Dorka Should Start

[tchalla1]

It is not shameful at all it is perfectly justified because this debate started long before Dorka decided to come to UCONN and was based on lack of "individual" development of Liv. Liv was a starter as a sophomore. Liv failed to make a sophomore leap in her development. Specifically she failed to play with better control so as not to pick up ticky tacky fouls and be available to her team at crunch time. More significantly, she failed to impact games against ranked opponents. Liv actually impacted more games as a freshman than she did as a sophomore the most notable of which was her swat of a Mabrey shot in the ND game which help to turned the tide of that game in UCONN's favor. I have heard/read all the possible arguments/excuses for Liv's lack of development. Your argument falls in to the category of she was the only post player and the burden was too heavy . Others have put forth the argument that post players take longer to develop. Still others view every critique as a criticism, piling on, or not being supportive enough. Last season the debate continued because in certain games freshman Aaliyah Edwards outplayed Junior Liv leaving many to opine that UCONN should go to a 4 guard 1 post offense and that 1 post should be Aaliyah because Aaliyah provided more of the the post presence that UCONN needed. The debate was bound to continue because of the way UCONN's season ended. Consider that freshman Aaliyah not only outplayed Liv in the Arizona game (more points & rebounds) but the 8 points Aaliyah scored in the Arizona game was only 1 less than the total points (9) that Liv scored in the last three games of UCONN's season. Dorka is just the latest chapter in this debate but let's be clear It was Liv's inability to become a reliable starter that first started the debate and allows it to continue. Personally I'm resigned and less optimistic about Liv finally turning a corner in this her senior season. I'm also resigned to the fact that Liv is a very good player and can be and has been a solid contributor to UCONN teams. I'm also resigned to the fact that in order for UCONN to win another championship more productivity will be required from the post position. I'm optimistic that Alliyah, Dorka & Liv can provide that productivity this season.

Well said, Coco! This is the post of the month, IMO, because it's balanced, poignant and gets to the core essence of the Liv situation, which is although her play has been fair to good--sporadically very good even--regardless of the comparative, it has not been consistently up to the standard of a UCONN team, at least not a national championship-winning UCONN team... People are confusing solid with being spectacular or superior. They say when people show you who they really are, believe them. Liv has unequivocally shown us--she does not possess a complete post package, but I think Dorka will significantly compliment Liv's overall skillset. Rather than Dorka being a minus for Liv, I really think she will invigorate Liv, plus playing together will be mutually beneficial. It's going to be great!

 

[D J B]

You might want to reverse that kind of thinking. There is no consensus but I'm pretty sure the majority of posters in this thread want Liv to remain the starter. I maybe wrong but I think you may be in the majority.

Well they say that if you're a nail everyone else looks like a hammer, right? Or is it the other way around? Me, I'm more worried about power tools.

 

[HopJim]

Using the term "unserviceable" is neither unduly harsh nor overstating the overall assessment of Liv. Whatever you and I may think of her, we have the SME of Geno, who plainly said he was not satisfied with Liv's play, especially in the big games. If we use satisfied to be congruous with serviceable, then it stands that dissatisfied equates unserviceable...

???????

 

[Stymie]

You might want to reverse that kind of thinking. There is no consensus but I'm pretty sure the majority of posters in this thread want Liv to remain the starter. I maybe wrong but I think you may be in the majority.

I’d like Liv to IMPROVE so she may remain the starter.
Still have a problem giving her a pass on the last three games of last season.
That level of performance will not yield the championship.
Kinda think Geno concurs.

 

[CocoHusky]

Look up the stats and tell me what's different. I love Stef just like I love all players from UCONN. Don't read into this as disrespect of Stef.

The stats will not tell you what the difference was as clearly as I can. Junior Stef Dolson was a reliable, consistent player by the start of her Junior campaign who could be relied upon on most nights to win her position battle. That was at a time when the center/post challenge were more significant that it is today. That landscape included Britney Griner, Kelsey Boone, Natalie Achowa Chiney Ogwmike, &. Elizabeth Willams. The BE was also the best conference in WCBB.

 

[CocoHusky]

Liv was surrounded by Giants when she played Oregon and Baylor. Please share with the group who our other post was?

The other UCONN post in that game was AA Megan Walker. Was that meant to be a trick question? I think you may be missing the point: Liv had a bad game against Oregon (it happens) but she improved noticeably after-not by my standards by Geno standards. Liv then failed to sustain the improvement and a year later Geno was left scratching his head. You can read about it at this link.

Loss to Oregon fueling Olivia Nelson-Ododa’s fire

The sophomore’s play has improved since the Huskies’ humbling loss to the Ducks.

www.theuconnblog.com

 

[D J B]

The stats will not tell you what the difference was as clearly as I can. Junior Stef Dolson was a reliable, consistent player by the start of her Junior campaign who could be relied upon on most nights to win her position battle. That was at a time when the center/post challenge were more significant that it is today. That landscape included Britney Griner, Kelsey Boone, Natalie Achowa Chiney Ogwmike, &. Elizabeth Willams. The BE was also the best conference in WCBB.

I love how some folks always want someone else to look up the stats so they can argue with them. Good on you, and great post.

 

[jchusky]

I’d like Liv to IMPROVE so she may remain the starter.
Still have a problem giving her a pass on the last three games of last season.
That level of performance will not yield the championship.
Kinda think Geno concurs.

by that logic then Westbrook and Williams should not start either right? Williams missed the 2 ft's vs Baylor. Westbrook had an inexcusable turnover trying to draw a foul vs Baylor. I don't see anyone mentioning those players to lose their starting job. That's why others that support Olivia are frustrated. Because anytime a Uconn loss happens it seems she is always the reason why they lost. Other players have also struggled in those games, but never do I see them get the scrutiny Olivia does.

 

[Stymie]

My logic is based on the glaring deficiencies in the last 3 games ( where the rubber meets the road) and Geno’s comments on her needed improvement. Actually, quite simple.
Changing the subject does not change the realities.

 

[jchusky]

With about a quarter to go in the game between SC and NC State, Boston had 2 points. No one was criticizing her offense - was just the type of game it was. While Boston did not score much, her team won and most of the feedback about her play was positive. While last year ONO certainly had 1-2 horrid offensive games, she also played Boston well on defense and UConn won. For all those that like to focus on offense, lets not forget the many wins we had throughout the year, including South Carolina. Not many teams last year finished in the win column against SC.

you nailed it right on the target Jim, South Carolina wins by 9 and you know who brings up that Boston and Cardoso did not "have big games" or "scored a lot of pts" Uconn fans lmao. Like that should tell you the difference in 2021 about fanbases. For whatever reason gamecock fans never seem to count point totals, unfortunately for Olivia it seems as she has to score 20 a night or average a double double to be considered a good game. Doesn't Geno say if you aren't scoring make an impact some other way? I think Liv does that. There is more to a player than just scoring.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

With about a quarter to go in the game between SC and NC State, Boston had 2 points. No one was criticizing her offense - was just the type of game it was. While Boston did not score much, her team won and most of the feedback about her play was positive. While last year ONO certainly had 1-2 horrid offensive games, she also played Boston well on defense and UConn won. For all those that like to focus on offense, lets not forget the many wins we had throughout the year, including South Carolina. Not many teams last year finished in the win column against SC.

But Dawn Staley seems to have difficulty incorporating superstar post players in the offense. Aja Wilson was curiously out of the loop under Staley, and the fact that Boston also is often not involves is difficult to understand. I'm guessing that both would have been bigger producers were they to have played for Coach Geno.

 

[Waquoit]

Look up the stats and tell me what's different. I love Stef just like I love all players from UCONN. Don't read into this as disrespect of Stef.

Stef had much fewer bunnies missed in Final Four games.

 

[CocoHusky]

by that logic then Westbrook and Williams should not start either right? Williams missed the 2 ft's vs Baylor. Westbrook had an inexcusable turnover trying to draw a foul vs Baylor. I don't see anyone mentioning those players to lose their starting job. That's why others that support Olivia are frustrated. Because anytime a Uconn loss happens it seems she is always the reason why they lost. Other players have also struggled in those games, but never do I see them get the scrutiny Olivia does.

I'm surprised you have not seen the scrutiny given to the other players but it has been prevalent.
Aubrey Griffin has been specifically scrutinized for being a great defense player but bogging down the offensive flow. Christyn Williams had a scoreless game against Providence and there were plenty of calls for her to go to the bench to get her mind right. At the very beginning of the season when Park-Lane was torching UCONN for 29 points the need for better perimeter defense from Paige, Evina and Christyn was very loud and continued into the Arkansas game and well after. Nika Muhl has been scrutinized for not scoring enough and not making adjustment to NCAA rules of fouling vs what she is used to in Europe.
Paige has been scrutinized for her inability to handle the physical play in the last three games of the season. What you view as scrutiny, I view as calls to improve. In that sense I agree with you that Olivia gets the most scrutiny. But isn't that because the calls for Liv to improve have been around the longest? To steal @Stymie line "when the rubber meats the road" ( I'm thinking he meant in NCAA tournament) Christyn Williams is putting together one of the better NCAA tournament career in UCONN WBB history. Aubrey is now working out with the guards. Paige went into the gym this summer and was flexing bigger biceps. Nika is in noticeable better shape than she was last season. Liv has also been working on her game and I'm anxious to see if Liv has improved.

 

[CocoHusky]

But Dawn Staley seems to have difficulty incorporating superstar post players in the offense. Aja Wilson was curiously out of the loop under Staley, and the fact that Boston also is often not involves is difficult to understand. I'm guessing that both would have been bigger producers were they to have played for Coach Geno.

If A'ja Wilson was out of the loop playing under Dawn at South Carolina then I nominate A'Ja as the greatest basketball player of all time because she was:

• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player 2017
• NCAA Champion 2017
• Consensus National Player of the Year (2018)
• 3× Consensus first-team All-American (2016–2018)
• 3× SEC POY (2016–2018)
• 4× First-team All-SEC (2015–2018).

Imagine what would have happened if Dawn actually brought A'ja into the loop.

 

[eebmg]

If A'ja Wilson was out of the loop playing under Dawn at South Carolina then I nominate A'Ja as the greatest basketball player of all time because she was:

• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player 2017
• NCAA Champion 2017
• Consensus National Player of the Year (2018)
• 3× Consensus first-team All-American (2016–2018)
• 3× SEC POY (2016–2018)
• 4× First-team All-SEC (2015–2018).

Imagine what would have happened if Dawn actually brought A'ja into the loop.

Championships and NPOY awards are one thing but the more important question is what did she do against UConn?

 

[hoophuskee]

I love that we have both - don't care one bit who starts. I see Liv as offensively challenged. I don’t think she is ever going to develop into an offensive player which is fine - Kiah Stokes has had a good UCONN career and professionally. And with that said - Liv is a better defender than Dorka imo but again I'm only seeing Dorka a little bit so far.

As for Dorka- her strength looks like it's what we heard- very good low post player and has skill with the ball and can shoot. I just put up caution with her though;- her supposed strength on offense ties right into her biggest weakness - f/t shooting. While Liv's f/t shooting at least has improved year-over-year Dorka's has gone down. Last year Dorka shot 42.9% - from the free throw line. That's not "just" "bad."

The beauty thing about both is that you can play them together. The three bigs fit well. I love Aubrey Griffin but her and Liv playing together last year was an offensively challenged frontcourt.

 

[oldude]

Championships and NPOY awards are one thing but the more important question is what did she do against UConn?

Obviously, Wilson was yet another post who disappeared in big games…..

 

[The deacon]

Welcome to the other side of the boneyard. The side that joins in and contributes to the debates and discussions. We look forward to your takes and observations this year.

Thanks so much, Carnac. I'll do my best to contribute in a positive way. You all hit virtually every subject from so many different angles it might be hard to be creative... that's a nice problem to have. Cheers, my fellow Boneyarders.

In the meantime, I'm counting down the days 'til Sunday when the Huskies offer Arkansas a proper UConn welcome. I hope both Liv and Dorka play great, thus exacerbating Geno's wondrous quandary.

 

[CocoHusky]

Championships and NPOY awards are one thing but the more important question is what did she do against UConn?

A'ja scored in double figures every time she faced UCONN. UCONN won all five games against SC with Wilson in uniform.

 

[oldude]

A'ja scored in double figures every time she faced UCONN. UCONN won all five games against SC with Wilson in uniform.

I do believe eebmg’s post, as well as my own, are clearly tongue in cheek, hence the accompanying emogee

 

[eebmg]

I do believe eebmg’s post, as well as my own, are clearly tongue in cheek, hence the accompanying emogee

Tongue and cheek to a point but underlying my quip is the idea that for many BY's who only see other team's players through the lens of UConn games, different evaluations are possible.

 

[willtalk]

The biggest shortcoming of some fans on this site is the perception that just because a player commits to UConn and is a McD AA they will turn out to be college AA and top professional player. Putting unrealistic expectations on players rather than just waiting to see how they develop does them no favors. Players are who they are and some will adapt and get better on each level they end up playing in. Some will not. Its nothing personal. A players basketball ability is separate from their value as a person. It is not an insult to give an evaluation of a players abilities and value on the court. Much as UConn fans on this site had become accostomed to UConn being a lock to compete for a Natty every year, they have also become accustomed to expect the player on the team to dominate individual awards as well.

In the past there were not as many really good players coming out of high school as there are now. A few programs, especially UConn , used to have their pick of the cream of the crop. Now there are enough really good players available to more teams. So teams like UConn are not the only teams loaded with talent. There are some very good players on other teams that most of us have not even heard of let alone watched. On any given day, they can equal or even excel the more hyped players on the top teams. People on this site are totally unaware of he level of talent that exists in WCBB basically because they are only exposed to a limited number of players. Most of the media and those picking the AA teams and rating the players do not really even have a big enough sample size to make an educated guess.

Frankly! Liv is a good but not really a special player.

 

[Pinhead]

People on this site are totally unaware of he level of talent that exists in WCBB basically because they are only exposed to a limited number of players.

Generally I concur with your post but I completely disagree with this ^. While I don't fancy myself one of them, I contend that multiple BY posters are as learned a WCBB bunch as exists in forumland.

 

[Stymie]

Personally, I’m not really interested in individual honors.
Championships
Championships
Championships

 

[huskiemaniac]

Personally, I’m not really interested in individual honors.
Championships
Championships
Championships

AMEN
AMEN
AMEN