Duke launches investigation into possible player mistreatment

[caramel]

It wasn't hard at all. I had forgotten that your standards are much higher for non-Husky fans when posting on here.

Wow,I didn't know,as a Husky fan,I got lower standards.I confess,though,that I do like New Mexico's teams,so I guess my standards should be somewhat higher then>

 

[pinotbear]

Wow,I didn't know,as a Husky fan,I got lower standards.I confess,though,that I do like New Mexico's teams,so I guess my standards should be somewhat higher then>

Your standards are certainly higher for scenic beauty. While I"m a nutmegger, born and bred, and certainly find beauty in the state, I love visiting New Mexico. I find New Mexico to be simply stunning.

 

[meyers7]

You made my day. Gave me hope for this place.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

As far as the specifics involved at Nebraska and Duke - of course lawyers are involved and whatever findings they come to are seldom to the level of 'cause' in terms of employment and the breaking of a contract, and the cost of defending a contract termination for 'cause' both in legal fees and PR hits is seldom worth it - hence almost every contract termination that is not clear cut includes significant buy-out provisions. We have no idea what the Duke investigation will come up with, and we have no idea what the Nebraska investigation results were. At Nebraska it is clear that at least one player felt the accusations were unfounded and has chosen to leave partly because of the rift created within the team and the resignation of a coach she liked.

This is what I do not understand in the Duke situation. Are they using Nebraska as a blue print to be rid of Coach P. Quite a blueprint - Nebraska paying 1.3 or 1.5 million,depending on the news source, after starting a process that was guaranteed to hurt. This suggests to me that the Admin. at Duke is divided and someone heavily invested in Coach P has dug their heels in in support of this loser.

 

[UcMiami]

This is what I do not understand in the Duke situation. Are they using Nebraska as a blue print to be rid of Coach P. Quite a blueprint - Nebraska paying 1.3 or 1.5 million,depending on the news source, after starting a process that was guaranteed to hurt. This suggests to me that the Admin. at Duke is divided and someone heavily invested in Coach P has dug their heels in in support of this loser.

I think the other options is much simpler - they have received complaints from multiple sources and find them credible enough that they have no choice but to investigate. I don't think it need be a 'political' situation at all, just a matter of proper procedures with no ulterior motive to justify retaining or firing JPM.
And my understanding is that that was the situation at Nebraska - the end result was a 'settlement' resignation, but I doubt that was the plan the administration had when the complaints were first made that prompted the investigation.

 

[Charliebball]

I'm not sure if everyone is aware of this one......I kind of remember it from a while ago.......

The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign reached a proposed agreement with former women’s basketball student-athletes who had filed a lawsuit against the university. The students alleged racial discrimination and mistreatment that included verbal and emotional abuse from coaches. Associate coach Mike Divilbis left the program in May 2015 but head coach Mike Bollant remains at Illinois.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

find them credible enough that they have no choice but to investigate.

As opposed to those multiple complaints a few years ago, with very public, racially tinged allegations. You know, before ND came along and ended the lock, albeit apparently ceremonial trips to the NCAA etc. Nope, somebody's collar got tight and it became a case of her or me and that landed it in HR. Pure conjecture, but your scenario is too clean to be true. Lots of alumni pressure and White could not defend her anymore.

 

[UcMiami]

As opposed to those multiple complaints a few years ago, with very public, racially tinged allegations. You know, before ND came along and ended the lock, albeit apparently ceremonial trips to the NCAA etc. Nope, somebody's collar got tight and it became a case of her or me and that landed it in HR. Pure conjecture, but your scenario is too clean to be true. Lots of alumni pressure and White could not defend her anymore.

The complaints leveled a few years ago were as far as I know external - specifically from a not disinterested party from the Philadelphia area and I believe driven partly from an initial unwillingness to grant a general release. It would be interesting to know (and probably unknowable) whether there were any complaints lodged by players on the roster at that time.

 

[LesMis89]

I'm not sure if everyone is aware of this one.I kind of remember it from a while ago..

The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign reached a proposed agreement with former women’s basketball student-athletes who had filed a lawsuit against the university. The students alleged racial discrimination and mistreatment that included verbal and emotional abuse from coaches. Associate coach Mike Divilbis left the program in May 2015 but head coach Mike Bollant remains at Illinois.

Already mentioned - Check posts #68 by CoCoHusky and #71 by Dillon77 on this thread

 

[Geno-ista]

Sadly, there have been lots, lots worse.

If one of your children were on the team- I'm not so sure you'd feel that way. And if they were one of the three they almost sent to a federal pen- where they each would have been dead in a week- not sure how it gets much worse than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[cabbie191]

A couple of things:
When there are issues under review with coaches and players it is very seldom 'cut and dried' and you can seldom 'go to the video tape' as they could with the Rutgers basketball coach. In most instances there has been one group of players and former players that are making complaints and another group of players and former players staunchly defending a coach. Athletic excellence requires blood sweat and tears, and it usually involves pushing athletes beyond the limits of what they thought they could do - that is a very frequent statement by both current players and former players at Uconn and within most programs that achieve national success. And the process of breaking through those limits is a combination of players being committed and of coaches pushing hard - that gets to the border of 'mistreatment' and also to the border of masochistic and other mental disorder (see Shea Ralph story) in the athletes themselves. Being 'world class' in any pursuit generally requires a level of 'imbalance' in individuals that can be frightening to mere mortals - where is the line between genius and madness is a frequent discussion and you can look at people like Bobby Fisher, or a movie like 'A Beautiful Mind' for the mental edge, just as you can look at stories of athletes and musicians and scientists who have crossed those lines. And you can look at world class coaches in the same light - Bobby Knight crossing over to the dark side on occasions is well documented.

That is all to say that issues of coaching hard vs. mistreatment are very difficult to determine, especially for outsiders - pushing one player who wants to be pushed may be great coaching, pushing another who has reached breaking point may be terrible and judging the two situation is not easy. Having multiple coaches empowered to modulate and take the temperature I think is the easiest way to avoid most problems and something that Uconn seems to do very well - but they have a very stable staff that also helps, and they are in a position to be very selective in the players they recruit which also helps.

As far as the specifics involved at Nebraska and Duke - of course lawyers are involved and whatever findings they come to are seldom to the level of 'cause' in terms of employment and the breaking of a contract, and the cost of defending a contract termination for 'cause' both in legal fees and PR hits is seldom worth it - hence almost every contract termination that is not clear cut includes significant buy-out provisions. We have no idea what the Duke investigation will come up with, and we have no idea what the Nebraska investigation results were. At Nebraska it is clear that at least one player felt the accusations were unfounded and has chosen to leave partly because of the rift created within the team and the resignation of a coach she liked.

One of the most cogent posts I've read on the BY.

 

[CocoHusky]

One of the most cogent posts I've read on the BY.

And yours would be also, except many will have to look up the meaning of the word cogent.

 

[UcMiami]

Duke University- an elite bastion of integrity when it comes to investigations!
What the entire University did to that Duke Lacrosse team and coach was one of the most horrific things in history. Did anyone out there see the recent ESPN 30 for 30 - the Big lie ??? It was mortifying what they did to 40 kids and came very close to sending 3 innocent kids to a federal prison. Jay Bilas was the only brave person associated w Duke to ask the question if there was any proof! Coach K was silent!!! And that coach was supposedly his best friend on campus. Biggest which hunt in history. Duke Univ- they can have it!!!

I know this discussion is peripheral to this thread, but the above and a few other posts bother me enough that I need to reply.

Duke had no hand in putting those three innocents in peril of prison - that was a criminal investigation by police and a prosecutors office, and any interference in that investigation by anyone associated with Duke would have been very wrong. That the prosecutor mishandled the investigation and grandstanded for the press was clearly professional 'malpractice', but those kids had a huge advantage over many people who find themselves falsely accused in that they had the resources to hire very good legal representation, and they were never 'very close' to prison - if the case had gone forward against them it was unlikely to be finally resolved for at least a year and probably a lot longer. (Police and prosecutorial malfeasance as we are learning is not as uncommon in this country as we perhaps believed even five years ago.)

I am sure that the 30 for 30 piece was very strong (have not been able to watch it yet) with the clarity of 20/20 hind sight, but it was produced by a company that in real time was running with the hounds of public outcry against Duke and the lacrosse team. That the Duke administration was caught up in a scandal of epic proportion and responded to the accusations of criminal activity by legal authorities as they did is not surprising - they did not know that those accusations were the result of a prosecutor who had gone off the rails. That the rest of the Duke athletic community did not leap to the defense of players or coaches is also not too surprising. Those were reprehensible accusations made by legal authorities, and of which none of them had first hand knowledge.

And within the larger Duke community as within most university communities there are significant divides between those who see athletic departments as seriously corrupting influences to the whole purpose of the institution's existence - the pursuit of higher learning. Resentments run deep, both within staff and student body, and they are exacerbated by perceived and real preferential treatment of student athletes. That some athletes flaunt that preferential treatment does not help. That the lacrosse scandal brought those divides to the forefront is not surprising, nor that the athletic department was placed in a defensive position with little to say.

And while the players were innocent of the specific charges, they were not 'innocent'. There had been documented complaints of unruly behavior and underage drinking, both within the Duke community and the surrounding town. That these existed already is not unique to the lacrosse team or to Duke University - athletes and teams are fairly notorious nationwide, but most athletes and teams and universities are not thrust under the glare of a media firestorm. In that glare it is hard to completely ignore the behavioral issues that can and are brushed aside quietly in other instances.

I really like and respect Jay Bilas and that he comes out of this as a voice of reason is great - but I suspect there were other 'voices of reason' at PSU and at UNC who are thankful that their utterances are lost to the wind, when what seemed to them wild accusation without proof, were over time proven to be true.

 

[huskeynut]

UC - excellent post!

I would add to the thought process that in today's society, these types of accusations are "hot button" topics for the media and others. It brings out the rage in people.

In this particular case of JPM, it seems that Duke and the athletic department are taking a measured investigation into any allegations. And they should. And we "the public" do not have a right to know what is happening right now. We need to calm down and wait to see how this all develops. If the investigation does find wrong doing / verification of allegations, then it is Duke who will decide.

Many may not like JPM, but it still is "innocent until proven guilty."

BTW - I did watch the 30 for 30 on the Duke lacrosse team. It was an out-of-control prosecutor who brought the case to court. And the lacrosse players were not any "angels" for sure.

 

[CocoHusky]

I know this discussion is peripheral to this thread, but the above and a few other posts bother me enough that I need to reply.

Duke had no hand in putting those three innocents in peril of prison - that was a criminal investigation by police and a prosecutors office, and any interference in that investigation by anyone associated with Duke would have been very wrong. That the prosecutor mishandled the investigation and grandstanded for the press was clearly professional 'malpractice', but those kids had a huge advantage over many people who find themselves falsely accused in that they had the resources to hire very good legal representation, and they were never 'very close' to prison - if the case had gone forward against them it was unlikely to be finally resolved for at least a year and probably a lot longer. (Police and prosecutorial malfeasance as we are learning is not as uncommon in this country as we perhaps believed even five years ago.)

I am sure that the 30 for 30 piece was very strong (have not been able to watch it yet) with the clarity of 20/20 hind sight, but it was produced by a company that in real time was running with the hounds of public outcry against Duke and the lacrosse team. That the Duke administration was caught up in a scandal of epic proportion and responded to the accusations of criminal activity by legal authorities as they did is not surprising - they did not know that those accusations were the result of a prosecutor who had gone off the rails. That the rest of the Duke athletic community did not leap to the defense of players or coaches is also not too surprising. Those were reprehensible accusations made by legal authorities, and of which none of them had first hand knowledge.

And within the larger Duke community as within most university communities there are significant divides between those who see athletic departments as seriously corrupting influences to the whole purpose of the institution's existence - the pursuit of higher learning. Resentments run deep, both within staff and student body, and they are exacerbated by perceived and real preferential treatment of student athletes. That some athletes flaunt that preferential treatment does not help. That the lacrosse scandal brought those divides to the forefront is not surprising, nor that the athletic department was placed in a defensive position with little to say.

And while the players were innocent of the specific charges, they were not 'innocent'. There had been documented complaints of unruly behavior and underage drinking, both within the Duke community and the surrounding town. That these existed already is not unique to the lacrosse team or to Duke University - athletes and teams are fairly notorious nationwide, but most athletes and teams and universities are not thrust under the glare of a media firestorm. In that glare it is hard to completely ignore the behavioral issues that can and are brushed aside quietly in other instances.

I really like and respect Jay Bilas and that he comes out of this as a voice of reason is great - but I suspect there were other 'voices of reason' at PSU and at UNC who are thankful that their utterances are lost to the wind, when what seemed to them wild accusation without proof, were over time proven to be true.

UC this part of this thread may eventually end up in the cesspool but like you I had to respond.

I’m most jarred by your statement: “While the players were innocent of the specific charges, they were not 'innocent' because it so closely resembles the statement of the Duke University President Richard H. Brodhead: “ If they didn’t do it, whatever they did is bad enough.”

The crime these players were accused of is rape, rowdy behavior and underage drinking cannot be equated to rape.

The Duke administration did plenty of things wrong to put these players in peril of prison. Among the most perilous besides the above statement by Brodhead:

1. Dean Sue Wasiolek advised the players to cooperate with police and tell the truth, not tell anybody about the charges, nor hire attorneys because she thought nothing would come of it.
   Source: “Presumed Guilty". Reader's Digest February 17, 2009.
2. Duke athletic director Joe Alleva lied when he announced that the team's players “wished to suspend competitive play until the DNA results come back.” Source: “Presumed Guilty". Reader's Digest February 17, 2009.
3. The players invoked their right to due process & remain silent the administration attempted to pressure Coach Mike Pressler into threatening the players scholarships and expulsion. When Pressler refused he was fired. Source: “It's Not About the Truth: The Untold Story of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case and the Lives it shattered” by Mike Pressler
   
4. 88 Duke Professors -Gang of 88 including some department heads placed an ad in The Chronicle detailing the allegations as a social disaster, racist & sexist there by forever polluting any potential jury pool. If 88 of your professors think you did “something” wrong what is a jury supposed to think? Source: Duke Chronicle April 2007

This was a sad tale full of missteps and many villains, Nifong chief among them & the players being the least. Somewhere in the middle is the Duke Administration. If Duke is analogous to a family then that administration should have done more to make sure the legal rights of the players were upheld. The same administration should also have publically criticized the faculty for its lynch mob mentality.

 

[BlueDevils]

I hate to say it, but honestly I am very very very very very happy this happening to Duke right now. I feared that I would have to see Jpm 12 year old coaching tactics for the next 3 seasons. She's slowly killed my passion for DWB the last two years. The Alexis Jones transfer still stings. How excited am I? Every couple hours the past 2-3 days I check the ESPN women's basketball page eagerly and basically craving the firing news.

I do NOT see Duke getting it wrong this next hiring. Whoever Duke next coach is getting a team of highschool McdAA( whatever that's worth) and a significant recruiting advantage over other schools. My top 3 candidates: Becky Hammon, Coach G, Scott Rueck. If Duke gets this next hire correct this is EXACTLY what the women's game needs.

 

[sarals24]

Ha, I'd love Becky Hammon too, but why in the world would she leave the freaking Spurs and the best coach in the world (apologies, Geno) to go to Duke? I hope she stays in the NBA and becomes the first female head coach.

 

[BlueDevils]

Ha, I'd love Becky Hammon too, but why in the world would she leave the freaking Spurs and the best coach in the world (apologies, Geno) to go to Duke? I hope she stays in the NBA and becomes the first female head coach.

Never underestimate the name Duke. Class over.

 

[VAMike23]

Never underestimate the name Duke. Class over.

If Becky thinks she has a shot at moving up the coaching ranks in the NBA over time, my guess is she would stay there no matter what opportunity came open in WCBB---including UCONN. She's young and just starting her coaching career so that path could take a while to walk. I don't see her as being all about the benjamins, so even if Duke (or whichever program) offered her seven figure$, it wouldn't get her to sign up. With her humble background and with her always proving naysayers wrong, she is going to want to be a trailblazer in the men's game for as long as she can and as high as she can possibly go.

Maybe if, after a few years, she sees that she is really not getting anywhere--glass ceiling issues and all, or things just aren't working out the way she hoped--she might decide to look at WCBB openings at that time. She would probably have a lot of top programs willing to give her a look.

 

[sarals24]

Never underestimate the name Duke. Class over.

Spoken like a true Dukie. (I'm married to one, so I know of what I speak.)

 

[sarals24]

If Becky thinks she has a shot at moving up the coaching ranks in the NBA over time, my guess is she would stay there no matter what opportunity came open in WCBB---including UCONN. She's young and just starting her coaching career so that path could take a while to walk. I don't see her as being all about the benjamins, so even if Duke (or whichever program) offered her seven figure$, it wouldn't get her to sign up. With her humble background and with her always proving naysayers wrong, she is going to want to be a trailblazer in the men's game for as long as she can and as high as she can possibly go.

Maybe if, after a few years, she sees that she is really not getting anywhere--glass ceiling issues and all, or things just aren't working out the way she hoped--she might decide to look at WCBB openings at that time. She would probably have a lot of top programs willing to give her a look.

I would venture that anyone who is Pop's assistant will have their pick of jobs in the future. I'm hoping that means gender blind, but I'm more realistic than that. Still, she has a shot at being a real trailblazer, and I think that would be amazing for the women's game in general.

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - thanks. I was certainly not trying to echo a statement I was not aware of, and was not equating breaking of team/school rules (and laws) with aggravated rape. But I will say students and athletes have been suspending and expelled for underage drinking and 'rowdy' behavior especially when it becomes the center of a bigger issue. That the team had this reputation already certainly put them at greater risk of being involved in something worst, and in position for false accusations to carry greater credence.

1. I don't find this particularly out of line - every citizen has a civic duty to assist authorities in investigations. It may not be the advice of a lawyer, but with a presumption of innocence it would be generally good advice.

2. Whether this was factually an accurate statement or not, it is certainly along the lines of what standard PR advice would be and has been in numerous similar situations: voluntarily suspend the activity of a group involved in a controversy until such time as the facts are known. Happens with police involved in the discharge of firearms all the time and in numerous other situations. For the players it was probably better that the statement said they were in agreement than that the school was overriding their desire to continue playing.

3. Mike is not a disinterested party - is there any corroboration of this statement as on the face of it, it seems like an unlikely move for the administration to make.

4. Whatever a group of professors stated, it would have very little bearing on a jury's deliberations had this come to trial - the daily blasts in the newspapers and commentary from a national press had already done all of that damage. Probably 75% of the millions who were exposed to the story as it unfolded had already concluded where guilt lay, the professor were just a drop in the bucket. Academia is notorious for being 'free thinking' and for its members to be independent and vocal. The talk show circuit is full of outspoken professors making colorful arguments on a wide range of topics - race and sexism and social ills being high on the list. That a group of faculty would jump on this scandal is not that surprising to me. I believe there were student groups doing the same. That an administration has little control of them is nothing new. With and academic staff of about 3500, 88 represents under 3% - pretty standard portion of hot heads in any gathering.

Coco - I am not really invested in this issue and I completely agree that the lacrosse team was put through the wringer and it was terrible for them and I am sure has left scars, but the primary responsibility for the whole mess lies with the woman who made false accusations and the secondary responsibility lies with the police and prosecutor's office for a escalating it. If you want to apportion some blame to the way Duke handled the situation, fine - but that team and those three players were in their worst nightmare regardless of how Duke handled the situation.

And it doesn't require too much imagination to envision a parallel case in which the woman was telling the truth, DNA results came back positive, and Duke was being raked over the coals for not having reined in a lacrosse team that was notorious for out of control behavior before such a tragedy could happened. It really is a very fine line between the two.

 

[Baroloboy]

And yours would be also, except many will have to look up the meaning of the word cogent.

The visitors from Stanford's and ND's boards won't

 

[UcMiami]

The visitors from Stanford's and ND's boards won't

I don't know about that - I was at a very upscale restaurant last week and used that word, and my waiter had no idea what I was talking about!!!

 

[msf22b]

Ha, I'd love Becky Hammon too, but why in the world would she leave the freaking Spurs and the best coach in the world (apologies, Geno) to go to Duke? I hope she stays in the NBA and becomes the first female head coach.

Why?
Because its a great job with big bucks attached.