ESPN series ranking the college programs who have produced the best NBA players

[intlzncster]

Well it helps to have about 30 McDonald's All Americans during that time frame.

Exactly. It's the old maxim: Coach K does less with more, while JC does more with less.

Also, I'm not sure how much they (most of them) develop as individuals over their time at Duke. They do learn how to play in the framework of Duke basketball and get better at that over their normal 3-4 years.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Exactly. It's the old maxim: Coach K does less with more, while JC does more with less.

Also, I'm not sure how much they (most of them) develop as individuals over their time at Duke. They do learn how to play in the framework of Duke basketball and get better at that over their normal 3-4 years.

to be fair jc got aa too

 

[gtcam]

While I despise dook, I have to concede they do produce NBA players. They may not make headlines but they do know how to milk the pedigree for a few seasons. Coach K produces team concept players, playing within their limitations (i.e. role), which helps longevity. After all he does know about coaching and player development (not necessarily NBA development) but players do seem to leave better than they came in.

Note: Please forgive me for defending them, it won't happen again.

For the amount of top 100 players they get year after year they have well under produced in the NBA mid-high rated players.

 

[Chin Diesel]

How many players has Coach K put in the NBA who wasn't a burger AA?

 

[Sky ball]

How many players has Coach K put in the NBA who wasn't a burger AA?

That is good question I would like an answer to. Anyone?

 

[UC990411]

How many players has Coach K put in the NBA who wasn't a burger AA?

Another way to look at it is how many Duke recruits are named to the burger game just because they commit to Duke?

 

[champs99and04]

I'm as big a proponent of Calhoun being considered K's equal as anyone, but diminishing K's accomplishments because he gets McDonald's All-Americans is dumb. He's a fantastic developer of talent.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm as big a proponent of Calhoun being considered K's equal as anyone, but diminishing K's accomplishments because he gets McDonald's All-Americans is dumb. He's a fantastic developer of talent.

That's the point. I don't actually think he's a great developer of talent. I think he's a very, very good coach, who knows how to make a group of kids play well together, be team first, and play exceedingly hard (and hug). That's his skill set. But making better basketball players? He's closer to average in that department imo.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

That's the point. I don't actually think he's a great developer of talent. I think he's a very, very good coach, who knows how to make a group of kids play well together, be team first, and play exceedingly hard (and hug). That's his skill set. But making better basketball players? He's closer to average in that department imo.

Yeah, Coach K is an average developer of talent. You realize how ridiculous that sounds?

The guy has the most wins in NCAA history.
The guy has four national titles.
He has his team in contention every single season.

There is absolutely nothing about K that is close to average... except Final 4 games against Calhoun!

 

[mauconnfan]

Yeah, Coach K is an average developer of talent. You realize how ridiculous that sounds?

The guy has the most wins in NCAA history.
The guy has four national titles.
He has his team in contention every single season.

There is absolutely nothing about K that is close to average... except Final 4 games against Calhoun!

Not sure you can prove otherwise despite how it sounds CHB? Developing from McD's AA and developing from Top 150 are worlds apart....he's a great coach but there's plenty of names coming from the program who would seem to prove he has a history of marginal improvement if at all....it could be on the kids themselves I guess?

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah, Coach K is an average developer of talent. You realize how ridiculous that sounds?

The guy has the most wins in NCAA history.
The guy has four national titles.
He has his team in contention every single season.

There is absolutely nothing about K that is close to average... except Final 4 games against Calhoun!

All those points point to the fact that he can get guys to play together and coach a team as well as anyone in America. Look just because you are good at one skill in coaching, doesn't mean you are good at others. So you think Calipari is a good developer of talent too? He's got 3 final fours (ok really 1), and one National Championship. Is he a great developer of talent? Hell no. He can certainly coach a team, especially of studs, which is a talent in and of itself. But, in general, he doesn't put guys in the league. They are already on their way when they get there.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I'm as big a proponent of Calhoun being considered K's equal as anyone, but diminishing K's accomplishments because he gets McDonald's All-Americans is dumb. He's a fantastic developer of talent.

He is an all-time great coach, but not a great developer of talent. His rosters are loaded every year, but how many pan out at the pro-level. Knight was a great developer of talent. So was Coach and I believe Izzo is too. But K....not so much.

 

[Inyatkin]

Back to Michigan State, this was tweeted out by ESPN today:
"Payne, Harris, Appling, or Dawson...who is Izzo's next great NBA player?"

The implication being that there's somehow been a long line of them. Izzo is a great winner in college, but his NBA output is poor. ESPN feels the need to pretend otherwise.

 

[Mike Honcho]

All those points point to the fact that he can get guys to play together and coach a team as well as anyone in America. Look just because you are good at one skill in coaching, doesn't mean you are good at others. So you think Calipari is a good developer of talent too? He's got 3 final fours (ok really 1), and one National Championship. Is he a great developer of talent? Hell no. He can certainly coach a team, especially of studs, which is a talent in and of itself. But, in general, he doesn't put guys in the league. They are already on their way when they get there.

Had Kobe went to Duke instead of straight to the NBA as is widely speculated, ConnHuskBask's logic would assign his talent development to Coach K.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

That's the point. I don't actually think he's a great developer of talent. I think he's a very, very good coach, who knows how to make a group of kids play well together, be team first, and play exceedingly hard (and hug). That's his skill set. But making better basketball players? He's closer to average in that department imo.

I'm just going to point out that you're talking about the guy who might very well go down as the greatest college basketball coach of all time, and if he's not #1 he's probably 1(a) and certainly - certainly - the best of his generation. You don't get to be that guy by giving good pep-talks and having the market on minimally athletic white guys cornered. And you don't get to be that guy by being "average" at anything. Some of you guys should go in on a table at the next player hater's ball.

 

[intlzncster]

Had Kobe went to Duke instead of straight to the NBA as is widely speculated, ConnHuskBask's logic would assign his talent development to Coach K.

No he would have been considered similar to a John Wall.

(this is a joke, no?)

 

[intlzncster]

I'm just going to point out that you're talking about the guy who might very well go down as the greatest college basketball coach of all time, and if he's not #1 he's probably 1(a) and certainly - certainly - the best of his generation. You don't get to be that guy by giving good pep-talks and having the market on minimally athletic white guys cornered. And you don't get to be that guy by being "average" at anything. Some of you guys should go in on a table at the next player hater's ball.

Of course you can get to be that guy by being average at some things. Because no coach is great at everything, not even Phil Jackson. I'll still take Wooden over K any time. Probably have to split modern era vs oldschool guys though; I think that should be done in all sports/comparisons actually.

Just because he might arguably be the best coach of all time, doesn't mean he's the best or even just good at all the individual skills of coaching. That's like saying he's one of if not the best coach of all time at recruiting, teaching fundamentals, coaching rebounding, in game coaching, stewarding a program, building a program, coaching in a tournament, developing talent, instilling team mentality and play, imposing his will on the team....etc. Obviously this is patently untrue.

For example, guys like Calhoun, Tarkanian...and maybe even lesser coaches like Billy Donavon and Jamie Dixon, are superior developers of talent than coach K.

And I'll tell you this, in a dogfight, I'd take JC over Coach K 100 times out of 100. Methinks I'd win a strong majority.

fwiw, I don't hate K at all. He amuses me. One thing I respect about K is that his teams always, and I mean always, play hard. More so than JC and UConn. I believe JC is better at imposing his will on the team, but K's group plays consistently harder night-in, night-out. JC is a better tourney coach imo.

 

[champs99and04]

That's the point. I don't actually think he's a great developer of talent. I think he's a very, very good coach, who knows how to make a group of kids play well together, be team first, and play exceedingly hard (and hug). That's his skill set. But making better basketball players? He's closer to average in that department imo.

Is he as great a developer of talent as Calhoun? No, but Calhoun is one of the best developers of talent ever, at any level. K is still, if not elite, pretty close to it in that department, imo. The facts are, Duke currently has the most kids in the NBA - this is not because K is head and shoulders above everybody else in terms of recruiting. In fact, Howland, Barnes, Williams, and Calipari have all displayed greater potency on the recruiting trail at one time or another. K is not of the Calipari mold, in that he doesn't simply sign half of the top ten every year, but rather he signs a couple of McDonald's All-Americans and mixes them in with top 50 type players who figure to stick around at least a couple years. Obviously, there are inherent advantages to coaching at Duke, and that's one of the reasons he's put so many players in the NBA. But you don't put as many players in the NBA as he has if you're just rolling the ball out and letting them play. Keep in mind, the bulk of K's coaching career took place before the one & done era, when players routinely stuck around for 3 or 4 years. You had to develop players back then, and your players had to show marked improvements every year, otherwise they wouldn't be as coveted by GM's, and that would have a ripple down effect on the desire of future recruits to play for you.

Duke has put at least a few studs in the NBA, moreso than UConn even - Grant Hill and Elton Brand were bonafide superstars in their heyday, Corey Maggette, Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer were/are all-star caliber players in their prime, Battier has morphed into one of the best role players ever, and guys like Latener, Redick, Ferry, and likely many more I'm omitting have gone onto have respectable careers. That's without including Kyrie Irving, who's on the path to stardom, and Jay Williams, who could have very well gotten there without his horrific injury.

Look, the K love in the media does get tiresome, but a lot of it is warranted. The narrative that he "doesn't develop talent all that well" around here just doesn't seem to add up.

 

[intlzncster]

Is he as great a developer of talent as Calhoun? No, but Calhoun is one of the best developers of talent ever, at any level. K is still, if not elite, pretty close to it in that department, imo. The facts are, Duke currently has the most kids in the NBA - this is not because K is head and shoulders above everybody else in terms of recruiting. In fact, Howland, Barnes, Williams, and Calipari have all displayed greater potency on the recruiting trail at one time or another.

Dude, since 1980, K has signed 49(!) McDonald's All Americans. Now you can argue if getting recruited by Duke puts them in that game, but Duke signs a top 5-10 class nearly every year. Fact is Duke is a top 3-5 recruiting school.

K is not of the Calipari mold, in that he doesn't simply sign half of the top ten every year, but rather he signs a couple of McDonald's All-Americans and mixes them in with top 50 type players who figure to stick around at least a couple years.

Calipari has only gotten Top 10 every year since being at UK. Maybe once at Memphis?

Obviously, there are inherent advantages to coaching at Duke, and that's one of the reasons he's put so many players in the NBA. But you don't put as many players in the NBA as he has if you're just rolling the ball out and letting them play.

I didn't say he rolled the ball out. I think he teaches team dynamics like no other. That's also why, given the number of incoming studs and the number of NBA'ers that Duke's produced, there haven't been too many home runs. His team teaching is better than his individual teaching.

Keep in mind, the bulk of K's coaching career took place before the one & done era, when players routinely stuck around for 3 or 4 years. You had to develop players back then, and your players had to show marked improvements every year, otherwise they wouldn't be as coveted by GM's, and that would have a ripple down effect on the desire of future recruits to play for you.

The hype factor was just as big back then. It was all about measurables. Why Sam Bowie got picked over Jordan. GMs were likely to take kids from good schools too. Again, measuring players' effectiveness and ability by NBA GMs evaluatory skills is a mugs game imo.

Duke has put at least a few studs in the NBA, moreso than UConn even - Grant Hill and Elton Brand were bonafide superstars in their heyday, Corey Maggette, Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer were/are all-star caliber players in their prime, Battier has morphed into one of the best role players ever, and guys like Latener, Redick, Ferry, and likely many more I'm omitting have gone onto have respectable careers. That's without including Kyrie Irving, who's on the path to stardom, and Jay Williams, who could have very well gotten there without his horrific injury.

As I said earlier, guys like Reddick worked their way into solid players; he definitely wasn't when he first got in the league. That's all on JJ, not on Coach K. Irving was going to be a stud if he went to East Allegheny State. He's a Calipari type.

We've got a long list too. Do they have any hall of famers? We got Ray Allen. We've got all stars in Caron, Rudy, Ben Gordon, Donyell (I think), and Uncle Cliffy. Solid role players Emeka, Ollie, Travis and even Jake. And hopefully future allstars in Kemba and Drummond. Maybe get something out of Lamb too.

Look, the K love in the media does get tiresome, but a lot of it is warranted. The narrative that he "doesn't develop talent all that well" around here just doesn't seem to add up.

K just doesn't compare to at least 10 (?) other coaches in the country during his era imo.

 

[UC990411]

Dude, since 1980, K has signed 49(!) McDonald's All Americans. Now you can argue if getting recruited by Duke puts them in that game, but Duke signs a top 5-10 class nearly every year. Fact is Duke is a top 3-5 recruiting school.




Calipari has only gotten Top 10 every year since being at UK. Maybe once at Memphis?





I didn't say he rolled the ball out. I think he teaches team dynamics like no other. That's also why, given the number of incoming studs and the number of NBA'ers that Duke's produced, there haven't been too many home runs. His team teaching is better than his individual teaching.




The hype factor was just as big back then. It was all about measurables. Why Sam Bowie got picked over Jordan. GMs were likely to take kids from good schools too. Again, measuring players' effectiveness and ability by NBA GMs evaluatory skills is a mugs game imo.



As I said earlier, guys like Reddick worked their way into solid players; he definitely wasn't when he first got in the league. That's all on JJ, not on Coach K. Irving was going to be a stud if he went to East Allegheny State. He's a Calipari type.

We've got a long list too. Do they have any hall of famers? We got Ray Allen. We've got all stars in Caron, Rudy, Ben Gordon, Donyell (I think), and Uncle Cliffy. Solid role players Emeka, Ollie, Travis and even Jake. And hopefully future allstars in Kemba and Drummond. Maybe get something out of Lamb too.




K just doesn't compare to at least 10 (?) other coaches in the country during his era imo.

Ok, so you're saying you don't like Duke?

 

[intlzncster]

Ok, so you're saying you don't like Duke?

Well, I certainly don't like Duke, but I think I've also praised K a fair bit in this thread. People seem to think if you criticize K at all, you are in the wrong. He's not good at everything. Period.

Pretty hard to argue that Duke doesn't get one of the top classes year in year out. And if you get one of the top classes, and you can coach, you should win a butt load of games. It ain't difficult.

 

[champs99and04]

Dude, since 1980, K has signed 49(!) McDonald's All Americans. Now you can argue if getting recruited by Duke puts them in that game, but Duke signs a top 5-10 class nearly every year. Fact is Duke is a top 3-5 recruiting school.




Calipari has only gotten Top 10 every year since being at UK. Maybe once at Memphis?





I didn't say he rolled the ball out. I think he teaches team dynamics like no other. That's also why, given the number of incoming studs and the number of NBA'ers that Duke's produced, there haven't been too many home runs. His team teaching is better than his individual teaching.




The hype factor was just as big back then. It was all about measurables. Why Sam Bowie got picked over Jordan. GMs were likely to take kids from good schools too. Again, measuring players' effectiveness and ability by NBA GMs evaluatory skills is a mugs game imo.



As I said earlier, guys like Reddick worked their way into solid players; he definitely wasn't when he first got in the league. That's all on JJ, not on Coach K. Irving was going to be a stud if he went to East Allegheny State. He's a Calipari type.

We've got a long list too. Do they have any hall of famers? We got Ray Allen. We've got all stars in Caron, Rudy, Ben Gordon, Donyell (I think), and Uncle Cliffy. Solid role players Emeka, Ollie, Travis and even Jake. And hopefully future allstars in Kemba and Drummond. Maybe get something out of Lamb too.




K just doesn't compare to at least 10 (?) other coaches in the country during his era imo.

Point one - I'm aware K has had a s*** load of McDonald's All-Americans grace the Duke campus over the years. They're undoubtedly a recruiting juggernaut, I was just saying they've never been head and shoulders above the field, like UK is now. It's a testament to K's ability to develop talent that Duke has so many guys in the NBA, McDonald's All-American or not.

Point two - Yeah, I was talking about his time at UK.

Point three - I know you didn't, I was exaggerating to make a point. I agree with you on your point - K might be the best ever alongside Wooden in teaching the finer aspects of team basketball and generally inspiring kids to sacrifice for the greater good. That's not to say he isn't also a tremendous developer of talent, though.

Point four - I probably worded that wrong, my point was K wouldn't have produced so many high caliber NBA players if they didn't develop while they were in college.

Point five - Even the most talented of players coming out of high school can benefit from quality college coaching. Obviously there is a significant gap between making AJ Price an NBA player and making Kyrie Irving an NBA player, but I'm sure Irving would be the first to tell you he got a hell of a lot better in his one year at Duke. Would he have been a star regardless of where he went? Probably, but there's no way to tell for sure.

Point six - Neither Rudy or Ben was ever an all-star. I suppose it depends on your perspective regarding whether you believe Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer - does his brilliance in the begginning stage of his career push him in, or does the mediocrity (caused by injuries) in the latter half of his career keep him out? I'm not sure it matters in the context of our conversation. Also, how can you take credit for guys like Rudy and Drummond when you don't give Duke and UK credit for their star recruits? You could easily play the "Rudy and Andre would have been stars regardless of where they went to school" card as well.

 

[superjohn]

Point one - I'm aware K has had a s* load of McDonald's All-Americans grace the Duke campus over the years. They're undoubtedly a recruiting juggernaut, I was just saying they've never been head and shoulders above the field, like UK is now. It's a testament to K's ability to develop talent that Duke has so many guys in the NBA, McDonald's All-American or not.

Point two - Yeah, I was talking about his time at UK.

Point three - I know you didn't, I was exaggerating to make a point. I agree with you on your point - K might be the best ever alongside Wooden in teaching the finer aspects of team basketball and generally inspiring kids to sacrifice for the greater good. That's not to say he isn't also a tremendous developer of talent, though.

Point four - I probably worded that wrong, my point was K wouldn't have produced so many high caliber NBA players if they didn't develop while they were in college.

Point five - Even the most talented of players coming out of high school can benefit from quality college coaching. Obviously there is a significant gap between making AJ Price an NBA player and making Kyrie Irving an NBA player, but I'm sure Irving would be the first to tell you he got a hell of a lot better in his one year at Duke. Would he have been a star regardless of where he went? Probably, but there's no way to tell for sure.

Point six - Neither Rudy or Ben was ever an all-star. I suppose it depends on your perspective regarding whether you believe Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer - does his brilliance in the begginning stage of his career push him in, or does the mediocrity (caused by injuries) in the latter half of his career keep him out? I'm not sure it matters in the context of our conversation. Also, how can you take credit for guys like Rudy and Drummond when you don't give Duke and UK credit for their star recruits? You could easily play the "Rudy and Andre would have been stars regardless of where they went to school" card as well.

Grant Hill as a Hall of Famer, where the hell did that come from? Grant Hill is not a Hall of Famer by any stretch.

 

[bobbygt]

JC is to me is what Jesus is to many of you.

And I think that JC is one of the greatest mbb coaches of all time.

BUT, just because some of these guys were selected to the McD all-star team does not mean they really are the best players and the ones who are automatically destined for the nba. I don't think the star rankings are bogus and a lot of the guys on the McD teams are really good.

Look at some of Duke's McD players since 2000:

2000 Chris Duhon
2001 Daniel Ewing
2002 Sean Dockery
2002 J.J. Redick
2002 Shavlik Randolph
2002 Michael Thompson
2003 Luol Deng
2004 Demarcus Nelson
2005 Greg Paulus
2005 Josh McRoberts
2005 Eric Boateng
2006 Gerald Henderson
2006 Jon Scheyer
2006 Lance Thomas
2007 Taylor King
2007 Kyle Singler
2007 Nolan Smith
2008 Elliot Williams
2009 Mason Plumlee
2009 Ryan Kelly
2010 Kyrie Irving

Out of this list there are only about 3 surefire NBA guys: Irving, Henderson, Deng (you could maybe add Duhon, Singler and Reddick to the list).

Now, compare these guys to some of Uconn's non McD NBA players: Caron, Gordon, Emeka, Boone, Hilton, AJ, Adrien, HT, Lamb.

I'm not saying that K could've made Hilton and HT into NBA players, but I know that I damn well can't say that JC could've made Michael Thompson (who the heck is that?), Lance Thomas, Greg Paulus, Eric Boateng, or Taylor King into NBA players either.

I think what JC has over K is that he sees better talent and is a better developer, but he has few peers. Coach K is a really good coach, though.

 

[champs99and04]

Grant Hill as a Hall of Famer, where the hell did that come from? Grant Hill is not a Hall of Famer by any stretch.

It's ignorant to completely dismiss him. His numbers in his first seven seasons are on par with those of LeBron, Magic, and Oscar. His legendary first seven years in addition to his ability to lynch on as a useful role player after his injury and his storied college career at least make it a conversation.