DePaul and the Big East

[willie99]

Using metrics without eye test and individual evaluations, like modern day geeks are prone to do, since the days of the RPI so it's nothing new, Depaul is literally keeping Big East bubble teams out of the tournament.

For all the good we bring the the conference, DePaul is more than our counterweight. They're killing us. DePaul is a team we would schedule on November 10th, not January and February

They're costing us money, they're costing everyone money, and they may keep 1-4 conference teams out of the dance. They're that bad, and I don't care to see them any more than I would care to see Mississippi Valley State

We complain about 300+ teams hurting us, yet we have two 300+ games in our conference. They won't hurt us this year, but they will some year

PS: I saw a comment where Dayton wouldn't be an upgrade. For the love of God, please. Dayton and DePaul are in different stratospheres. I don't want a St Louis, and Gonzaga would be awesome but too costly for them to travel (not anyone else)

 

[Improviser]

Feel bad for them that Abass will likely leave in the off season. Wonder if he’s good enough to target for us?

Not sure, but he has physicality and scored when he got inside position. Obviously, he didn't make any difference in elevating his otherwise horrible team.

Did he defend? I didn't pay attention, but I don't recall his intimidating our drives to the basket or hindering Clingan.

In the past under Ollie's teams we had some bruiser type centers (Lubin and another whose name I don't recall) and none translated physicality into wins or elevating overall team play.

Maybe, a depth piece if he is the best option left?

 

[J187Money]

There is just way too much potential there, big Catholic U in one of the biggest US cities to not think they can turn it around at some point. Especially now with NIL. They just need the right guy…

Their endowment is bigger than ours - so there is at least some money.

 

[J187Money]

DePaul needs a smaller arena on the north side near the campus. Their version of Carnesecca Arena. A place they can fill up. That would add immediate excitement to their games and program and start to make them relevant again. Their downward trend began when they moved to the Rosemont Horizon Arena near O'Hare and has continued to Wintrust on the southside near McCormick Place. This building was a huge mistake and awful for the program.

Strange that they built it where it is - even though it is a great facility.

Depaul has a 50 year lease there so don't think that is going to change.

 

[J187Money]

Northwestern will not be booted. Charter member, academic powerhouse, Chicagoland institution.

Outstanding facilities. Tons of support. And buckets of cash.

 

[J187Money]

Don’t hold your breathe .
They’re a founding member with heavyweight alumi . Remember its College Presidents & Trustees who make these decisions not AD’s.

Yeah - one guy dropped our entire endowment to rebuild the football stadium.

 

[auror]

Using metrics without eye test and individual evaluations, like modern day geeks are prone to do, since the days of the RPI so it's nothing new, Depaul is literally keeping Big East bubble teams out of the tournament.

For all the good we bring the the conference, DePaul is more than our counterweight. They're killing us. DePaul is a team we would schedule on November 10th, not January and February

They're costing us money, they're costing everyone money, and they may keep 1-4 conference teams out of the dance. They're that bad, and I don't care to see them any more than I would care to see Mississippi Valley State

We complain about 300+ teams hurting us, yet we have two 300+ games in our conference. They won't hurt us this year, but they will some year

PS: I saw a comment where Dayton wouldn't be an upgrade. For the love of God, please. Dayton and DePaul are in different stratospheres. I don't want a St Louis, and Gonzaga would be awesome but too costly for them to travel (not anyone else)

That's not how modern metrics work. They're not keeping anyone out of the dance.

 

[John]

Put performance metrics on them for the next 5-10 years (give them a fair chance to improve), and if metrics aren't met they get Temple'ed out of the conference.

 

[DFW HOYA]

Announced attendance for Wednesday's game: 3,465. Didn't look close to one-third full on TV.

 

[superjohn]

Announced attendance for Wednesday's game: 3,465. Didn't look close to one-third full on TV.

I'm not good at gauging crowd size but I would put the total around 1,000

 

[CTBballfan243]

There is just way too much potential there, big Catholic U in one of the biggest US cities to not think they can turn it around at some point. Especially now with NIL. They just need the right guy

In today’s college athletics, there is no way for these private religious institutions ( other than ND) to compete with the Power Conferences. The gap is only going to get wider between the haves and the have nots.

 

[FearThePups]

Imagine what other teams were saying about UConn in 1985.

That may be true, but 5 years later we played epic games against our league foes and Duke in the1990 Elite eight round losing to a Laettner buzzer beater. All that in 5 years. I agree it takes the right coach. Look what Danny has done in 5 1/2 years. Won the natty in 5 years. So it can be done.

 

[Tyler2Rings]

I know it's DePaul but I'm shocked that only a few thousand people in the city of Chicago wanted to watch the #1 team in the country. I would have expected a bunch of neutral party CBB fans.

For example there's got to be a lot of Purdue alum in the city who you'd think would want a look

 

[willie99]

That's not how modern metrics work. They're not keeping anyone out of the dance.

It's exactly what NCAA Net Rankings are all about

 

[John]

I know it's DePaul but I'm shocked that only a few thousand people in the city of Chicago wanted to watch the #1 team in the country. I would have expected a bunch of neutral party CBB fans.

For example there's got to be a lot of Purdue alum in the city who you'd think would want a look

as I asked in the chat last night, if that's what they put in the building for UConn (or a Marquette or Creighton), what do they put in the building for the middling middle or bottom of the conference?

 

[uconngb]

They have to go. I mean 3-21 and losing games by 20+ points consistently. It's awful

 

[John]

They have to go. I mean 3-21 and losing games by 20+ points consistently. It's awful

5-10 year performance benchmarks, heave-ho if not met.

 

[QDOG5]

I agree with at @superjohn that the crowd was about 1,000. I did see a number of people with Purdue gear. The Marquette game is always close to a sellout because Marquette alums are crazy about their team. I will say that the UConn crowd last night was the largest I've seen at Wintrust.

 

[freescooter]

as I asked in the chat last night, if that's what they put in the building for UConn (or a Marquette or Creighton), what do they put in the building for the middling middle or bottom of the conference?

Can you imagine DePaul-Georgetown? They probably have to kidnap people and hold them hostage to watch that dreck!

 

[auror]

It's exactly what NCAA Net Rankings are all about

Net Rankings consider margin of victory. So just playing DePaul doesn't matter, the same as playing any other team doesn't matter. What matters is how well you do against them.

They began the conference season ranked in the 200s and now they're in the 300s. It's a zero sum system, so actually DePaul has helped the rest of the conference so far.

 

[kobe]

 

[willie99]

The NET includes more components than just winning percentage. It takes into account game results, strength of schedule, game location, scoring margin, net offensive and defensive efficiency, and the quality of wins and losses.

--------------------------------

I'm going to make this super simple.

Quad 1 wins are better than Quad 4

Depaul is in Quad 4

Shocking that there is a discussion, but there is no debate

Computer modules, RPI, KenPom, NCAA Net Rankings and every metric known to mankind takes into account your opponents and their strength in some manner or another

Geez, if we only had more 300+ schools in the Big East, our body of work might be better than Purdue's!!!!!!!!!!

Whoop whoop whoop

 

[auror]

The NET includes more components than just winning percentage. It takes into account game results, strength of schedule, game location, scoring margin, net offensive and defensive efficiency, and the quality of wins and losses.

--------------------------------

I'm going to make this super simple.

Quad 1 wins are better than Quad 4

Depaul is in Quad 4

Shocking that there is a discussion, but there is no debate

Computer modules, RPI, KenPom, NCAA Net Rankings and every metric known to mankind takes into account your opponents and their strength in some manner or another

Geez, if we only had more 300+ schools in the Big East, our body of work might be better than Purdue's!!!!!!!!!!

Whoop whoop whoop

The quads are an output of the NET, not an input.

You could absolutely have a schedule entirely of Quad 4 games and be #1 in the NET if you won the games by enough points. Right now Indiana State is #29 and their best win is at Bradley. They've played 19 Quad 3 or Quad 4 games so far. Their resume metric ranks are 21, 30, and 40. Again, their best win is at Bradley and their 2nd best win is home against Drake.

There's been a whole narrative in college basketball this season about the B12 and teams like Houston and Iowa St blowing bad teams out and juicing their NET (but that's a whole other topic which is kinda right but mostly wrong).

What you said was:

Depaul is literally keeping Big East bubble teams out of the tournament
...
and they may keep 1-4 conference teams out of the dance.

Beating DePaul is not keeping anyone out of the tournament. DePaul isn't going to beat any of our bubble teams. If they do, that bubble team doesn't deserve to get into the tournament.

Is there an opportunity cost to DePaul on the schedule vs. a better team? Possibly. But you might lose to that better team, and you're not losing to DePaul. In fact it's quite easy to beat them by a lot of points, especially since they fired their coach. As I mentioned, their net rating change has gifted BE teams increases in their metrics overall. BE bubble teams this season have 11 Q1 opportunities in league play. Lack of Q1 wins for our bubble teams is only a problem if you're not good enough to win them.

But even aside from scoring margin, none of the "resume" metrics give you a demerit for beating anybody. Beating DePaul is not hurting anybody's resume. The baseline is positive movement for a win (although in DePaul's case it's close to zero, but it's not negative). The "predictive" metrics it depends on your margin of victory, but again, it's not hurting you if you beat them by enough. It's within your control. These metrics have been designed to judge quality of teams in all manner of conferences with varying membership strengths. You can show your quality against anyone and move up. As you said, there are other factors that go into the ranking, but those factors only really determine how much you need to beat them (on a per possession basis) to move up.

 

[navery12]

The NET includes more components than just winning percentage. It takes into account game results, strength of schedule, game location, scoring margin, net offensive and defensive efficiency, and the quality of wins and losses.

--------------------------------

I'm going to make this super simple.

Quad 1 wins are better than Quad 4

Depaul is in Quad 4

Shocking that there is a discussion, but there is no debate

Computer modules, RPI, KenPom, NCAA Net Rankings and every metric known to mankind takes into account your opponents and their strength in some manner or another

Geez, if we only had more 300+ schools in the Big East, our body of work might be better than Purdue's!!!!!!!!!!

Whoop whoop whoop

You should really quit before you get dunked on for the 3rd time in this thread, as enjoyable as it is to watch

 

[FearThePups]

The quads are an output of the NET, not an input.

You could absolutely have a schedule entirely of Quad 4 games and be #1 in the NET if you won the games by enough points. Right now Indiana State is #29 and their best win is at Bradley. They've played 19 Quad 3 or Quad 4 games so far. Their resume metric ranks are 21, 30, and 40. Again, their best win is at Bradley and their 2nd best win is home against Drake.

There's been a whole narrative in college basketball this season about the B12 and teams like Houston and Iowa St blowing bad teams out and juicing their NET (but that's a whole other topic which is kinda right but mostly wrong).

What you said was:


Beating DePaul is not keeping anyone out of the tournament. DePaul isn't going to beat any of our bubble teams. If they do, that bubble team doesn't deserve to get into the tournament.

Is there an opportunity cost to DePaul on the schedule vs. a better team? Possibly. But you might lose to that better team, and you're not losing to DePaul. In fact it's quite easy to beat them by a lot of points, especially since they fired their coach. As I mentioned, their net rating change has gifted BE teams increases in their metrics overall. BE bubble teams this season have 11 Q1 opportunities in league play. Lack of Q1 wins for our bubble teams is only a problem if you're not good enough to win them.

But even aside from scoring margin, none of the "resume" metrics give you a demerit for beating anybody. Beating DePaul is not hurting anybody's resume. The baseline is positive movement for a win (although in DePaul's case it's close to zero, but it's not negative). The "predictive" metrics it depends on your margin of victory, but again, it's not hurting you if you beat them by enough. It's within your control. These metrics have been designed to judge quality of teams in all manner of conferences with varying membership strengths. You can show your quality against anyone and move up. As you said, there are other factors that go into the ranking, but those factors only really determine how much you need to beat them (on a per possession basis) to move up.

They said there’d be no math.