Copycats

[BigBird]

There's an extreme sensitivity to weight comments regarding women, much more so than men, because of the unattainable ideal that a gal can't be too thin. Women have been tortured by this expectation and few guys can even begin to understand it. Women and women athletes have a variety of body types and thinking that they would be better if they lost weight is demeaning and just wrong. Mawbrey played most of the game at a fast pace and didn't appear to be winded or tired- and scored 21 points, so why would 20 pounds less make her better?

Agreed, until you got to the last sentence. Several of the ND players were walking through their version of the motion offense in the fourth quarter. Don’t just follow the ball. The ND posts were nearly sedentary when they didn’t have the ball. While I don’t care to hash out body image issues (I have been overweight my entire life), being slower or more easily fatigued than your opponent absolutely is a legitimate area for discussion. How we conduct that dialogue obviously matters too. We applaud our players for being quicker than their opponents, and there are reasons for their advantage. Exploring those reasons however, probably requires some diplomacy.

 

[oldude]

Agreed, until you got to the last sentence. Several of the ND players were walking through their version of the motion offense in the fourth quarter. Don’t just follow the ball. The ND posts were nearly sedentary when they didn’t have the ball. While I don’t care to hash out body image issues (I have been overweight my entire life), being slower or more easily fatigued than your opponent absolutely is a legitimate area for discussion. How we conduct that dialogue obviously matters too. We applaud our players for being quicker than their opponents, and there are reasons for their advantage. Exploring those reasons however, probably requires some diplomacy.

UConn's own KML was the subject of considerable discussion about her weight for the 4 years she was in Storrs, but during those 4 years, there wasn't another player on the team whose hands I would rather have the ball in taking the last shot in a close game.

 

[bballnut90]

With the success that Uconn is having with its program, I’m wondering if any other coaches are running the same or similar system. Any thoughts on programs which you believe are Uconn like at any level?

Others have mentioned Notre Dame—the programs have run very similar offenses the last 6-7 years, the main difference being that Notre Dame’s guards seem to have more freedom (for better or worse) to drive the lane and get their own shot while UCONN runs an offense that relies more on picks and precise passing rather than dribble penetration.

Notre Dame’s strength has been their guard play while UCONN’s has been their forwards and front court. Obviously players like Turner, Jefferson, Peters, Hartley, etc have had massive impacts but the difference makers in many games have been Stewart, Diggins, Tuck, Dolson or McBride. This time around it was Stevens.

Defensively I don’t see a lot of similarities between the two....Notre Dame is rarely a strong defensive team.

 

[oldude]

Others have mentioned Notre Dame—the programs have run very similar offenses the last 6-7 years, the main difference being that Notre Dame’s guards seem to have more freedom (for better or worse) to drive the lane and get their own shot while UCONN runs an offense that relies more on picks and precise passing rather than dribble penetration.

Notre Dame’s strength has been their guard play while UCONN’s has been their forwards and front court. Obviously players like Turner, Jefferson, Peters, Hartley, etc have had massive impacts but the difference makers in many games have been Stewart, Diggins, Tuck, Dolson or McBride. This time around it was Stevens.

Defensively I don’t see a lot of similarities between the two....Notre Dame is rarely a strong defensive team.

Absolutely correct, although I do see a greater tendency on the part of the Huskies to put the ball on the floor and take it to the basket this year vs last year.

 

[BigBird]

UConn's own KML was the subject of considerable discussion about her weight for the 4 years she was in Storrs, but during those 4 years, there wasn't another player on the team whose hands I would rather have the ball in taking the last shot in a close game.

I well know that, and I agree. And KML was nowhere near as slow as some made her out to be. Her endurance was good - she was one heck of an athlete. I felt that the discussions of her fitness often lacked the respectful diplomacy that I called for in my previous message. What I saw late-game from ND’s bigs was something that did raise some fitness questions, even if (like most things) we might draw differing conclusions.

 

[oldude]

I well know that, and I agree. And KML was nowhere near as slow as some made her out to be. Her endurance was good - she was one heck of an athlete. I felt that the discussions of her fitness often lacked the respectful diplomacy that I called for in my previous message. What I saw late-game from ND’s bigs was something that did raise some fitness questions, even if (like most things) we might draw differing conclusions.

Everyone sees things differently. IMHO, ND’s 4th qtr collapse had more to do with the Huskies raising their game and the Irish losing their poise, than a lack of fitness by ND.

 

[BigBird]

Everyone sees things differently. IMHO, ND’s 4th qtr collapse had more to do with the Huskies raising their game and the Irish losing their poise, than a lack of fitness by ND.

These three notions aren’t mutually exclusive. I watch UConn players move without the ball, and there is typically a chasm separating their energy level and that of their opponents.

 

[bballnut90]

Absolutely correct, although I do see a greater tendency on the part of the Huskies to put the ball on the floor and take it to the basket this year vs last year.

Agreed. Crystal is much more comfortable going into the lane than Chong was. Williams and Samuelson also will put the ball on the floor and drive. Not as much from Nurse or Collier.

 

[HuskylnSC]

Lots of coaches run similar programs on the court. IMHO there are two major differences that set apart the UCONN program.

1) Geno's willingness to sit anyone who does not play the way they are taught. All players must execute team defense and team offense or they do not play. Two great point guards we recently saw for UCLA and ND would have been benched for their play. It's Geno's way or the pine way.

2) CD's absolute attention to detail in every area of the ladies lives. Things like not letting DT go around campus with her shoes untied. Enforcing dress code and also setting up fun side trips make the UConn experience more of a family.

At Uconn it's the little things that make a big difference

 

[donalddoowop]

Geno is caustic, sarcastic, sometimes insulting to his players, but he can also be very funny, sweet and charming. Somebody, may be Jeff Jacobs once said that Geno can be a very successful stand in comic. So he can get away with his criticism while others coaches cannot. In addition, Geno has a relationship and loyalty with his players, old and new which is formed by bonds of hard work and achieved excellence and of course championships. Try to duplicate that!!!

He can get away with his caustic, sarcastic, and insulting ways, as long as UCONN continues to win NCs.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Excellent point. Of course you can also recruit top talent and still not win consistently, like a certain program in TN.

I know not of whom you speak! Is there another team other than Middle Tenn?

 

[huskeynut]

All absolutely great comments and insights. So I'll try to sum it up -

Often imitated, never duplicated!

 

[BroadwayVa]

All absolutely great comments and insights. So I'll try to sum it up -

Often imitated, never duplicated!

Who are the imitators disregarding ND, U South Carolina ?

 

[Orangutan]

You were talking about a young lady who is not old enough to rent a car or get served a drink at a bar.

As of September 14, she can get served that drink.

I didn't take any offense to his post although I am a little uncomfortable when this subject comes up. Mabrey strikes me as a strange choice to single out. She's a gym rat with, if I recall correctly, a personal trainer mother. I don't question her fitness at all.

Now, Shepard look visibly tired to me near the end of last night's game and missed a 4th quarter bunny that I suspect she would never miss in the 1st quarter. So I think it's reasonable to mention that perhaps her conditioning could be better.

 

[JordyG]

I have no problem msf22b with what you said and how you phrased it. What you said was your opinion. The problem is, to me, societal body types and prejudicies have no relevance in sports. Sports is a society apart. Yes, women have been stigmatized and body shamed unmercifully in western society. It's been criminal. But that has little to nothing to do with IBW's and DWR's for maximum efficiency in sports. These have to do with the impact ratio's on body frames and weight bearing joints which can hinder high performance and which can create further health issues down the road. Some of them serious.

If we were talking about weight lifting you could have easily said such a person needs to gain weight and no one would have batted an eye. Yet when someone questions whether someone needs to lose weight in a sport where there is high impact on a persons joints and vertebrae, where speed and quickness are the tender most desired, I believe you are intitled to that opinion. We cannot, in my opinion, ask that everyone treat women athletes the same as men, but in this one area we incline or turn our heads. To me this, though mild, is a form of hypocrisy.

 

[CocoHusky]

As of September 14, she can get served that drink.

I didn't take any offense to his post although I am a little uncomfortable when this subject comes up. Mabrey strikes me as a strange choice to single out. She's a gym rat with, if I recall correctly, a personal trainer mother. I don't question her fitness at all.

Now, Shepard look visibly tired to me near the end of last night's game and missed a 4th quarter bunny that I suspect she would never miss in the 1st quarter. So I think it's reasonable to mention that perhaps her conditioning could be better.

Neither did @msf22b, @msf22b questioned her weight, & by a specific amount. Shepard's conditioning has been questioned here and elsewhere before, that evident by her play- the inability to get up and down the floor. Marina, as you correctly state, has no such issues.

 

[bballnut90]

As of September 14, she can get served that drink.

I didn't take any offense to his post although I am a little uncomfortable when this subject comes up. Mabrey strikes me as a strange choice to single out. She's a gym rat with, if I recall correctly, a personal trainer mother. I don't question her fitness at all.

Now, Shepard look visibly tired to me near the end of last night's game and missed a 4th quarter bunny that I suspect she would never miss in the 1st quarter. So I think it's reasonable to mention that perhaps her conditioning could be better.

Mabrey has a bigger build but I don’t think she has 20 pounds to lose by any means. Players like her, Achonwa and McBride have bigger, stronger frames than many but by no means are overweight. It’s worth noting that Kristina Nelson looks much much better than she did a year ago, both in skill and in her ability to get and down the court.

Shepard is a work in progress in this regard, but it appears she’s fitting in very well into ND’s system. Kristina Nelson is another player who looks a lot trimmer and much improved from a year ago.

I don’t think conditioning was the difference in the ND game this year, besides Jessica Shepard. It was more that ND froze in the 4th and stopped playing their game while UCONN was finally able to get some momentum and ran with it. It’s a lot easier to get out to a solid lead as an underdog than it is to close out a win, especially against UCONN (the only team that ND has consistently lost to the last few years..I guess excluding Stanford). This was one of the first times where ND had a real shot to win it, and as a result it was also the first time I’ve seen ND really crack under pressure and fail to execute in a game they had a great chance to win. Hoping these 2 play again in March, I think they’re the 2 best teams once again.

 

[EricLA]

It may be style preference, but often the Notre Dame woman seem bulkier than what might be considered optimum for elite woman's BB play.
I surmise that Mabrey for example might be a real demon -20 pounds.

I'm not sure if this subject crosses taboo lines, please advise

I thought I'd address your comments in a different way. I disagree with, but it's because of my experience in watching ND over the years.

ND is not the only team where you look at the players and think "we should have a big athletic advantage over them". I think the same thing when I look at Stanford and a number of other teams.

THEN we play them. First, the TV adds at least 10 pounds on anyone's frame (I KNOW this - I've seen myself on the tube and it's horrible - nothing like reality! ). Seriously, tho, it's true.

Second, for all our fitness and athleticism, it is NOT always what ends up being our advantage. It's one thing when we play a Longwood or LA-Monroe (2 lowest RPI in WCBB at the moment) - our sheer talent and athleticism will wipe them off the floor.

But not against teams like ND and Stanford. Their kids are deceptively fit, super smart hoops players, and often seem able to disrupt our offense in ways that surprised me.

My point is over the years I've learned that you can't know squadoosh about a team by using the "eye" test. Kids who are just great hoops players can compensate in all sorts of ways.

If you watch the WNBA, are there players who could afford to lose a few lbs? Of course. Shone Schimmel was the perfect example of a kid coming out of college with all kinds of hoops skills, but she did not take her fitness seriously and pretty much flamed out after 3 years (I believe she's taking a year off this season). Not only was her fitness discussed on the BY, but by her coaches and staff of the pro team she played for, and they were NOT happy.

But that's different than losing weight. As many pointed out, body types come in all shapes and sizes, and someone like Dee, for example, for all her fitness improvements is NEVER going to have guns or a body like Dangerfield.

Just my $.02...

 

[EricLA]

I meant to add Dolson was another player who reshaped her body and fitness level - and it was pretty public on our board. Geno and the staff called her out for not playing the way we needed her to, and to her credit, she transformed her body to be as fit as she could be.

Kudos to her, but she was never going to be a "small" girl!

 

[CocoHusky]

I have no problem msf22b with what you said and how you phrased it. What you said was your opinion. The problem is, to me, societal body types and prejudicies have no relevance in sports. Sports is a society apart. Yes, women have been stigmatized and body shamed unmercifully in western society. It's been criminal. But that has little to nothing to do with IBW's and DWR's for maximum efficiency in sports. These have to do with the impact ratio's on body frames and weight bearing joints which can hinder high performance and which can create further health issues down the road. Some of them serious.

If we were talking about weight lifting you could have easily said such a person needs to gain weight and no one would have batted an eye. Yet when someone questions whether someone needs to lose weight in a sport where there is high impact on a persons joints and vertebrae, where speed and quickness are the tender most desired, I believe you are intitled to that opinion. We cannot, in my opinion, ask to everyone treat women athletes the same as men, but in this one area we incline or turn our heads. To me this, though mild, is a form of hypocrisy.

What makes this particular opinion offensive it that it continues the shaming based on an incorrect stereo type and the more incorrect observation.
It is the lazy stereotype and shaming (upon which the opinion is based) that I took offense to. It might have been easy to dismiss the first stereotype and shaming because it insulted ND.
"It may be style preference, but often the Notre Dame woman seem bulkier than what might be considered optimum for elite woman's BB play."
The example ( Marina) continues the shaming and is where the incorrect observation came in:
"I surmise that Mabrey for example might be a real demon -20 pounds."
Marina mabrey played 36 minutes in that game-she was a deamon.
Sadly we have been here before except last time it was a UCONN player-KML. The conclusion at that time from the moderators, @UConnCat and many other was it
appropriate to questions a players conditioning and best to avoid discussions about a players weight. If a person take away from that game was Marina needs to get in better condition I think that person is trying to stir the pot-AGAIN! & I fell for it AGAIN.

 

[Mdoggie]

MY THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!

 

[JordyG]

What makes this particular opinion offensive it that it continues the shaming based on an incorrect stereo type and the more incorrect observation.
It is the lazy stereotype and shaming (upon which the opinion is based) that I took offense to. It might have been easy to dismiss the first stereotype and shaming because it insulted ND.
"It may be style preference, but often the Notre Dame woman seem bulkier than what might be considered optimum for elite woman's BB play."
The example ( Marina) continues the shaming and is where the incorrect observation came in:
"I surmise that Mabrey for example might be a real demon -20 pounds."
Marina mabrey played 36 minutes in that game-she was a deamon.
Sadly we have been here before except last time it was a UCONN player-KML. The conclusion at that time from the moderators, @UConnCat and many other was it
appropriate to questions a players conditioning and best to avoid discussions about a players weight. If a person take away from that game was Marina needs to get in better condition I think that person is trying to stir the pot-AGAIN! & I fell for it AGAIN.

Well again. The idea that society has preferences and aesthetics for the human female appearance and form is reprehensible. Doubly so because those ideals change over periods, which not only makes the shaming perpetual, but sends both men and women mixed messages. But here we are not talking about appearance. The reality that weight affects quickness, athleticism and can lead to serious injury in sport is black letter law. To me msf22b was giving his opinion on performance, not some insidious critque on her ability to appeal to anyone. To me there is a distinct difference, and here I fail to see that msf22b even infers such a thing. By style preference I took this to mean either playing or coaching style, not fashion, which would be reprehensible. I fail again to see any stereotyping here.

 

[Vowelguy]

Its not the system that Geno Runs that has lead to his successes. The reason for his success is Chris Dailey and Geno's demand that the players act the UConn way both on and off the court.

I doubt it could be that simple. If it were it would be easier to replicate - particularly for folks who intimately know the system like Jamelle and Tonya.

Geno, much like Diana or Maya, possesses certain special qualities that make him impossible to duplicate.

 

[JordyG]

I doubt it could be that simple. If it were it would be easier to replicate - particularly for folks who intimately know the system like Jamelle and Tonya.

Geno, much like Diana or Maya, possesses certain special qualities that make him impossible to duplicate.

It seems to me that Geno's success has been a perfect storm or confluence of events. His questing, authoritative, well versed, knowledgeable, personable, and at times didactic personality. The addition of CD every step of the way. Her knowledge, her personality and how in many ways it ran counter to Geno's. How at UConn there were no aspirations for Geno and CD to live up to, to avoid, or attempt to replicate. How the university is set in an area where there are few distractions. How early on there were a number of emerging and natural rivalries. How there was plenty of area talent early on to build with, and how that talent was starved for a well run program to latch onto. These seem to me just a few of the reasons this program has been so effective. Please all, feel free to add more.

 

[HuskyNan]

From a female point of view - msf wasn't commenting on how Mabrey might be more attractive if she lost weight, he said she "might be a demon", which I read as more mobile/athletic, if she lost 20 pounds. This to me is a valid comment on Mabrey's basketball ability, not her appearance as a woman.

While I appreciate everyone's sensitivity towards potential insults towards women, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. msf didn't seem (to me) to have a hidden agenda behind his comments.