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Duke in freefall

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CocoHusky

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Personally, I categorically do NOT indulge in any schadenfreude over the Duke situation.
Schadenfreude-had to look that one up, good SAT word there. Luckily I inferred the right meaning from your post.
Schadenfreude: satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
 

bballnut90

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It's hard to say with Coach P because I don't think she has done a good job of keeping Duke a national powerhouse, but a lot of it can be blamed on bad luck with injuries/transfers.

She took over in 2008 after Duke lost Bales/Harding, they were going to struggle regardless and still earned a #3 seed and made the Sweet 16. Not great by Duke standards, but not awful for first year.

In 2009, they had a solid season earning a #1 seed and lost to Michigan State.

In 2010, another good year with a last minute choke job against Baylor in the Elite 8, the closest they've been to a Final Four. Finished about on par for what most expected.

2011, they get romped by UCONN. I'd say they underachieved this year with Thomas/Thomas as seniors and a great freshman class.

2012 they have a young but talented lineup. They caught a tough break being arguably the 5th best team in the nation, where Baylor/UCONN/Notre Dame/Stanford were clearly 1-4.

2013 they lose Gray and match up in the Elite 8 as a 2 loss team with Notre Dame...still a solid season, can't blame P for that season.

2014 they lose Gray and Jones and fizzle in the 2nd round

2015 they lose Jones to injury and Calhoun to a midseason transfer. Still put together some good wins but are starting to tank.

There have been valid reasons almost every season for Duke's lack of success, but Duke has yet to overachieve under Coach P, and have done nothing to prove they can hang with elite teams, as they are consistently throttled by Connecticut and I don't think have any top 5 wins. They are a perennial Sweet 16 caliber squad but coming from GG who made Duke into a power house and consistent title threat, Duke has definitely taken a step down and with this coaching staff there are no signs that Duke will be a title contender.
 

CamrnCrz1974

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It's hard to say with Coach P because I don't think she has done a good job of keeping Duke a national powerhouse, but a lot of it can be blamed on bad luck with injuries/transfers.

She took over in 2008 after Duke lost Bales/Harding, they were going to struggle regardless and still earned a #3 seed and made the Sweet 16. Not great by Duke standards, but not awful for first year.

Duke still had eight McDonald's All-Americans with McCallie arrived in Durham (Wanisha Smith, Chante Black, Abby Waner, Carrem Gay, Joy Cheek, Bridgette Mitchell, Krystal Thomas, Jasmine Thomas). Eight.

In 2009, they had a solid season earning a #1 seed and lost to Michigan State.

...in the second round.

In 2010, another good year with a last minute choke job against Baylor in the Elite 8, the closest they've been to a Final Four. Finished about on par for what most expected.

2011, they get romped by UCONN. I'd say they underachieved this year with Thomas/Thomas as seniors and a great freshman class.
2012 they have a young but talented lineup. They caught a tough break being arguably the 5th best team in the nation, where Baylor/UCONN/Notre Dame/Stanford were clearly 1-4.
2013 they lose Gray and match up in the Elite 8 as a 2 loss team with Notre Dame...still a solid season, can't blame P for that season.
2014 they lose Gray and Jones and fizzle in the 2nd round

Even with both Gray and Jones, Duke was getting walloped by UConn.

What you can blame Coach P for is the complete lack of adjustments. In two games against Notre Dame before the Irish joined the ACC, Duke had halftime leads. In one game, Duke was up 36-20 before losing 56-54 (on a neutral court). In the NCAA Tournament game, Duke was up by six at the half, before losing the second half by 17 points.

McCallie's biggest weakness is her failure to make in-game adjustments. Once good teams adapt to her coaching style and understand the schemes she is using, she is utterly helpless to make the necessary moves and counter-moves to lead Duke to victory.


There have been valid reasons almost every season for Duke's lack of success, but Duke has yet to overachieve under Coach P, and have done nothing to prove they can hang with elite teams, as they are consistently throttled by Connecticut and I don't think have any top 5 wins. They are a perennial Sweet 16 caliber squad but coming from GG who made Duke into a power house and consistent title threat, Duke has definitely taken a step down and with this coaching staff there are no signs that Duke will be a title contender.

Agree with this completely. McCallie's record against Top 5 opponents in her eight seasons at Duke is abysmal, especially when Duke has been ranked in the Top 5/Top 10 for most of those games. She is winning less than 22 percent of those games.
 
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She's a manager (albeit a poor one at that), not a coach. Typical kiss up and down management style.
She probably won't go away cause this type papers their nest with powerful supporters that will back her till you know what freezes over. It's just hard to see a good program sink into mediocrity and obscurity. Oh yeah, not to mention the players she's impacting so negatively.
On the upside, there's alot of new teams on the up and up. Exciting coaches and players to match wits with going forward.
 
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It's hard to say with Coach P because I don't think she has done a good job of keeping Duke a national powerhouse, but a lot of it can be blamed on bad luck with injuries/transfers.

Jones, Holland, Moore, Calhoun, at what point do you stop saying the transfers are bad luck?
 

ocoandasoc

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New drinking game in Durham, NC….

Watch the presser after a Duke loss and do a shot every time McCallie denigrates her own team.

They're on track for a sixth-place finish in the ACC. No way they should host in the NCAA Tourney. (But you can bet they will!)
 

bballnut90

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Jones, Holland, Moore, Calhoun, at what point do you stop saying the transfers are bad luck?
Off the top of my head, this is the only major year where transfers have hurt Duke. Injuries crushed Duke the previous two years where they had some really talented players go down.
 
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Off the top of my head, this is the only major year where transfers have hurt Duke. Injuries crushed Duke the previous two years where they had some really talented players go down.
As an outsider, it seems really plausible to me that this is a snowball effect. Geno is very hard on his players sometimes, but constructively, with an important element of quid pro quo. If you are a highschool kid who wants to be an All American and win a National Championship, you know that his methods are proven. As that trust that the coach is doing what is best for you drops, so does your willingness to tough it out.

When McCallie is tough on her players, it doesn't seem constructive or productive and, frankly, at a distance at least it comes off as malicious (not letting players see their families because they lost, the infamous not-so-veiled tweets about players, etc.). As McCallie has now gone several years without meeting up to the expectations of fans, the program, or herself, it seems really easy to imagine that players are less willing to endure that. And, indeed, we're starting to see players who had the opportunity for a ton of playing time transfer away, something which is fairly rare in general.

Now that Duke is under performing even more-so this year, I can see the locker room dynamic getting even worse, and this can turn into a viscous circle which gets out of control really fast. For this reason, I think the (understandable) complaints about McCallie's Xs and Os are secondary to the fact that she doesn't seem to have the loyalty or trust of her players. It will be really telling if more players transfer at the end of this season.
 

Gate81

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Im sure this would be devastating for the Duke fans, but I would love to see the kids approach the administration en masse, it is either her or us. I say devastating to the fans because I still am not sure the Administration would make the right decision.
I feel so terrible for these young women (and for the fans of Duke), they deserve so much better.

I saw on the The Devils Den that a meeting was held to talk to, get feedback from, fans who were not renewing their season tickets. I wonder what the outcome of that was. My optimistic, glass half full self, wonders if Duke is gaining documentation for cause of termination, so they do not have to pay out her contract. Again though, given the appearance of lack of interest in the WBB program, I doubt it.
I have seen an entire team approach administration, demand change and get it. Of course that was a long time ago when the entire team wasn't on full athletic scholarships - which may impact their willingness to do something that drastic.
 

Gate81

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It's hard to say with Coach P because I don't think she has done a good job of keeping Duke a national powerhouse, but a lot of it can be blamed on bad luck with injuries/transfers.

She took over in 2008 after Duke lost Bales/Harding, they were going to struggle regardless and still earned a #3 seed and made the Sweet 16. Not great by Duke standards, but not awful for first year.

In 2009, they had a solid season earning a #1 seed and lost to Michigan State.

In 2010, another good year with a last minute choke job against Baylor in the Elite 8, the closest they've been to a Final Four. Finished about on par for what most expected.

2011, they get romped by UCONN. I'd say they underachieved this year with Thomas/Thomas as seniors and a great freshman class.

2012 they have a young but talented lineup. They caught a tough break being arguably the 5th best team in the nation, where Baylor/UCONN/Notre Dame/Stanford were clearly 1-4.

2013 they lose Gray and match up in the Elite 8 as a 2 loss team with Notre Dame...still a solid season, can't blame P for that season.

2014 they lose Gray and Jones and fizzle in the 2nd round

2015 they lose Jones to injury and Calhoun to a midseason transfer. Still put together some good wins but are starting to tank.

There have been valid reasons almost every season for Duke's lack of success, but Duke has yet to overachieve under Coach P, and have done nothing to prove they can hang with elite teams, as they are consistently throttled by Connecticut and I don't think have any top 5 wins. They are a perennial Sweet 16 caliber squad but coming from GG who made Duke into a power house and consistent title threat, Duke has definitely taken a step down and with this coaching staff there are no signs that Duke will be a title contender.[/Q
As an outsider, it seems really plausible to me that this is a snowball effect. Geno is very hard on his players sometimes, but constructively, with an important element of quid pro quo. If you are a highschool kid who wants to be an All American and win a National Championship, you know that his methods are proven. As that trust that the coach is doing what is best for you drops, so does your willingness to tough it out.

When McCallie is tough on her players, it doesn't seem constructive or productive and, frankly, at a distance at least it comes off as malicious (not letting players see their families because they lost, the infamous not-so-veiled tweets about players, etc.). As McCallie has now gone several years without meeting up to the expectations of fans, the program, or herself, it seems really easy to imagine that players are less willing to endure that. And, indeed, we're starting to see players who had the opportunity for a ton of playing time transfer away, something which is fairly rare in general.

Now that Duke is under performing even more-so this year, I can see the locker room dynamic getting even worse, and this can turn into a viscous circle which gets out of control really fast. For this reason, I think the (understandable) complaints about McCallie's Xs and Os are secondary to the fact that she doesn't seem to have the loyalty or trust of her players. It will be really telling if more players transfer at the end of this season.

which reminds me - while I have not heard the Calhoun transfer rationale, I can say that if I traveled to see my daughter play then was told I couldn't see her because they lost, I'd consider drastic action.
 

cabbie191

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let’s face it unless a Duke player transfers to Stanford they are going to be taking a step down in terms of the academic reputation of the school to which they transfer.

Or perhaps Princeton ...........
 

CamrnCrz1974

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Jones, Holland, Moore, Calhoun, at what point do you stop saying the transfers are bad luck?

Off the top of my head, this is the only major year where transfers have hurt Duke. Injuries crushed Duke the previous two years where they had some really talented players go down.

Duke Transfers/Other Player Defections under Coach P (in her 7.5 seasons):

- Emily Waner
- Janee Johnson
- Brittany Mitch
- Sierra Moore
- Alexis Rogers
- Chelsea Hopkins
- Alexis Jones
- Kianna Holland
- Katie Heckman
- Chloe Wells
- Sierra Calhoun

McCallie also had two players de-commit:

- Clair Watkins
- Whitney Knight
 
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Duke Transfers/Other Player Defections under Coach P (in her 7.5 seasons):

- Emily Waner
- Janee Johnson
- Brittany Mitch
- Sierra Moore
- Alexis Rogers
- Chelsea Hopkins
- Alexis Jones
- Kianna Holland
- Katie Heckman
- Chloe Wells
- Sierra Calhoun

McCallie also had two players de-commit:

- Clair Watkins
- Whitney Knight
Wow
 

DobbsRover2

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Duke Transfers/Other Player Defections under Coach P (in her 7.5 seasons):

- Emily Waner
- Janee Johnson
- Brittany Mitch
- Sierra Moore
- Alexis Rogers
- Chelsea Hopkins
- Alexis Jones
- Kianna Holland
- Katie Heckman
- Chloe Wells
- Sierra Calhoun

McCallie also had two players de-commit:

- Clair Watkins
- Whitney Knight
Wow, that is quite a hit list.

Though I'm sure McCallie would blame it on the players not liking Duke's bus driver.
 

cabbie191

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I just looked at the Under the Bus thread on the Devils Den. I have no idea how reflective the posters might be of the Duke women's team fan base but wow, what an indictment. Red flags before she was hired, terrible treatment of players and potential players, etc.

Perhaps the most telling fact, if what was stated is accurate: Former McCallie players do not come back to visit current teams. There is a long tradition at UConn, Tennessee, Baylor, Notre Dame (and I would assume at most other programs) of former players returning to help the next crop but that apparently isn't happening at Duke.

Carm, Triad - if I'm wrong in this, please let us know.
 
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The Devil's Den is all over this. At this point it's best just to send sympathy cards.
 

loneycafe

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Duke Transfers/Other Player Defections under Coach P (in her 7.5 seasons):

- Emily Waner
- Janee Johnson
- Brittany Mitch
- Sierra Moore
- Alexis Rogers
- Chelsea Hopkins
- Alexis Jones
- Kianna Holland
- Katie Heckman
- Chloe Wells
- Sierra Calhoun

McCallie also had two players de-commit:

- Clair Watkins
- Whitney Knight

Did Watkins de-commit, or was her scholarship offer pulled? She is from Charlotte, right? The N&O did story about it at the time? Or am I thinking of someone else?
 

cabbie191

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Did Watkins de-commit, or was her scholarship offer pulled? She is from Charlotte, right? The N&O did story about it at the time? Or am I thinking of someone else?

You are correct. According to the posters on DD, McCallie publicly bullied her into de-committing. She's the young woman I had in mind when I wrote a few minutes ago about McCallie's poor treatment of potential players.
 

Fightin Choke

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Did Watkins de-commit, or was her scholarship offer pulled? She is from Charlotte, right? The N&O did story about it at the time? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I think she was told her scholarship would be honored, but she was told she would never play. Thus she de-committed and wound up at Vanderbilt and then UC Santa Barbara. More on the Duke drama here: LINK.
 
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I also agree that JM's fate has already been decided. If not I would be shocked. If this were the men's game it would be a given that she would be gone with her horrid record against elite teams. Rarely if ever does Duke beat an elite team. Duke has never been the same type of tough team since GG left. If those Duke fans that some feel sorry for don't start screaming for a new coach then they will have to accept mediocre teams for the next ten years.
 

EricLA

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I also agree that JM's fate has already been decided. If not I would be shocked. If this were the men's game it would be a given that she would be gone with her horrid record against elite teams. Rarely if ever does Duke beat an elite team. Duke has never been the same type of tough team since GG left. If those Duke fans that some feel sorry for don't start screaming for a new coach then they will have to accept mediocre teams for the next ten years.
The thing I don't get is that the AD and administration was not pleased Gail did not win the NC (she'd still be there if they'd beaten Maryland in the NC game), and pretty much treated her like crap till she left (or did they ask her to resign). Point is, she did more with less than Joanne McCallie. And WTF is the reason behind her being called "Joanne P McCallie"? and she goes by the initials of JPM... ugh...
 
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For me it would be Jeff walz, then Doug bruno and if not them it gets tricky. Lots of young good coaches I've never heard of but I'm also talking to Kara Lawson.

Duke should hire a young, dynamic coach who has been successful and could build their program. A perfect fit would be Jen Rizzotti if she was willing to move from Hartford. Shea Ralph at UConn and Niele Ivey at Notre Dame are assistant coaches who are ready to run a top program. Personally, I would pick Shea Ralph who has 10 years of experience and is driven to be successful and knows the North Carolina area. Her teams are going to search for perfection much as they do at UConn.
 
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At a million a year, her buyout is very expensive. I think Duke is waiting a few years to reduce the $ liability.
They may try the relationship clause in her contract, but it may result in litigation. Feel sorry for the players.
 
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Duke still had eight McDonald's All-Americans with McCallie arrived in Durham (Wanisha Smith, Chante Black, Abby Waner, Carrem Gay, Joy Cheek, Bridgette Mitchell, Krystal Thomas, Jasmine Thomas). Eight.



...in the second round.



Even with both Gray and Jones, Duke was getting walloped by UConn.

What you can blame Coach P for is the complete lack of adjustments. In two games against Notre Dame before the Irish joined the ACC, Duke had halftime leads. In one game, Duke was up 36-20 before losing 56-54 (on a neutral court). In the NCAA Tournament game, Duke was up by six at the half, before losing the second half by 17 points.

McCallie's biggest weakness is her failure to make in-game adjustments. Once good teams adapt to her coaching style and understand the schemes she is using, she is utterly helpless to make the necessary moves and counter-moves to lead Duke to victory.




Agree with this completely. McCallie's record against Top 5 opponents in her eight seasons at Duke is abysmal, especially when Duke has been ranked in the Top 5/Top 10 for most of those games. She is winning less than 22 percent of those games.
So CAM, my question is, do you think she should be replaced? Many people were glad to see GG leave, saying she was someone who could not take Duke to the next level (deer in the headlights in big games, etc.) If she is replaced, who would you like to see get the job? Duke is a top tier program and school. Suggesting someone like Courtney Banghart seems too dowwnscale IMO (no knock on her, just not proven at the top level). Duke is a premier school with the cache to attract top level talent. Coach P did manage to take a team to the FF.
 
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