For what it is worth

[Thirdelement]

I wonder if part of the reason the ACC chose Pitt is that they are regularly on Notre Dame's schedule and important to Notre Dame alumni? Having Pitt in the league would have made it MUCH easier on selling Notre Dame on 5 ACC games a year.

 

[UConn Dan]

I know that there seems to be some people on this board that believe that the ACC wanted to bring in Syracuse and UConn as opposed to Pitt, but trust me, Pitt held a ton of cards here: an AAU school with a lot of tradition located in a good TV market and one of the best football recruiting areas in the northern half of the US (western Pennsylvania). In a world where Penn State didn't exist, Pitt would have been a shoe-in for the Big Ten. The Big 12 didn't want to just add WVU and/or Louisville alone. HuskyHawk nails it that the Big 12 was looking at adding Pitt, WVU, Cincinnati and Louisville all as a unit, with Pitt being considered the most valuable piece in that puzzle. Whatever people might think of the ACC, John Swofford is NOT dumb. He knew that he had to act immediately if the ACC ever wanted Pitt (and they deemed Pitt to be a much more valuable piece than other Big East candidates), so that's what spurred the Pitt/Syracuse expansion in September 2011.

Frank, you're wrong about this. BCs Defilipo is on record of saying the original plan was Syracuse an UConn but blocked UConn. He was on the expansion committee as well.

 

[pinotbear]

the title of the thread inspired this link: listening to the lyrics, it's even more appropriate..

 

[hthusky74]

Seems absurd to me. USF gives them nothing. UConn gives them an eastern team for WVU to play...in theory. In reality, Storrs is not close to Morgantown. Cinci would make much more sense for them as a midwestern school. Unlike the B1G, markets don't really matter to the B12.

USF gives them a toehold in Florida.

 

[The Viking]

John and others. If there was not a suitable replacement for us, the ACC would have given the middle finger to BC and signed up UConn. But there was.

That does NOT mean that Pitt was choice #2 and we were choice #3 at the beginning of their 2-team expansion in '11. That merely means that the ACC had a good enough replacement to go along with BC's block. Schools don't usually like to go over a member's block unless they have to. Because what comes around goes around...but as long as there is an adequate replacement - which Pitt was - then the ACC bowed to BC's wishes.

it's really that simple.

 

[ASweet3781]

John and others. If there was not a suitable replacement for us, the ACC would have given the middle finger to BC and signed up UConn. But there was.

That does NOT mean that Pitt was choice #2 and we were choice #3 at the beginning of their 2-team expansion in '11. That merely means that the ACC had a good enough replacement to go along with BC's block. Schools don't usually like to go over a member's block unless they have to. Because what comes around goes around...but as long as there is an adequate replacement - which Pitt was - then the ACC bowed to BC's wishes.

it's really that simple.

The wonderful thing with CT reporters being lazy, not doing their jobs, and not doing you know actual reporting during this entire catastrophe that is conference realignment, people are simply making up and interpreting their own history of what happened in the past.

Well I can play that game too. We now have 10 years worth of ACC moves to digest. Every move that was made since 2003 has been the worst possible outcome from how it affects UConn.

Got news for you. It's not just BC that doesn't want us in that league. They alone didn't mastermind a way to keep us out. They had plenty of sympathetic ears. I don't think John Swofford wants us in that league. I don't think Miami and their troll of a President want us. I don't think the football schools IE. FSU, Clemson, etc want us either. Don't think our "friends" up in Syracuse would be too supportive for us to join. Maybe it's the lawsuit. Maybe it's jealousy. Fear of competition. Or in some cases the football factories have bought the smears that we are an embarrassment in football and not worthy to join.

The fact our school even thought an invite would ever come from that league is disturbing. It is obvious. They not only don't want us, they want us eliminated. And it's not just BC.

 

[The Viking]

The wonderful thing with CT reporters being lazy, not doing their jobs, and not doing you know actual reporting during this entire catastrophe that is conference realignment, people are simply making up and interpreting their own history of what happened in the past.

Well I can play that game too. We now have 10 years worth of ACC moves to digest. Every move that was made since 2003 has been the worst possible outcome from how it affects UConn.

Got news for you. It's not just BC that doesn't want us in that league. They alone didn't mastermind a way to keep us out. They had plenty of sympathetic ears. I don't think John Swofford wants us in that league. I don't think Miami and their troll of a President want us. I don't think the football schools IE. FSU, Clemson, etc want us either. Don't think our "friends" up in Syracuse would be too supportive for us to join. Maybe it's the lawsuit. Maybe it's jealousy. Fear of competition. Or in some cases the football factories have bought the smears that we are an embarrassment in football and not worthy to join.

The fact our school even thought an invite would ever come from that league is disturbing. It is obvious. They not only don't want us, they want us eliminated. And it's not just BC.

A reporter with the Boston Globe did homework on this and wrote an article about it.

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/articles/2011/10/09/power_move_by_acc/

The second target was Connecticut, which was part of the Northeast footprint the ACC wanted, and was coming off the daily double of a BCS bid in football and a championship in men’s basketball (the third for Jim Calhoun).

While Syracuse presented no problem, UConn did - to BC, which was still fuming over what it perceived to be vitriolic comments made when BC was finally invited to join the ACC and started competing in 2005. UConn and Pittsburgh filed a lawsuit against BC, and Calhoun made comments about never playing BC again.
DeFilippo does not deny that BC opposed the inclusion of UConn.
“We didn’t want them in,’’ he said. “It was a matter of turf. We wanted to be the New England team.’’
BC officials argued that Pittsburgh, with a stronger tradition in football, as well as a long-established - though dormant - rivalry with the Eagles, would be a better fit.
Although BC and UConn are the only FBS schools in New England, BC officials were reluctant to give UConn any more credence. Membership in the ACC would do that.

Duke and North Carolina, who have thrived as rivals and neighbors, didn’t quite understand the passion behind BC’s argument, but Pittsburgh seemed like a reasonable alternative. Under Jamie Dixon, Pittsburgh had established itself as a national power in men’s basketball, so the Tobacco Road contingent didn’t argue. Calls were made and invitations were accepted.

Can we put this idea to bed that BC didn't prevent us from getting into the ACC please?

 

[upstater]

The wonderful thing with CT reporters being lazy, not doing their jobs, and not doing you know actual reporting during this entire catastrophe that is conference realignment, people are simply making up and interpreting their own history of what happened in the past.

Well I can play that game too. We now have 10 years worth of ACC moves to digest. Every move that was made since 2003 has been the worst possible outcome from how it affects UConn.

Got news for you. It's not just BC that doesn't want us in that league. They alone didn't mastermind a way to keep us out. They had plenty of sympathetic ears. I don't think John Swofford wants us in that league. I don't think Miami and their troll of a President want us. I don't think the football schools IE. FSU, Clemson, etc want us either. Don't think our "friends" up in Syracuse would be too supportive for us to join. Maybe it's the lawsuit. Maybe it's jealousy. Fear of competition. Or in some cases the football factories have bought the smears that we are an embarrassment in football and not worthy to join.

The fact our school even thought an invite would ever come from that league is disturbing. It is obvious. They not only don't want us, they want us eliminated. And it's not just BC.

I'm about 99% convinced that what you wrote is wrong.

It takes total dissonance to make these points in light of what we know, in light of all the articles about BC and DeFillippo, in light of reporting that Duke and North Carolina's Pres.'s were totally incredulous at BC's need to protect its turf, in light of open quotes to the media about academics by UNC's president, in light of FSU throwing an absolute fit and accusing Tobacco Road and Swofford of malfeasance (distributing football money equally while hoarding basketball money). The story is open and reported in the media. There was no mystery.

And it's just plain paranoid to think that ACC teams other than BC fear Uconn and want it eliminated. Until FSU played its football power game and threatened the others, there was support. It was a football decision. That's why Louisville got in. Not hatred.

 

[upstater]

A reporter with the Boston Globe did homework on this and wrote an article about it.

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/articles/2011/10/09/power_move_by_acc/

Can we put this idea to bed that BC didn't prevent us from getting into the ACC please?

And this happened again recently. Tobacco Road was now incredulous that BC would pull the same stunt with its new AD (post DeFillippo). Clearly, this is not the Flipper's idea, and this makes total sense given what Bob Ryan reported in 2003 about BC and UConn. BC is afraid to compete with UConn. And Tobacco Road is like, uh, we have 4 schools within one hour of each other. WTF are you so scared?

 

[Hoophound]

Syracuse was also against us this round. Anyone that denies they are scared is being ignorant. Even their own fans admit they are scared. We have eaten their lunch for 20 years and having at us at a severe disadvantage is an advantage to them. It is simple.

In regard to the four Carolina schools, they don't understand why BC and Cuse don't embrace competition because they thrive on it. However, I guarantee NC State and Wake fans have basically given up on being on par with Duke and UNC. Cuse is just behind us and they only need a little progress to catch back up. BC still remembers what it was like to be superior to us. Another 50 years of us dominating them and they might give up too.

 

[Inyatkin]

This is where I'm lost -- UConn and Pittsburgh filed a lawsuit against BC in 2003.

UConn and Pittsburgh. So when the ACC targeted Syracuse and UConn, BC does what it can to block us. But BC is OK with Pitt. Clearly, the lawsuit wasn't the issue, since Pitt sued too.

The competition thing doesn't make much sense either since, as noted above, the North Carolina schools are all right next to each other, so why would they buy BC's argument there?

So, what, we're left with being blocked because Jim Calhoun said mean things about BC?

 

[The Funster]

Some organizations rise to challenges and some do not. Cuse and BC are clearly in the latter category.

 

[upstater]

This is where I'm lost -- UConn and Pittsburgh filed a lawsuit against BC in 2003.

UConn and Pittsburgh. So when the ACC targeted Syracuse and UConn, BC does what it can to block us. But BC is OK with Pitt. Clearly, the lawsuit wasn't the issue, since Pitt sued too.

The competition thing doesn't make much sense either since, as noted above, the North Carolina schools are all right next to each other, so why would they buy BC's argument there?

So, what, we're left with being blocked because Jim Calhoun said mean things about BC?

It's not Calhoun either. We have inside scoops on our very own board of the types of things Syracuse people said about BC's honchos. So clearly, it's not about personal insults or animus either.

People arguing against this point-of-view should put themselves in BC or Syracuse's shoes: why would they ever want to admit that they'd rather not compete against UConn? That's a sign of weakness.

 

[frankthetank]

It's not about weakness. It's about business. The Duke/UNC/NC State/Wake geographic concentration in the ACC is a relic from the past. If only Duke and UNC were in the ACC while NC State and Wake were on the outside looking in stuck in the AAC, Duke and UNC would never throw them a lifeline. That simply would never happen in the conference realignment landscape of today, so comparing their setup that was built on short bus rides in the 1950s to what leagues are looking at today is disingenuous.

From my outside viewpoint, it's really not that complicated. BC and, maybe to a lesser extent, Syracuse simply want to own what they consider to be their territory from a power conference standpoint. To the extent that they think UConn might encroach into that territory, it makes 100% business sense to block them out. This is hardly unique either in conference realignment or the business world in general. I understand the frustration from a UConn fan standpoint, but if I were running BC, there's absolutely NFW that I'd want to let UConn into the ACC. It does BC no good whatsoever (despite the claims that "regional interest" could be enhanced). Being "scared" has little to do with it. USC and UCLA aren't going to let in San Diego State into the Pac-12, Ohio State isn't going to let Cincinnati into the Big Ten, and Florida won't even let a legit football power and actual rival Florida State into the SEC. Heck, I'm sure a lot of UConn fans don't even want UMass in the AAC based on the exact same rationale that BC is using against UConn. There's very little difference with the BC/Syracuse situation (as they look at the "Northeast" as their market as opposed to a state or a particular market area). They simply don't have an incentive to help out who they perceive to be a direct competitor. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it - I'm just saying that I can't see any very compelling reason for BC or Syracuse to budge if I was looking at it from their standpoints. It helps UConn out a LOT more than it helps them.

 

[upstater]

It's not about weakness. It's about business. The Duke/UNC/NC State/Wake geographic concentration in the ACC is a relic from the past. If only Duke and UNC were in the ACC while NC State and Wake were on the outside looking in stuck in the AAC, Duke and UNC would never throw them a lifeline. That simply would never happen in the conference realignment landscape of today, so comparing their setup that was built on short bus rides in the 1950s to what leagues are looking at today is disingenuous.

From my outside viewpoint, it's really not that complicated. BC and, maybe to a lesser extent, Syracuse simply want to own what they consider to be their territory from a power conference standpoint. To the extent that they think UConn might encroach into that territory, it makes 100% business sense to block them out. This is hardly unique either in conference realignment or the business world in general. I understand the frustration from a UConn fan standpoint, but if I were running BC, there's absolutely NFW that I'd want to let UConn into the ACC. It does BC no good whatsoever (despite the claims that "regional interest" could be enhanced). Being "scared" has little to do with it. USC and UCLA aren't going to let in San Diego State into the Pac-12, Ohio State isn't going to let Cincinnati into the Big Ten, and Florida won't even let a legit football power and actual rival Florida State into the SEC. Heck, I'm sure a lot of UConn fans don't even want UMass in the AAC based on the exact same rationale that BC is using against UConn. There's very little difference with the BC/Syracuse situation (as they look at the "Northeast" as their market as opposed to a state or a particular market area). They simply don't have an incentive to help out who they perceive to be a direct competitor. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it - I'm just saying that I can't see any very compelling reason for BC or Syracuse to budge if I was looking at it from their standpoints. It helps UConn out a LOT more than it helps them.

What you're missing is the history in the BE. BEFORE there was ACC expansion, BC was pissing and moaning about UConn. It's about weakness. It's about being afraid to compete. They lost 27 straight games to UConn basketball. This stuff was reported in the papers long before the ACC came calling. BC's fear especially has always been there.

 

[Marty Jackson]

It's not about weakness. It's about business. The Duke/UNC/NC State/Wake geographic concentration in the ACC is a relic from the past. If only Duke and UNC were in the ACC while NC State and Wake were on the outside looking in stuck in the AAC, Duke and UNC would never throw them a lifeline. That simply would never happen in the conference realignment landscape of today, so comparing their setup that was built on short bus rides in the 1950s to what leagues are looking at today is disingenuous.

From my outside viewpoint, it's really not that complicated. BC and, maybe to a lesser extent, Syracuse simply want to own what they consider to be their territory from a power conference standpoint. To the extent that they think UConn might encroach into that territory, it makes 100% business sense to block them out. This is hardly unique either in conference realignment or the business world in general. I understand the frustration from a UConn fan standpoint, but if I were running BC, there's absolutely NFW that I'd want to let UConn into the ACC. It does BC no good whatsoever (despite the claims that "regional interest" could be enhanced). Being "scared" has little to do with it. USC and UCLA aren't going to let in San Diego State into the Pac-12, Ohio State isn't going to let Cincinnati into the Big Ten, and Florida won't even let a legit football power and actual rival Florida State into the SEC. Heck, I'm sure a lot of UConn fans don't even want UMass in the AAC based on the exact same rationale that BC is using against UConn. There's very little difference with the BC/Syracuse situation (as they look at the "Northeast" as their market as opposed to a state or a particular market area). They simply don't have an incentive to help out who they perceive to be a direct competitor. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it - I'm just saying that I can't see any very compelling reason for BC or Syracuse to budge if I was looking at it from their standpoints. It helps UConn out a LOT more than it helps them.

people will look at this how they want, but it's the truth.
This happens all the time. How much did WVU block Marshall?

 

[zls44]

Heck, I'm sure a lot of UConn fans don't even want UMass in the AAC based on the exact same rationale that BC is using against UConn.

I am always amused by this, Frank.

 

[Marty Jackson]

What you're missing is the history in the BE. BEFORE there was ACC expansion, BC was pissing and moaning about UConn. It's about weakness. It's about being afraid to compete. They lost 27 straight games to UConn basketball. This stuff was reported in the papers long before the ACC came calling. BC's fear especially has always been there.

Yes... BC fears Uconn.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I am always amused by this, Frank.

I think most UConn fans don't want anything to do with UMass because they haven't been relevant in hoops in years and they are a transition FBS football program with no stadium.

I get the parallel, but UMass is nowhere near our level, while we have surpasses BC in basketball and would be well on our way in football if not for this conference BS.

Make no mistake, while obviously a sound business practice, BC has also made it personal. They are scared of UCONN.

 

[noeynox]

Well, what frank is saying is why the ACC is a bigger pipe dream than the B1G. People need to come to realization that UCONN is never going to the ACC barring mass defections. That isn't, looking likely. Whether that means UCONN should put on a full court press to try and get into the B1G or Big 12, accept its new fate as a mid major, or God forbid, go all nelsonmuntz, is personal preference. UCONN could have really benefited from having LEW Perkins here during the CR era. Instead we had status quo Jeff Hathaway and college presidents that were either more interested in retirement or their next job during the most crucial time in our athletic history.

 

[frankthetank]

What you're missing is the history in the BE. BEFORE there was ACC expansion, BC was pissing and moaning about UConn. It's about weakness. It's about being afraid to compete. They lost 27 straight games to UConn basketball. This stuff was reported in the papers long before the ACC came calling. BC's fear especially has always been there.

If you want to call it "fear", that's fine, but at the end of the day, if UConn is going to get much more upside from joining the ACC than BC and/or Syracuse would get from letting UConn in, why *wouldn't* they block UConn? That's like a McDonald's franchise owner actually inviting Burger King to open up a store right next door. There's an element of "fear" in that case that Burger King could take away business from McDonald's in that situation, and that fear is perfectly logical. So, why would you invite that fear next door and instead keep yourselves safe in a gated community? There could be personal and "fear"-based reasons why BC would block UConn from the ACC, but the ultimate conclusion is still perfectly logical from a business standpoint. Expecting entities to willingly act against their own self-interests in conference realignment (or business in general) simply isn't realistic.

 

[WestHartHusk]

If you want to call it "fear", that's fine, but at the end of the day, if UConn is going to get much more upside from joining the ACC than BC and/or Syracuse would get from letting UConn in, why *wouldn't* they block UConn? That's like a McDonald's franchise owner actually inviting Burger King to open up a store right next door. There's an element of "fear" in that case that Burger King could take away business from McDonald's in that situation, and that fear is perfectly logical. So, why would you invite that fear next door and instead keep yourselves safe in a gated community? There could be personal and "fear"-based reasons why BC would block UConn from the ACC, but the ultimate conclusion is still perfectly logical from a business standpoint. Expecting entities to willingly act against their own self-interests in conference realignment (or business in general) simply isn't realistic.

Except schools are non-profit entities, benefiting from generous tax conditions as a result. BK and McDonalds, well they arent. so unless you advocate repealing theirspecial status the analogy dorsnt hold, and in fact demonstrates the problem.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Agreed, let's look at the class above:

Knights

* Arizona State, Arkansas, Boise State, Boston College, BYU, Cal, Colorado, Georgia Tech, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas State, Maryland, Michigan State, Missouri, N.C. State, Oklahoma State, Ole Miss, Oregon State, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Stanford, Syracuse, South Carolina, TCU, Texas Tech, Utah, Virginia, Washington and Washington State.


We are a better program than: BC, Colorado, Pitt, Cuse, Washington State. Not really an excuse to move up, but we have been a better program since we joined the BCS. We've also beaten: MD, SCar, Virginia. Also not an excuse to move up, but it is an argument that we belong at the AQ level especially if you factor in our brief BCS existance and our committment to the FB program. (present leadership excluded)

The reason you are not "a better program" than Pitt or Syracuse, for instance, is because both Pitt and Syracuse have won national championships. Both have had Heisman trophy winners. Both have had dozens of players in the NFL, and many in the Hall of Fame.

It's what somebody else in this thread called "Old Money" - that's what makes a brand, that's what gets the casual viewer interested. What a team has done in the last 10 years isn't that relevant to its brand. Nobody thinks of Boise State when they have these discussions.

That's where UConn fits in - a brand new program that has had some on field success. But when your two bowl wins have come against Buffalo and a MAC school, well, that doesn't impress anyone. You guys were on a good initial trajectory, but you need another 10 to 20 years of success to move up in the prestige rankings. Look at Virginia Tech for a sense of how much further you've got to go. They've been putting up 10 win seasons for 20 years, have played in several BCS games, and they are in the second tier.

 

[upstater]

If you want to call it "fear", that's fine, but at the end of the day, if UConn is going to get much more upside from joining the ACC than BC and/or Syracuse would get from letting UConn in, why *wouldn't* they block UConn? That's like a McDonald's franchise owner actually inviting Burger King to open up a store right next door. There's an element of "fear" in that case that Burger King could take away business from McDonald's in that situation, and that fear is perfectly logical. So, why would you invite that fear next door and instead keep yourselves safe in a gated community? There could be personal and "fear"-based reasons why BC would block UConn from the ACC, but the ultimate conclusion is still perfectly logical from a business standpoint. Expecting entities to willingly act against their own self-interests in conference realignment (or business in general) simply isn't realistic.

Well, again, BC's fear of UConn was known prior to ACC expansion. I'm one of the ones who has ALWAYS been arguing that BC blocking UConn is a major factor in UConn not getting in. This has always been my point. I was just responding to your statement that it's not about weakness. It is. Because that weakness was there and was a huge concern long before ACC expansion was even broached. Bob Ryan expressed it succinctly when he said BC believes that UConn is going to dominate the region in football the way it did in basketball. This was maybe 2 or likelier three years before ACC expansion when he wrote that article.