ESPN series ranking the college programs who have produced the best NBA players

[Gurleyman]

Grant Hill probably makes it. He was the first person to really make the point forward position a real thing. Injuries kept his career numbers lower than they could have been.

 

[superjohn]

It's ignorant to completely dismiss him. His numbers in his first seven seasons are on par with those of LeBron, Magic, and Oscar. His legendary first seven years in addition to his ability to lynch on as a useful role player after his injury and his storied college career at least make it a conversation.

Holy moley Grant Hill's numbers in his first 7 seasons are on par with Lebron, Magic and Oscar....dude that's just wrong. Grant Hill hasn't exactly done much the past decade and has never won a playoff series until very late in his career as a Sun. You don't make the Hall of Fame as a small forward who hasn't won anything and only averaged like 16 ppg for your career.

 

[Gurleyman]

He was routinely putting up seasons like 23-9-7 before injuries sidetracked him. He played a long time out of his prime, which weighs down his career averages. It is also the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame, so his college success will factor in.

 

[superjohn]

Grant Hill probably makes it. He was the first person to really make the point forward position a real thing. Injuries kept his career numbers lower than they could have been.

The first to make the point forward a real thing, what does that mean? What exactly were Marques Johnson, Rick Barry, Paul Pressey, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen etc.?

 

[superjohn]

He was routinely putting up seasons like 23-9-7 before injuries sidetracked him. He played a long time out of his prime, which weighs down his career averages. It is also the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame, so his college success will factor in.

That's almost always taken into account with foreign legends like Arvydas and Ginobili, not a guy who won it at an American College.

 

[champs99and04]

Holy moley Grant Hill's numbers in his first 7 seasons are on par with Lebron, Magic and Oscar....dude that's just wrong. Grant Hill hasn't exactly done much the past decade and has never won a playoff series until very late in his career as a Sun. You don't make the Hall of Fame as a small forward who hasn't won anything and only averaged like 16 ppg for your career.

Seven time all-star, two time national champ, ROY, five time all-NBA, top ten in PER four times, etc. There are valid reasons to keep him out, but he also has the credentials to be seriously considered.

 

[superjohn]

No matter how you slice it I just can't see Hill as a Hall of Famer, he put up great stats early in his career on some really bad teams and injuries ruined him. The 5 time all-NBA is nice but he only made 1st team once. I really think it cheapens the Hall if Grant Hill was elected. Winning championships isn't the end all be all in my opinion but you have to have some playoff success or memorable moments, Hill has nothing.

 

[intlzncster]

Point six - Neither Rudy or Ben was ever an all-star. I suppose it depends on your perspective regarding whether you believe Grant Hill is a Hall of Famer - does his brilliance in the begginning stage of his career push him in, or does the mediocrity (caused by injuries) in the latter half of his career keep him out? I'm not sure it matters in the context of our conversation. Also, how can you take credit for guys like Rudy and Drummond when you don't give Duke and UK credit for their star recruits? You could easily play the "Rudy and Andre would have been stars regardless of where they went to school" card as well.

I'll concede the Drummond point, and even rudy, who was highly rated, but not number 1. BG really wasn't an allstar at least one year? I'm shocked. For a while there, he was the dogs balls.

 

[champs99and04]

I'll concede the Drummond point, and even rudy, who was highly rated, but not number 1. BG really wasn't an allstar at least one year? I'm shocked. For a while there, he was the dogs balls.

No, though he did place second in ROY voting and win sixth man of the year in the 04/05 season. He also averaged over 20 a game on 45/41/88 shooting splits from 07 to 09, so I assume he must have at least come close some years (as did Rudy).

It's a mystery to me what's happened to his career. Hopefully he'll find his niche again soon.

 

[Gurleyman]

The first to make the point forward a real thing, what does that mean? What exactly were Marques Johnson, Rick Barry, Paul Pressey, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen etc.?

Someone like Larry Bird was certainly a great passer at the forward position, but he didn't play like a point guard. He was a guy who operated from the wing and made people pay for double teams. Pippen tended to play off Jordan, making plays against defenses that were broken down. He sometimes played like a point and ran some plays here and there, but it wasn't like he was in charge of the show. That was the other guy in the 23 shirt. Pressey was a 6-5 two guard who could pass.

Hill was different in that he was legitimately the sole initiator of the offense for his team for large segments of games - running everything, getting isolated in 1-4 sets, or getting high screens as he broke the defense down, and continually doing it. He wasn't slashing from the wing and making great passes, or playing off the ball and taking advantage of a scrambling defense. He was at the point. In his brief, uninjured prime, he played like Isiah Thomas, only as a 6-8 forward. Or like Derrick Rose does now. He was on the verge of becoming a transformative figure in the league strategically - someone who you had to develop particular schemes to try to stop.

He could be left out because he hurt too soon in his career to put up big numbers. Looking more thoroughly at his stats, I'm less convinced then I was at first writing. I was going off my memory of people trying to deal with the nightmare of defending him in his prime. His prime might have been cut short too soon to get in, especially without ever getting his Detroit teams out of the first round.

 

[progrocks]

cheapens the hall? have you ever noticed who gets into that thing, it is hardly the NFL Hall of Fame. I wouldnt be surprised if there were some ball boys enshrined up in Springfield.

No matter how you slice it I just can't see Hill as a Hall of Famer, he put up great stats early in his career on some really bad teams and injuries ruined him. The 5 time all-NBA is nice but he only made 1st team once. I really think it cheapens the Hall if Grant Hill was elected. Winning championships isn't the end all be all in my opinion but you have to have some playoff success or memorable moments, Hill has nothing.

 

[ihatepants]

That's almost always taken into account with foreign legends like Arvydas and Ginobili, not a guy who won it at an American College.

You don't know what you're talking about. It's the basketball hall of fame, not NBA hall of fame. The basketball hall of fame definitely takes college (and international) success into account when deciding who gets in or not. I didn't even look that far, but of the recent inductees whose play in college (and Olympics) had a role in their induction into the hall: Chris Mullin, Ralph Sampson, and Jamaal Wilkes.

That said, I think Grant Hill will make the Hall.

 

[ihatepants]

Other factors in Grant Hill's favor for induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame:

NBA co-Rookie of the Year (1995)
7× NBA All-Star (1995–1998, 2000–2001, 2005)
All-NBA First Team (1997)
4× All-NBA Second Team (1996, 1998–2000)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1995)
3× NBA Sportsmanship Award (2005, 2008, 2010)
2× NCAA champion (1991–1992)
ACC Player of the Year (1994)
NABC Defensive Player of the Year (1993)
Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1994)
Consensus NCAA All-American Second Team (1993)

• There aren't many players that went to at least 7 all-star games and aren't in the HOF. (Only two that are eligible and not in: Jojo White and Jack Sickma)
• He was able to play regularly despite passing his prime and had a long 19-year career.
• His PER among guards/forwards for that time was second only to Jordan, and his total WS is second only to Reggie Miller.
• His numbers for the first few seasons of his career came during an era where wing players weren't as emphasized as they are today. And during this time, he was arguably the best player at his position. He was definitely better than Chris Mullin, Glen Rice and Detlef Schrempf. When he is eventually eligible for the hall, he'll probably be the best one available at his position. There weren't many very good SFs from the 90s.
• In pure career win-shares, his closest comparison is Chris Mullin, who's already in.
• His age 22-27 years were among the 10 best by a swingman since the introduction of the 3 point line.

• After all his injuries and reinventing his game to become a defense-first off the ball wing who complemented Steve Nash by making smart cuts and spacing the floor with shots from the short corners, Grant became one of the most effective and productive veteran swing men ever towards the end of his career.

 

[Jerry1714]

Its the Basketball Hall of Fame, not NBA Hall of Fame. Grant Hill is a hall of famer.

 

[HooperScooper]

Wow, Kansas is only 14th.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85304/path-to-the-draft-no-14-kansas

They've had a gazillion McDonald's All Americans so you'd think they'd be higher. They have quantity but not a lot of quality.

 

[arnie3]

That is a surprise considering the amount of players that have gone to the NBA from Kansas since 1989 (34). But it's probably pretty accurate since out of the 34, only one (Paul Pierce) has put up superstar numbers. If any of the upcoming players (Wiggins/Selden) live up to hype, then the Jayhawks move up.

 

[Marat]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/path-to-the-draft-2013

They are currently at #9 - Wake Forest. I thought they might have been ranked higher with Duncan and C Paul. But they don't have much going on after those.

Based on our "depth" and quality, I still expect to see UConn in the top #5.

 

[specialisthusky]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/path-to-the-draft-2013

They are currently at #9 - Wake Forest. I thought they might have been ranked higher with Duncan and C Paul. But they don't have much going on after those.

Based on our "depth" and quality, I still expect to see UConn in the top #5.

I agree.

UK, Duke, UNC, Georgetown and Arizona are the only teams who's arguments I'd entertain to be ahead of UConn. I expect UConn to be ahead of atleast Arizona and potentially UK.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

I agree.

UK, Duke, UNC, Georgetown and Arizona are the only teams who's arguments I'd entertain to be ahead of UConn. I expect UConn to be ahead of atleast Arizona and potentially UK.

Georgetown?? Crazy. ESPN made a list of underachieving programs for producing pros and they were on it.

 

[specialisthusky]

Georgetown?? Crazy. ESPN made a list of underachieving programs for producing pros and they were on it.

Iverson, Mutumbo, Mourning, and Green has to put them up there near the top 5. That list measured results in relation to pros if I am thinking of the same one.

 

[Brochacho]

I agree.

UK, Duke, UNC, Georgetown and Arizona are the only teams who's arguments I'd entertain to be ahead of UConn. I expect UConn to be ahead of atleast Arizona and potentially UK.

Watch out for UCLA.

Afflalo, Ariza, Barnes, Collison, Davis, Farmar, Holiday, Hollins, Honeycutt, Lee, Love, Mbah a Moute, Watson, and Westbrook.

14 active players (not sure if Davis still is) and some well-known guys.

 

[BearJWS]

Georgetown?? Crazy. ESPN made a list of underachieving programs for producing pros and they were on it.

I think you missed a key sentence in that article: "Here are eight schools who have made underachieving a trend in March despite touting rosters stocked with NBA-caliber talent. "

Georgetown: Yes, the Hoyas are just months removed from winning a Big East title. And it was only six seasons ago that John Thompson III’s squad advanced to the 2007 Final Four. Still, this list is based largely on postseason accomplishments, and no one can argue that, overall, Georgetown has been a disappointment in March. That aforementioned Final Four berth was the Hoyas’ first since 1985 -- and they haven’t advanced to the NCAA tournament’s second weekend since. Even worse is that their past five tournament losses are to Davidson, Ohio, VCU, NC State and Florida Gulf Coast (as a No. 2 seed). That’s an ugly mark on a program that boasts recent alumni such as Greg Monroe, Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert and Otto Porter.

 

[Rico444]

Iverson, Mutumbo, Mourning, and Green has to put them up there near the top 5. That list measured results in relation to pros if I am thinking of the same one.

Don't forget Roy Hibbert.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Iverson, Mutumbo, Mourning, and Green has to put them up there near the top 5. That list measured results in relation to pros if I am thinking of the same one.

Isn't the list on players drafted after 89? If so Ewing is gone. And even with him, is still take our list any day.

 

[BearJWS]

Don't forget Roy Hibbert.

There's been tons of other GTown players in the NBA... Greg Monroe, Othella Harrington, Jerome Williams, Don Reid, DuJuan Summers, Mike Sweetney, Jahidi White, Jaren Jackson, Charles Smith (Guard, not the Pitt player)... I'm sure there are a few others.