Dom Amore: If Big 12 calls, UConn will have to choose between Big East love and Power Five money.

[Richmondhsky]

No, Williams doesn’t give scholarships, but they are generous with financial aid for the kids they really want. Regardless, athletic scholarships don’t cost schools any money. They list it as a cost but it really isn’t which makes me question whether the deficit is as large as reported.

Williams College aside, you still haven’t addressed my question of why we have this huge deficit and schools around us with very little revenue but sponsoring similar teams don’t have this same big deficit. Georgetown and Villanova both have football teams. Why don’t they have a big deficit.

I’m not trying to be a sick and I’m not making an argument as you suggested. I’m genuinely asking the question. I don’t understand why we have this huge deficit,

Wow…you do know it’s significantly mor expensive to play FBS football vs FCS right? They are private schools… I don’t post often but this was just too much.

 

[Billy Jack]

athletic scholarships cost a great deal of money compared to academic scholarships, which cost very little.

What are you talking about???

 

[HuskyHawk]

The fact that the Big 12 is even looking at Gonzaga would seem to indicate that this is going in a much different direction than people think.

Also, serious question for people who pay closer attention to football than me: How has Mora been recruiting? I recognize that he's done a nice job here so far, but there is still a very long way to go.

They aren't looking at Gonzaga. It's just clickbait nonsense.

 

[nadav]

Because it's private we don't know, but I suspect that the Ephs aren't on the hook for $3 million a piece for their men's and women's head basketball coaches.

 

[Kolumbo]

The cold hard reality is that the big conferences are getting bigger and richer and you have to be a part of it or you will be left behind. USC and UCLA are going to the mid-west and east coast. PAC and ACC fans want their conferences to merge. I am starting to believe the Big East will fall behind and it could be much sooner than we'd like to believe. "Hey how come Andrew gets to get up. If he gets up, we'll all get up. It'll be anarchy!"

Yormark and the Big 12 are supposedly focusing more on basketball and I think it's a good strategy. They cannot compete with the P2 in football so they are going to differentiate themselves. I would not be surprised if they eventually acquire some basketball only schools to solidify their position. I believe there is a risk Nova and others could be invited to a bigger conference and that would cripple the Big East. Accepting any P5 offer is the only play, love it or hate it.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The cold hard reality is that the big conferences are getting bigger and richer and you have to be a part of it or you will be left behind. USC and UCLA are going to the mid-west and east coast. PAC and ACC fans want their conferences to merge. I am starting to believe the Big East will fall behind and it could be much sooner than we'd like to believe. "Hey how come Andrew gets to get up. If he gets up, we'll all get up. It'll be anarchy!"

Yormark and the Big 12 are supposedly focusing more on basketball and I think it's a good strategy. They cannot compete with the P2 in football so they are going to differentiate themselves. I would not be surprised if they eventually acquire some basketball only schools to solidify their position. I believe there is a risk Nova and others could be invited to a bigger conference and that would cripple the Big East. Accepting any P5 offer is the only play, love it or hate it.

They don't need to and won't. It was the best conference the last two years. It loses UT but adds Houston, which has been better the last decade or so. Cinci is down but is historically strong, better than OU. Now, take that, and add UConn and Arizona. It just blows the doors off any league in the country. Now, if the people who see the ACC picked apart are right (I doubt it), there is potential to add Duke.

The risk isn't that the Big East will get picked apart, but that in the NIL landscape it won't continue to be able to compete.

 

[temery]

What are you talking about???

Many athletes on scholarship require not only academic assistance, but all require administration to track and report progress. This all costs a great deal of money.

 

[Kolumbo]

They don't need to and won't. It was the best conference the last two years. It loses UT but adds Houston, which has been better the last decade or so. Cinci is down but is historically strong, better than OU. Now, take that, and add UConn and Arizona. It just blows the doors off any league in the country. Now, if the people who see the ACC picked apart are right (I doubt it), there is potential to add Duke.

The risk isn't that the Big East will get picked apart, but that in the NIL landscape it won't continue to be able to compete.

I think both of those risks are real, however slight, especially if there is ever a separation of football and basketball. Too many unknowns to feel comfortable with staying in a basketball only league. It would be foolish to accept any risk if you can eliminate it altogether. My bigger point is that everything is changing and I think the Big East will fall behind. Georgetown, if it gets its act together, and SJU would be prime candidates along with Nova given their resources and locations.

 

[HooperScooper]

No, Williams doesn’t give scholarships, but they are generous with financial aid for the kids they really want.

I can't answer your major question. I wasn't responding to that part of your post.

But I don't think you understand how small elite liberal arts schools give financial aid. I happen to know a lot about it. I will leave it that and not respond any further.

 

[August_West]

Cinci is down but is historically strong,

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Yeah, on the surface it may sound like a ridiculous statement but if you were to investigate it you'd find that it applies when comparing that school to at least half of the current BE excluding us.

But then again, you believe PC is historically stronger than OK St and Kansas St.

 

[Billy Jack]

Because it's private we don't know, but I suspect that the Ephs aren't on the hook for $3 million a piece for their men's and women's head basketball coaches.

I’m sure you’re right. Obviously. Their coaches are lucky if they make $100,000.

What’s also true is that Williams doesn’t have the revenue that UConn has. As you know, deficit = revenue - expenses. And we’re talking about expenses for 10 more sports.

The coaches salaries, including assistants, are a big piece of it. The deficit is reported at $53 million. Is it all coaches’ salaries?

 

[Billy Jack]

And FWIW Williams sponsors 30 teams, not 32. Not that it matters though for this argument.

Their website says 32.

 

[Billy Jack]

The cold hard reality is that the big conferences are getting bigger and richer and you have to be a part of it or you will be left behind. USC and UCLA are going to the mid-west and east coast. PAC and ACC fans want their conferences to merge. I am starting to believe the Big East will fall behind and it could be much sooner than we'd like to believe. "Hey how come Andrew gets to get up. If he gets up, we'll all get up. It'll be anarchy!"

Yormark and the Big 12 are supposedly focusing more on basketball and I think it's a good strategy. They cannot compete with the P2 in football so they are going to differentiate themselves. I would not be surprised if they eventually acquire some basketball only schools to solidify their position. I believe there is a risk Nova and others could be invited to a bigger conference and that would cripple the Big East. Accepting any P5 offer is the only play, love it or hate it.

I agree with all you’ve said here. Doesn’t the university at some point have to consider the fact that these are full time students? When 9 of the other 12 opponents are west of the Mississippi and in a different time zone, is traveling to these road games compatible with being a full time student? One opponent is 2000+ air miles and 2 time zones away. None are in the Northeast. The Bug East includes only one opponent west of the Mississippi and only 3 in a different time zone.

 

[Kolumbo]

I agree with all you’ve said here. Doesn’t the university at some point have to consider the fact that these are full time students? When 9 of the other 12 opponents are west of the Mississippi and in a different time zone, is traveling to these road games compatible with being a full time student? One opponent is 2000+ air miles and 2 time zones away. None are in the Northeast. The Bug East includes only one opponent west of the Mississippi and only 3 in a different time zone.

Yes, it absolutley should, but CR has blown it all up and it is only going to get worse. USC and UCLA will have to travel across 3 and 4 time zones to play everyone except each other. Oregon and Washington will likely be in a similar situation. Ideally UConn would end up in the Big 12 with other eastern programs joining later. But it has to make a move soon before other P5 programs grab all the seats.

For the poster bringing up Williams College, they probably take buses to all away games so sure, it's a lot cheaper to run a D III program.

 

[Billy Jack]

They don't need to and won't. It was the best conference the last two years. It loses UT but adds Houston, which has been better the last decade or so. Cinci is down but is historically strong, better than OU. Now, take that, and add UConn and Arizona. It just blows the doors off any league in the country. Now, if the people who see the ACC picked apart are right (I doubt it), there is potential to add Duke.

Houston has NOT been better than UT over the past decade according to Ken Pom. His average national rank for UT over the past decade has been 34.2 vs 51.3 for Houston.

When was Cinci better than Oklahoma? The 1960s? OU went to a Final Four just 7 yeas ago. Before that went to F4’s in 2002 and in 1988. They’ve consistently gone to the tournament in the open era - a total of 30 tournaments (6 Elite 8’s & 11 Sweet 16’s) in 45 years, starting in 1979.

In that same time Cinci’s been to one F4 - way back in 1992. Since 1979, they’ve been to 23 tournaments (3 Elite 8’s & 5 Sweet 16’s. Historically they had a great run in the 1950s & 1960s, but they have not been a stronger program than OU in more recent times.

 

[HooperScooper]

Their website says 32.

You're right, it does. But they have 30 teams listed on their athletics page - 15 men's and 15 women's. It's a great school but I guess they're not great at math. I'm guessing they dropped 2 sports relatively recently and they didn't update the page that says 32 sports.

 

[Billy Jack]

Many athletes on scholarship require not only academic assistance, but all require administration to track and report progress. This all costs a great deal of money.

So, you’re saying that it’s not the scholarships which cost money but the support services?

 

[Billy Jack]

I can't answer your major question. I wasn't responding to that part of your post.

But I don't think you understand how small elite liberal arts schools give financial aid. I happen to know a lot about it. I will leave it that and not respond any further.

Okay. Thanks for responding.

 

[ctchamps]

They have 30 listed on their athletics page. It's a great school but I guess they're not great at math.

More like they have a great marketing program!

 

[Billy Jack]

Yes, it absolutley should, but CR has blown it all up and it is only going to get worse. USC and UCLA will have to travel across 3 and 4 time zones to play everyone except each other. Oregon and Washington will likely be in a similar situation. Ideally UConn would end up in the Big 12 with other eastern programs joining later. But it has to make a move soon before other P5 programs grab all the seats.

Given that situation, the ACC would seem to be the best fit for

For the poster bringing up Williams College, they probably take buses to all away games so sure, it's a lot cheaper to run a D III program.

Yeah, I get the D III thing. I just threw that in to contrast a school running 32 sports teams without state support to a school running 22 teams with a $53 million deficit. New England & NY flagships are running their programs without such a deficit. None if them have our revenue. Something’s wrong somewhere.

 

[Kolumbo]

You're right, it does. But they have 30 teams listed on their athletics page - 15 men's and 15 women's. It's a great school but I guess they're not great at math. I'm guessing they dropped 2 sports relatively recently and they didn't update the page that says 32 sports.

Their website says 32.

Track & Field is split into 2 each for Men & Women, Indoor & Outdoor, but listed once each on its sports website.

Williams Ephs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Billy Jack]

Track & Field is split into 2 each for Men & Women, Indoor & Outdoor, but listed once each on its sports website.

Williams Ephs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks. Mystery solved.

 

[auror]

Houston has NOT been better than UT over the past decade according to Ken Pom. His average national rank for UT over the past decade has been 34.2 vs 51.3 for Houston.

This is one of those times where median is probably better than average due to outliers.

Houston - 15
Texas - 31

Houston had 1 200+ season in Kelvin's first year mixed in with 6 top 20 seasons. Texas was pretty consistently 20-40 but had their best season this past season (2 top 20 seasons).

 

[Kolumbo]

Given that situation, the ACC would seem to be the best fit for


Yeah, I get the D III thing. I just threw that in to contrast a school running 32 sports teams without state support to a school running 22 teams with a $53 million deficit. New England & NY flagships are running their programs without such a deficit. None if them have our revenue. Something’s wrong somewhere.

Sure we'd all prefer the ACC but it's on lockdown.

I don't know about anyone else's financials but in the case of Williams, it's like a very large high school with it's share of millionaires for alumni. I'm sure that helps. Maybe they save money by avoiding the mass pike.

 

[temery]

So, you’re saying that it’s not the scholarships which cost money but the support services?

 

[Billy Jack]

This is one of those times where median is probably better than average due to outliers.

Houston - 15
Texas - 31

Houston had 1 200+ season in Kelvin's first year mixed in with 6 top 20 seasons. Texas was pretty consistently 20-40 but had their best season this past season (2 top 20 seasons).

Well, if you want to rate Sampson, then your median makes perfect sense. But if the point is to rate the University of Houston’s basketball program, then it’s the Sampson years that are the outlier. Let’s not look just at the past decade but let’s look at the 2 decades before that as well, in which Houston had only 9 seasons with a winning record. Before Sampson got them to the NCAA tournament in 2018, Houston had gone 25 years with just one tournament appearance.

The idea that Houston has been a better program than Texas in any reasonable time frame is just ludicrous unless we’re going back almost 40 years to Phi Slama Jama and beyond. Texas has been to 29 NCAA tournaments in the last 35 years. Houston has been to 8. Both have been to 1 Final Four, but Texas has been to 5 Elite 8’s and Houston has been to 2.

 

[auror]

Well, if you want to rate Sampson, then your median makes perfect sense. But if the point is to rate the University of Houston’s basketball program, then it’s the Sampson years that are the outlier. Let’s not look just at the past decade but let’s look at the 2 decades before that as well, in which Houston had only 9 seasons with a winning record. Before Sampson got them to the NCAA tournament in 2018, Houston had gone 25 years with just one tournament appearance.

The idea that Houston has been a better program than Texas in any reasonable time frame is just ludicrous unless we’re going back almost 40 years to Phi Slama Jama and beyond. Texas has been to 29 NCAA tournaments in the last 35 years. Houston has been to 8. Both have been to 1 Final Four, but Texas has been to 5 Elite 8’s and Houston has been to 2.

If you don't think a decade is a reasonable timeframe, then we're not going to find common ground.

 

[Billy Jack]

If you don't think a decade is a reasonable timeframe, then we're not going to find common ground.

But it’s not even a decade. Houston has been a top program for 6 years. That’s it. Six years. Before that, it drops off a cliff. One NCAA tournament in 25 years.

What this says to me is that Sampson is a great coach, not that Houston is a great program. I have confidence that Hiuston will continue to excell as long as Sampson is the coach. But Sampson will be 68 at the start of next season, so his days/years are numbered.

The decision re conference membership is not about the current coach but whether the school shows any indication that it can sustain success over time. Houston has not shown that.

Joining the Big XII if that’s offered is probably the right decision - but not because Houston is a great program.

 

[auror]

But it’s not even a decade. Houston has been a top program for 6 years. That’s it. Six years. Before that, it drops off a cliff. One NCAA tournament in 25 years.

What this says to me is that Sampson is a great coach, not that Houston is a great program. I have confidence that Hiuston will continue to excell as long as Sampson is the coach. But Sampson will be 68 at the start of next season, so his days/years are numbered.

The decision re conference membership is not about the current coach but whether the school shows any indication that it can sustain success over time. Houston has not shown that.

Joining the Big XII if that’s offered is probably the right decision - but not because Houston is a great program.

Houston has finished ahead of Texas every year for 7 straight years on KenPom. Historically they have double the number of FInal Fours and more Sweet 16s.

Houston is a good program now with a bright future. It's in a fertile recruiting area with 2 strong periods of history and the same number of Final Fours as us. It's bankrolled by a billionaire basketball fan that owns an NBA team. And when I say bankrolled, I don't mean like "he likes the program and donates occasionally", I mean he's the Chairman of the Board of Regents for the University. His name is on the arena courtesy of the renovation they did 6 years ago. The facilities are top notch. Officially, they spend a similar amount on basketball as us. Unofficially, they got a nice transfer haul this year including a top 5 transfer.

Houston has shown that when they're not banished into Conference USA due to the Southwest conference breaking up, they're a good program. The city's population has doubled in the last 30 years. They're in the #7 media market. 38k undergrads. They're a very good addition to a basketball league with eyes on the now and the future. In the short term, they're going to be better than Texas (I don't think Terry is all that great), and it's not like they have a high bar to clear to equal Texas' impact historically. We're not talking about replacing Duke or Kentucky here. Before this past year, Texas hadn't made a Sweet 16 in the last 14 years.