Free throws

[meyers7]

I miss Olde Coach/Warren. I know many here do also.

I miss him too, but I don't miss his rants about free throws.

 

[DobbsRover2]

It is probably not important in majority of the games. But it does make a difference in a closely contested game. One might say that it cost uconn a game this season over Stanford.(FT is definitely not a reason on the top of the list for losing that game.) however, if the FT had been better, they could have won that game despite of the deficiency in other area.

Well, yeah, but I could point to a hundred factors that cost a win at Stanford, a missed rebound, a missed bunny, a sloppy pass, not getting out to the arc quickly enough, etc. We can always say if we just hit that FT in the first half we could have won the game, but that is not a very logical way to look at games that are a chaos of complex factors. FT shooting is important, but no one should go crazy about it or put too much emphasis on it at the cost of more major things.

Put it this way, as mentioned, practice time is a critical resource, and for a team like UConn that has very few close games, it is probably wiser to apply your time to practicing skills that will make you a truly dominating force on the floor instead of setting aside say 30 minutes to endlessly practicing a procedure that may not even be greatly helped by practice, if some experts are to be believed, or can just go sloppy even if you shoot thousands of them. Wilt Chamberlain shot 87% on FTs in his 100 point game in 1962, which is extraordinary, but that was the one year he averaged over 60%, and he was at 51.1% for his career. He is considered one of the greatest players ever based on other factors than his FT shooting.

And nothing is preordained for a freshman like Kia Nurse, who has averaged about 67% in international play over the years. The vast majority of UConn players not named Meghan Pattyson (Culmo) have enjoyed at least a small gain in FT% from their freshman year, and dozens have jumped anywhere from 5 to 20 points from frosh to senior year. Amy Duran shot a decent 72.7% as a frosh and then as a junior shot 95.5% and ending her career average at 86.0%. Maybe she can be brought back to give a few FT shooting clinics. Sue Bird is of course another great choice for a FT clinic guru as she shot 94.2% in her senior year and 89.2% for her career, though because of the frosh year injury she only took 4 FTAs that year.

 

[geneticrex]

Missing the first of a 1-and-1 does not of course mean you blew 2 points unless you're a 100% FT shooter, but if you blew that first one, you're not. Shots average out over a season, so on average UConn probably missed about 25% of their one-and-ones, and it certainly didn't cost them any games.

Only 28 of the 343 WCBB programs shot 75% or better last year, so more than 92% of the programs are defective at the line if 75% is used as the litmus test of acceptability. Heck Stanford got to the FF shooting under 70%, and Middle Tennessee won 29 games shooting 62.7% and Navy won 24 shooting 61.5%. Only 10 of the 64 teams in the NCAA tournament shot 75% or better, and only 36% of the 28 teams that hit the mark made it to the tourney.

So yes, you do want to make your FTs at a reasonable rate, but coaches probably feel they have more important items to use the brunt of their practice time on, things like hitting 3s and layups, effective passing, and pulling down rebounds, and setting good picks, and playing pressure defense, and . . . .

How I should have phrased it was, missing the front of a 1 & 1 means you blew a CHANCE at 2 points.

In UCONN's loss to Stanford, they were subpar at the free throw line, including missing 1 & 1s. During that run of miracle wins by ND against UCONN, one win in particular was directly related to UCONN's miserable night at the free throw line, so to say poor foul shooting "certainly didn't cost them any games", is inaccurate.

You don't need more than yourself to practice free throws, so if you are deficient in that area, taking 30 minutes out of your day is a small price to pay to improve in an area that is critical, especially down the stretch in tight games. There is no need to cut into a team's overall practice time to hone a skill that requires only a ball, a basket and a shooter, so your assertion that it would take away from the "important" phases of the game, is a non-starter.

While 75% is lofty for a team number, it is a percentage that the rotation of players that actually play, especially in crunch time, should strive to attain. Women's basketball is a game of fundamentals and one of the key fundamentals is free throw shooting.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I miss him too, but I don't miss his rants about free throws.

Or shoes!

IIRC - during the great FT debate of several years ago Auriemma (during one of his CPTV shows??)basically said that he didn't worry too much about FTs or maybe he said didn't devote any practice time to FTs .

 

[DobbsRover2]

How I should have phrased it was, missing the front of a 1 & 1 means you blew a CHANCE at 2 points.

In UCONN's loss to Stanford, they were subpar at the free throw line, including missing 1 & 1s. During that run of miracle wins by ND against UCONN, one win in particular was directly related to UCONN's miserable night at the free throw line, so to say poor foul shooting "certainly didn't cost them any games", is inaccurate.

You don't need more than yourself to practice free throws, so if you are deficient in that area, taking 30 minutes out of your day is a small price to pay to improve in an area that is critical, especially down the stretch in tight games. There is no need to cut into a team's overall practice time to hone a skill that requires only a ball, a basket and a shooter, so your assertion that it would take away from the "important" phases of the game, is a non-starter.

While 75% is lofty for a team number, it is a percentage that the rotation of players that actually play, especially in crunch time, should strive to attain. Women's basketball is a game of fundamentals and one of the key fundamentals is free throw shooting.

Again, losses can be blamed on many factors, and any one you choose to pin the FTs on I can just as easily point to dumb passes or missed assignments or Geno's hair gel.

Last year UConn had likely the worst FT shooting game ever against the Irish with a 46.7% effort, but I don't think that was much on their minds while they were cutting down the NC nets. In both of the years before that they shot 82% in losses to ND and in neither of those two years of losing 3 of 4 to ND did they shoot under 67%. As said, other factors weighed far more heavily, including the fact that they took only 11 FTAs in those two 82% FT shooting losses.

The good thing is that three of the four times the Huskies won the NC in the previous 6 years, the FT% improved over the course of the season by at least a modest amount. Hard to say about 2009-10 because the FT shooting that year was a crazy roller coaster all year long that culminated in a 20-41 effort in the FF. In fact, UConn has shot a combined 51% at the FT line in its last three NCs, and still only 57% if you throw in 2008-09. Maybe some big game pressure showing there, but FT% did not cost them any NC games.

 

[geneticrex]

Again, losses can be blamed on many factors, and any one you choose to pin the FTs on I can just as easily point to dumb passes or missed assignments or Geno's hair gel.

Last year UConn had likely the worst FT shooting game ever against the Irish with a 46.7% effort, but I don't think that was much on their minds while they were cutting down the NC nets. In both of the years before that they shot 82% in losses to ND and in neither of those two years of losing 3 of 4 to ND did they shoot under 67%. As said, other factors weighed far more heavily, including the fact that they took only 11 FTAs in those two 82% FT shooting losses.

The good thing is that three of the four times the Huskies won the NC in the previous 6 years, the FT% improved over the course of the season by at least a modest amount. Hard to say about 2009-10 because the FT shooting that year was a crazy roller coaster all year long that culminated in a 20-41 effort in the FF. In fact, UConn has shot a combined 51% at the FT line in its last three NCs, and still only 57% if you throw in 2008-09. Maybe some big game pressure showing there, but FT% did not cost them any NC games.

I get it Dobbster, you don't believe missed free throws are a big deal.

I do.

I don't care if you change your mind and I'm sure you don't care if I change mine.

 

[EricLA]

I looked up a few players -

Tiff Hayes went from 75 to 80%
Maya Moore went from 74 to 84%
Bria Hartley went from 73 to 69%
Stef Dolson went from 81 to 79%

Safe to say it's possible to see the FT% increase, but also possible to see it decrease. By the way Dee's FT% went down over the course of her career too.

 

[geneticrex]

Again, losses can be blamed on many factors, and any one you choose to pin the FTs on I can just as easily point to dumb passes or missed assignments or Geno's hair gel.

The team that has put more points on the scoreboard has won every basketball game ever played. Dumb passes and/or missed assignments may, or may not equate to points on the scoreboard. Free throws lead directly to points on the scoreboard. They are unlike field goal percentage as they are not defended. A missed free throw has a direct and immediate consequence on the scoreboard.

I don't think Doug Bruno, in his post game press conference will sight hair gel, Geno's, or anyone else's as factors in tonight's heartbreaking loss to ND.

Bottom line: Want to win close games more often than not??? Make your free throws.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I get it Dobbster, you don't believe missed free throws are a big deal.

I do.

I don't care if you change your mind and I'm sure you don't care if I change mine.

No big deal, and since missing a certain amount of FTs on the year is inevitable just as losing 50 games in the MLB is, I'm not going to fret over it that much though I understand you will be losing some follicles over it. And all those who want to weep over UConn's terrible FT shooting in NC games will naturally understand if I pay more attention to the stats that really matter. And if there are those who say that the minimally acceptable FT% is one that only 7% of teams achieve in the best of years, I will say it is a noble goal but maybe getting back in touch with reality can also be a useful goal.

And bottom line, if you want to win games, score more baskets. I know you worship your FTs, but the Huskies did win some games last year where the other team scored more points at the charity stripe, including yes that NC game. Feel free not to be concerned about the dumb passes that prevent the buckets from being scored or any of the other integral parts of a smoothly running championship team since I'm sure that gnashing the molars down to the gums over missed freebies is the best way to get to #10.

 

[Huskies Rule]

Tonight's ND-DePaul game more brutally exemplified the importance of free throws than any game I have ever seen. In my life. DePaul absolutely blew the game at the line, handing it to ND on a silver platter. For the entire game, DePaul was an inexcusably pathetic 12 for 29 !! But it gets much much worse. In the second half, with leads at various times of as much as 8 points and never trailing after the 11 minute mark until the end of regulation, against an ND team not playing well and with the chance to put the game out of reach, DePaul missed the front end of 7 one-and-ones !! Holy cow !! On their home court !! In just the last 4:00 minutes of regulation, guard Hrynko went 1 for 6 from the line, several of which were the front ends of one-and-ones. In the overtime, Hrynko's horror show got even worse, going 3 for 9 shooting free throws, throwing up brick after brick. The kid didn't want any part of shooting free throws, I felt really bad for her. Coach Bruno and DePaul would have had a great win for their program if they could just do one of the easier yet critical elements in basketball. Sadly they couldn't.

 

[geneticrex]

No big deal, and since missing a certain amount of FTs on the year is inevitable just as losing 50 games in the MLB is, I'm not going to fret over it that much though I understand you will be losing some follicles over it. And all those who want to weep over UConn's terrible FT shooting in NC games will naturally understand if I pay more attention to the stats that really matter. And if there are those who say that the minimally acceptable FT% is one that only 7% of teams achieve in the best of years, I will say it is a noble goal but maybe getting back in touch with reality can also be a useful goal.

And bottom line, if you want to win games, score more baskets. I know you worship your FTs, but the Huskies did win some games last year where the other team scored more points at the charity stripe, including yes that NC game. Feel free not to be concerned about the dumb passes that prevent the buckets from being scored or any of the other integral parts of a smoothly running championship team since I'm sure that gnashing the molars down to the gums over missed freebies is the best way to get to #10.

I normally don't fret over missed shots, bad passes, missed free throws, or anything else that may disrupt a smoothly running championship team, since the majority of UCONN games are blowouts, including some of those national championship games.

I do sometimes fret over some of UCONN's losses when they could have won if not for inconsistent free throw shooting, or when they scored more baskets yet lost because of free throw disparity and while these may be a rare occurrence, it has happened.

Statistics can be deceiving and like a very smart man once said, "There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies and statistics".

If only ND had missed 1 more free throw tonight.

 

[meyers7]

But it gets much much worse. In the second half, with leads at various times of as much as 8 points and never trailing after the 11 minute mark until the end of regulation, against an ND team not playing well and with the chance to put the game out of reach, DePaul missed the front end of 7 one-and-ones !!

Ok hold on. I did not see the game but how did they get 7 one-and-ones, in the second half? I must be missing something. You only get to shoot one-and-ones on the 7th foul in a half. At the 10th foul you shoot 2. How did they get 7 chances between fouls 7 and 10???

 

[Huskies Rule]

As I steamed watching DePaul blow FT after FT and give game away, had brain cell meltdown as they missed more like 7 bazillion chances.

 

[Icebear]

There have been few more clear examples of how important competency on foul shooting is than watching DePaul choke. It completely steamrolled and got away from them.

 

[Zorro]

I don't have the time or incentive to do the research, but am willing to bet that if anyone does, you will find that there is no correlation between free-throw accuracy and either the importance of the game or the closeness of the game. I don't know if any research has been done on this, but Stephen Jay Gould did do some research on "hot streats" and "cold streaks" and found no correlation at all between recent past performance and current performance. That is to say, a player who had just swished six shots was no more or less likely to make the next than the same player who had just missed six. The only statistical predictor of the success or failure of a shot was the player's over-all record of success or failure. A 67& shooter has a 67% chance of making a given shot regardless. I think that all this talk of "choking" or "stepping up" is simply wrong; you either make 'em or you don't. The "law of large numbers" says that, although if you flip a coin 10,000 times, you will get very close to 5000 heads and 5000 tails, over that stretch you will have runs of 10, 15, 20 or more consecutive heads (or tails). The same applies to free-throw shooting.

 

[Bill In Georgia]

Wonder, What is the daily drill for FT's these days. Used to be in the 1950/60ies .. 25 off the bench, then three rounds of ... three laps and 1 and then 1 lap and 1 another lap and 1. You had to make all 3 shots or you repeated up to 3 rounds.
What's the drill in 2014?

 

[RadyLady]

Its funny reading this thread now..
we didn't shoot 3 free throws well but we did everything else well and we won the game, and the free throws were not an issue.

anybody see the DePaul game last night?

 

[Icebear]

Its funny reading this thread now..
we didn't shoot 3 free throws well but we did everything else well and we won the game, and the free throws were not an issue.

anybody see the DePaul game last night?

Different story wasn't it.

 

[sawxfan23]

Don't think free throws are important? Just ask the men's team which won a National Championship last year because they shot 10/10 from the line while Kentucky was 13/24. In fact they were able to shoot an amazing 41/45 from the Elite 8 through the National Championship game.

 

[Bayareahusky]

how many times has syracuse lost big games because they could not hit from the free stripe?

 

[Zorro]

I am not saying that they are not important; of course they are. I am only saying that there is really nothing you can do about them. They drop or they don't drop. One more piece of evidence, and I rest my case;
https://books.google.com.gt/books?i...nepage&q=stephen gould on hot streaks&f=false

 

[DobbsRover2]

Ah, those cursed missed FTs. Always an easy boogie man to blame defeats on and then rail about how ultra important they are to a team's success. I could as well point a defense that allows 80+ points, or poor rebounding, or not being able to hit those 3s as the chief bugaboo for teams. Speaking of which, going back to that 2001 semi game with ND, clearly it was that 20% UConn shooting on 3s (and DT 0-11) that doomed UConn rather than giving up 90 points. I say that because that's my chief bugaboo for today, just like others harp on their beloved FT%. The fact that UConn went 0-9 on 3s the next year while winning the NC does not change my mind a whit because stats are just mindless annoyances.

I'll post a thread shortly reviewing the 17 NCAA stats categories and what bearing they seem to have on the top team's success, but likely it will be sent elsewhere to that cessy forum since stat analyses are generally frowned on and get you banned on the BY.

 

[hussybulldog]

Nobody was arguing FT was at the top of the list of losing. Certainly it is not important at all in all those blow outs you mentioned. However it can alter the outcome of those contested games.

Again, losses can be blamed on many factors, and any one you choose to pin the FTs on I can just as easily point to dumb passes or missed assignments or Geno's hair gel.

Last year UConn had likely the worst FT shooting game ever against the Irish with a 46.7% effort, but I don't think that was much on their minds while they were cutting down the NC nets. In both of the years before that they shot 82% in losses to ND and in neither of those two years of losing 3 of 4 to ND did they shoot under 67%. As said, other factors weighed far more heavily, including the fact that they took only 11 FTAs in those two 82% FT shooting losses.

The good thing is that three of the four times the Huskies won the NC in the previous 6 years, the FT% improved over the course of the season by at least a modest amount. Hard to say about 2009-10 because the FT shooting that year was a crazy roller coaster all year long that culminated in a 20-41 effort in the FF. In fact, UConn has shot a combined 51% at the FT line in its last three NCs, and still only 57% if you throw in 2008-09. Maybe some big game pressure showing there, but FT% did not cost them any NC games.

 

[Beemer]

Free throws are important precisely because they are free- nobody in your face, nobody trying to steal the ball from you, nobody blocking your shot. Just you and the basket. A free throw can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

Why wouldn't a coach want his/her team to excel at free throw shooting? It is a chance for the team to get something for nothing.

 

[VAMike23]

Ah, those cursed missed FTs. Always an easy boogie man to blame defeats on and then rail about how ultra important they are to a team's success. I could as well point a defense that allows 80+ points, or poor rebounding, or not being able to hit those 3s as the chief bugaboo for teams. Speaking of which, going back to that 2001 semi game with ND, clearly it was that 20% UConn shooting on 3s (and DT 0-11) that doomed UConn rather than giving up 90 points. I say that because that's my chief bugaboo for today, just like others harp on their beloved FT%. The fact that UConn went 0-9 on 3s the next year while winning the NC does not change my mind a whit because stats are just mindless annoyances.

I'll post a thread shortly reviewing the 17 NCAA stats categories and what bearing they seem to have on the top team's success, but likely it will be sent elsewhere to that cessy forum since stat analyses are generally frowned on and get you banned on the BY.

Yeah, pretty much anyone who offers up statistical analysis of any sort gets banned here. That's the ticket! Makes perfect sense. I'm sure we could go do a forum search for any posters who bring up statistics and analyze them and then see these same posters mysteriously dropping away like flies, by the dozens.

Or maybe what some would like to call "analysis" is really a little bit of analysis and a lot of something else.