching staff has to review'em and sign off. Somehow, ALL the officials have to review/digest/implement them. There's bound to be inconsistency - it depends on who the conference supervisor is and how much "control" they have over their officials. Can they pay them to participate in prof. dev.? What is the supervisor's personal point of view on the rules. How good are they as educators/coaches? Imagine, as an official, navigating each conferences vagaries. And then get plopped under the NCAA's supervision.

There's no perfect answer. Officials, like coaches and players, will make mistakes. Oddly enough, they're human. It would be nice if folks treated them with respect - all the conspiracy theories are beyond idiotic. But, if that's what keeps folks goin'!

ThisJustin- - -One of the calls that really burns me is the last several years the PofE has been use of the hands by the defensive player. If the defender put their hands on the offense it is a foul, but the defender runs down the offense and NO foul is called! How is that possible if you cannot use your hands, touch foul, but knock a player down and it's play on? The inconsistencies are outrageous!

 

[the Q]

I think that the difference between the tournament and the regular season is that the NCAA "manages" the officials during the tournament. I'm going to bet they review the Points of Emphasis the (coaches) on the Rules Committee have asked for and that they remind the officials about them.

At the beginning of season, the NCAA sends out those PoE via DVD. Someone on the coaching staff has to review'em and sign off. Somehow, ALL the officials have to review/digest/implement them. There's bound to be inconsistency - it depends on who the conference supervisor is and how much "control" they have over their officials. Can they pay them to participate in prof. dev.? What is the supervisor's personal point of view on the rules. How good are they as educators/coaches? Imagine, as an official, navigating each conferences vagaries. And then get plopped under the NCAA's supervision.

There's no perfect answer. Officials, like coaches and players, will make mistakes. Oddly enough, they're human. It would be nice if folks treated them with respect - all the conspiracy theories are beyond idiotic. But, if that's what keeps folks goin'!

The bigger problem is the NCAA having no accountability.

They admit no wrong doing.

It makes it look really bad.

And there’s not even a debate that the final four was called differently than basically ever other tournament game that I saw. And it wasn’t even close. It was basically a different sport.

Again. The NCAA says nothing.

Combine that with them proverbially sticking their tongue out for the Shepard transfer and their brand looks even worse than i thought it could.

The only positive is they didn’t double down like complete idiots as the NCAA football guy did after they blew the end of the Clemson/Bama game last year.

 

[ThisJustIn]

The bigger problem is the NCAA having no accountability.

They admit no wrong doing.

It makes it look really bad.

And there’s not even a debate that the final four was called differently than basically ever other tournament game that I saw. And it wasn’t even close. It was basically a different sport.

Again. The NCAA says nothing.

Combine that with them proverbially sticking their tongue out for the Shepard transfer and their brand looks even worse than i thought it could.

The only positive is they didn’t double down like complete idiots as the NCAA football guy did after they blew the end of the Clemson/Bama game last year.

You cannot "admit wrong" if you don't set up a level of trust and education with the coaches, players and fanbase. (And, you know that supervisors HAVE admitted errors) You CANNOT throw officials under the bus if you haven't set up a structure for them to be publicly critiqued. Privately, my understanding is every game tape is reviewed by the supervisors and discussed with the officials. Officials have been suspended and/or removed from rosters as a consequence of errors they've made. Anyone want to come up with a ratio "correct v. incorrect v. interpretation" calls that gets a ref booted? And, btw, when you boot a ref, who are you going to get to replace that person?

Sure coaches moan and complain and insinuate and get fined. That's because they've kvetch in public. In private, they can submit tapes for review. They can offer written feedback. They can speak to the supervisor. Having spoken with supervisors, they say that often there is no follow up after the press conference rant - that, upon review of the actual tape, the coaches see they were wrong. OR, the coaches simply enjoy whining, but have no interest in actually following up and learning. It takes time and commitment to actually engage in an learn about the process.

As for consistency? Bah. Hobgoblin and all that. Things that could help support that? Massive, ongoing training across the divisions. Fourth official? Technology upgrades - as in, sensors in shoes to cal 3 seconds? Bigger court, so now that players are bigger and taller they're spread out a bit more so officials can actually see?

Ultimately, I invite people to reflect on their own performance and the performance of those around them. What would YOU do to "make everyone better and more consistent"? What resources would it take to make that happen?

 

[the Q]

You cannot "admit wrong" if you don't set up a level of trust and education with the coaches, players and fanbase. (And, you know that supervisors HAVE admitted errors) You CANNOT throw officials under the bus if you haven't set up a structure for them to be publicly critiqued. Privately, my understanding is every game tape is reviewed by the supervisors and discussed with the officials. Officials have been suspended and/or removed from rosters as a consequence of errors they've made. Anyone want to come up with a ratio "correct v. incorrect v. interpretation" calls that gets a ref booted? And, btw, when you boot a ref, who are you going to get to replace that person?

Sure coaches moan and complain and insinuate and get fined. That's because they've kvetch in public. In private, they can submit tapes for review. They can offer written feedback. They can speak to the supervisor. Having spoken with supervisors, they say that often there is no follow up after the press conference rant - that, upon review of the actual tape, the coaches see they were wrong. OR, the coaches simply enjoy whining, but have no interest in actually following up and learning. It takes time and commitment to actually engage in an learn about the process.

As for consistency? Bah. Hobgoblin and all that. Things that could help support that? Massive, ongoing training across the divisions. Fourth official? Technology upgrades - as in, sensors in shoes to cal 3 seconds? Bigger court, so now that players are bigger and taller they're spread out a bit more so officials can actually see?

Ultimately, I invite people to reflect on their own performance and the performance of those around them. What would YOU do to "make everyone better and more consistent"? What resources would it take to make that happen?

The NCAA can admit that plays were screwed up. They just did that on the men's side when a crew let the wrong shooter take FTs during the tourney.

You could have easily admitted how badly they just blew the last 5 seconds of the NC game. But they couldn't even do that.

I agree you need improved training. In CT we have college refs on HS officiating boards. That's not as helpful as it could be.

But again, look at the nba, a last 2 minute report. Provides immediate accountability. As long as you're honest about things, unlike NCAA football proved in my previous example.

Publishing a report would be a good start.

But when the ncaa can't even admit that Katie Lou's 3rd foul was complete bs becuase a girl's foot was out of bounds, they lose any credibility they could've had. That's a basic call. Not a very hard one to make.

I would agree that having 4 refs for the FF is a good idea though.

But if you don't think that the FF was called differently than the other games, we might as well stop. It was like rugby out there. Especially when ND was on D.

 

[hugefan]

Excellent posts Q. The problem with trying to make excuses for the refs is they are hired and paid by the NCAA. They are paid well and just like any other employment, should be held accountable and it should be transparent. What are they trying to hide.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

The NCAA can admit that plays were screwed up. They just did that on the men's side when a crew let the wrong shooter take FTs during the tourney.

You could have easily admitted how badly they just blew the last 5 seconds of the NC game. But they couldn't even do that.

I agree you need improved training. In CT we have college refs on HS officiating boards. That's not as helpful as it could be.

But again, look at the nba, a last 2 minute report. Provides immediate accountability. As long as you're honest about things, unlike NCAA football proved in my previous example.

Publishing a report would be a good start.

But when the ncaa can't even admit that Katie Lou's 3rd foul was complete bs becuase a girl's foot was out of bounds, they lose any credibility they could've had. That's a basic call. Not a very hard one to make.

I would agree that having 4 refs for the FF is a good idea though.

But if you don't think that the FF was called differently than the other games, we might as well stop. It was like rugby out there. Especially when ND was on D.

the Q- - - - -I agree with your post. I've stated previously, IMHO all WBB referees stink because ex-refs evaluate their friends and there is NO accountability!
In the UCONN vs ND semi finals of the 2018 Final Four the chosen referees were, Jason Jones, Michael McConnell, and Karen Preato! WHO??????????
You would think that the Final Four would use the most experienced refs available. Where were: Dee Kantner, Lisa Mattingly, Bryan Enterline, Eric Brewton, Tom Danaher, Maj Forsberg, Cameron Inouye, Denise Brooks, or Tina Napier, among the most veteran officials! Referees that have worked the biggest games, that are familiar with the 2 teams and worked games going down to the last second! ND went to the line 23 times to UCONN's 6, if the veteran officials were working the game would the difference in the number of free throws have been different? Both teams got burned by bad ref calls! But UCONN got hurt worse by having 3 of their best players called for 4 fouls each, Gabby Williams, Kia Nurse, & Katie Lou Samuelson, which certainly affected their defensive style of play late in the game!
I think the inexperience of the chosen referees had something to do with the outcome!
When important games such as Semi Finals & Finals are constantly being looked at because of questionable officiating you would think the powers that be would revue and make changes necessary to eliminate the doubt but by putting 3 novices in a pressure situation you're asking for problems!

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

The NCAA can admit that plays were screwed up. They just did that on the men's side when a crew let the wrong shooter take FTs during the tourney.

You could have easily admitted how badly they just blew the last 5 seconds of the NC game. But they couldn't even do that.

I agree you need improved training. In CT we have college refs on HS officiating boards. That's not as helpful as it could be.

But again, look at the nba, a last 2 minute report. Provides immediate accountability. As long as you're honest about things, unlike NCAA football proved in my previous example.

Publishing a report would be a good start.

But when the ncaa can't even admit that Katie Lou's 3rd foul was complete bs becuase a girl's foot was out of bounds, they lose any credibility they could've had. That's a basic call. Not a very hard one to make.

I would agree that having 4 refs for the FF is a good idea though.

But if you don't think that the FF was called differently than the other games, we might as well stop. It was like rugby out there. Especially when ND was on D.

I am just going to say:
1 - The odd call in the last 5 seconds of the NC game was ultimately a judgement call. I'm sure it was evaluated.
2 - The call against Samuelson was just wrong - the referee screwed up. Period. Foot out of bounds and obvious on TV. But in the end, it was just a missed call.
3 - And what, pray tell, should the NCAA do about it? What is gained by saying - our officials missed a call and it affected the outcome of the game? or Official so and so missed a call and we are going to do x, y and z to them?

I'm with TJI. It is a difficult profession where even good refs make mistakes. Years ago I read an article about (maybe by) Lisa Mattingly where she talked quite honestly about an instance that affected the game where she blew her whistle and called a foul, even as she realized "oops", that she erred. Happens, you can't take the foul back.

And if you really think that was "rugby like" - come on out to a PAC 12 game some time. To be fair, a lot of the contact isn't really fouls (contending for loose balls, just physicality away from the ball, that type of stuff), but it sure is rough.

 

[wallman]

Not sure why you are bringing up the PAC as it has not been as physical for quite some time IMO. Even Missy Barlow would have done a better job than the officials at the Final Four and thats saying something. But if you keep making excuses because your team won and ignore the fact that they were really bad, then our game will never improve.

 

[the Q]

I am just going to say:
1 - The odd call in the last 5 seconds of the NC game was ultimately a judgement call. I'm sure it was evaluated.
2 - The call against Samuelson was just wrong - the referee screwed up. Period. Foot out of bounds and obvious on TV. But in the end, it was just a missed call.
3 - And what, pray tell, should the NCAA do about it? What is gained by saying - our officials missed a call and it affected the outcome of the game? or Official so and so missed a call and we are going to do x, y and z to them?

I'm with TJI. It is a difficult profession where even good refs make mistakes. Years ago I read an article about (maybe by) Lisa Mattingly where she talked quite honestly about an instance that affected the game where she blew her whistle and called a foul, even as she realized "oops", that she erred. Happens, you can't take the foul back.

And if you really think that was "rugby like" - come on out to a PAC 12 game some time. To be fair, a lot of the contact isn't really fouls (contending for loose balls, just physicality away from the ball, that type of stuff), but it sure is rough.

1 - it should be made public. Even the NBA, who has legit fixed games. It's a fact that we know. We have the smoking gun. Even THEY now have 2 minute reports for transparency.

2- It was a huge missed call, again, just admit it and move on.

3- The NCAA gains credibility and adds transparency to the process. The mens side came out an banned Tim Higgins crew from the FF for letting the wrong player shoot FTs in like a first round game. All 3 crews from the FF should already publicly be BANNED from next year's FF for the miserable job they did this year. You gain alot by holding them accountable.

Also, Mattingly could've just called it an inadvertent whistle. She didn't have to make the call. It has happened before in basketball history.

The P12 beign more physical than those FF games is just laughable.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Not sure why you are bringing up the PAC as it has not been as physical for quite some time IMO. Even Missy Barlow would have done a better job than the officials at the Final Four and thats saying something. But if you keep making excuses because your team won and ignore the fact that they were really bad, then our game will never improve.

If you are talking to me - I bring up the PAC because I am a Rutgers / Arizona fan, and have for 6 years only attended (a limited number, due to the wife's health) Arizona games, where this past season we had floor seats. Prior to that, we attended Rutgers games home and away for 15 years.

As someone who doesn't get the PAC12 network due to DirecTV, and watches almost all the games on "regular" TV, I can't vouch for games across the entire PAC or what happened historically. I can only say that, in the games I have attended over the last 6 years, much more physicality is allowed on the court than was ever allowed in the oBE. High physicality and a lot of touch fouls, based on what I see.

Now, I will admit, since Rutgers was physical, and perceived as even more physical than they were, perhaps ref's called it especially tight in RU games. I can only say that there are numerous instances I have seen at Arizona where RU would have been called for a foul.

I don't think refereeing is particularly good, and have written, in past threads, about some of the issues I perceive. I also posted in a previous thread that I think the tendency is to call fewer fouls in the Final Four and to allow a more physical game than would be allowed in season.

And I'm not a big fan of announcing errors by officiating crews unless they are correctable - which, sadly, they are not. My 2 biggest complaints are one "error" and one "poor judgement" -
1 - Clockgate at Tennessee
2 - Melissa Barlow at Rutgers vs. Stanford where she (correctly, technically) called a foul on RU for a reach in with less than a second left in the game and RU up by 1. My issue being, the reach in occurred as the Stanford player was pinned to the side-line in front of the RU bench, completely incapable of scoring. If the player had not reached in, RU would have won. While I believe in consistency, and don't really want things to be done differently at the end of the game, I hate where referees directly affect the result by something they do (as opposed to don't do).

 

[the Q]

If you are talking to me - I bring up the PAC because I am a Rutgers / Arizona fan, and have for 6 years only attended (a limited number, due to the wife's health) Arizona games, where this past season we had floor seats. Prior to that, we attended Rutgers games home and away for 15 years.

As someone who doesn't get the PAC12 network due to DirecTV, and watches almost all the games on "regular" TV, I can't vouch for games across the entire PAC or what happened historically. I can only say that, in the games I have attended over the last 6 years, much more physicality is allowed on the court than was ever allowed in the oBE. High physicality and a lot of touch fouls, based on what I see.

Now, I will admit, since Rutgers was physical, and perceived as even more physical than they were, perhaps ref's called it especially tight in RU games. I can only say that there are numerous instances I have seen at Arizona where RU would have been called for a foul.

I don't think refereeing is particularly good, and have written, in past threads, about some of the issues I perceive. I also posted in a previous thread that I think the tendency is to call fewer fouls in the Final Four and to allow a more physical game than would be allowed in season.

And I'm not a big fan of announcing errors by officiating crews unless they are correctable - which, sadly, they are not. My 2 biggest complaints are one "error" and one "poor judgement" -
1 - Clockgate at Tennessee
2 - Melissa Barlow at Rutgers vs. Stanford where she (correctly, technically) called a foul on RU for a reach in with less than a second left in the game and RU up by 1. My issue being, the reach in occurred as the Stanford player was pinned to the side-line in front of the RU bench, completely incapable of scoring. If the player had not reached in, RU would have won. While I believe in consistency, and don't really want things to be done differently at the end of the game, I hate where referees directly affect the result by something they do (as opposed to don't do).

the issue with #2, is that they did the opposite in this NCG...and we saw what happened there.

 

[wallman]

If you are talking to me - I bring up the PAC because I am a Rutgers / Arizona fan, and have for 6 years only attended (a limited number, due to the wife's health) Arizona games, where this past season we had floor seats. Prior to that, we attended Rutgers games home and away for 15 years.

As someone who doesn't get the PAC12 network due to DirecTV, and watches almost all the games on "regular" TV, I can't vouch for games across the entire PAC or what happened historically. I can only say that, in the games I have attended over the last 6 years, much more physicality is allowed on the court than was ever allowed in the oBE. High physicality and a lot of touch fouls, based on what I see.

Now, I will admit, since Rutgers was physical, and perceived as even more physical than they were, perhaps ref's called it especially tight in RU games. I can only say that there are numerous instances I have seen at Arizona where RU would have been called for a foul.

I don't think refereeing is particularly good, and have written, in past threads, about some of the issues I perceive. I also posted in a previous thread that I think the tendency is to call fewer fouls in the Final Four and to allow a more physical game than would be allowed in season.

And I'm not a big fan of announcing errors by officiating crews unless they are correctable - which, sadly, they are not. My 2 biggest complaints are one "error" and one "poor judgement" -
1 - Clockgate at Tennessee
2 - Melissa Barlow at Rutgers vs. Stanford where she (correctly, technically) called a foul on RU for a reach in with less than a second left in the game and RU up by 1. My issue being, the reach in occurred as the Stanford player was pinned to the side-line in front of the RU bench, completely incapable of scoring. If the player had not reached in, RU would have won. While I believe in consistency, and don't really want things to be done differently at the end of the game, I hate where referees directly affect the result by something they do (as opposed to don't do).

My comment was in reference to physicality. Been around the PAC for many moons. It is not as physical. ASU used to be known for how physical they were on defense and they are not physical at all any more. Could it be due to rule changes over the years who knows. Could it be due to the different type of players coaches are getting, who knows, it could be a combination of a lot of things, but it is definitely not as physical as it used to be.