Conference Re-alignment Bombshell

[billybud]

Not sure where you are getting the ban on pods. I don't see it in the NCAA press release. Take a look for your self and if you see it, please let me know: Link.

The only thing I find is that if a conference has 12 or more teams, they must play a round-robin schedule within it's division. No where does it say that the divisions have to be static. Example using the ACC and adding UConn and Cincinati to make 16:

Pod A: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson
Pod B: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF
Pod C: Louisville, Virginia, VT, Cincinnati
Pod D: Syracuse, BC, UConn, Pitt

Rotation 1 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod B are a division: FSU, Miami, GT and Clemson, UNC, NCST, Duke and WF

Pod C and Pod D are a division: Louisville, Virginia, VT, Cincinnati, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Rotation 2 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod C are a division: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Louisville, Virginia, VT and Cincinnati

Pod B and Pod D are a division: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Rotation 3 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod D are a division: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Pod B and Pod C are a division: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF, Louisville, Virginia, VT and Cincinnati

Then you start back at rotation 1 and continue on forward. It falls within the guidelines that are set forth in the linked press release.

The idea of the amendment was so that one conference couldn't game the system. You don't want a conference to manipulate their CCG to give their best team the best chance to win the game and make it to the playoff.

 

[megadrone]

Few points, and really as an outsider looking in with no horse in the race:

• The ACC probably won't make a move until Notre Dame joins for football or their current contract ends
• Temple, academically, would be a reasonable fit and sits in a larger market than UConn. They're not as strong as UConn, but pretty good (~115 or 125, I think, in USN&WR). Basketball would be a reasonable fit though UConn hoops would be a better fit. Football is currently stronger than UConn but that can be cyclical. Stadium issues (Rent at the Linc and dealing with the Eagles vs current holdup and legal hoops to get OCS built) would get resolved with higher conference payout.
• ACC would have to agree on who to add. This isn't a slam dunk by any means. Tobacco road strength is diluted with all the expansion (would likely be pro UConn), FSU, Clemson, BC block may be able to block UConn, not sure if there's unanimous support for Cincinnati or if anyone even would consider Temple. Notre Dame partial football membership gives the ACC what they need in the metro Philly, NYC and Boston markets that they don't already get from BC and Syracuse. Not clear how the other old Big East schools would support a UConn expansion.

 

[megadrone]

Quoted post isn't showing up -- replying to the post about pods in an expanded ACC....
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That's what the WAC was doing in the 90s. The pod rotation plan wasn't enough to prevent the breakup but the WAC had timezone and distance issues to deal with as well.

 

[billybud]

Dayooper....

Under current rules, FBS conferences must have at least 12 members, and championship games must be between the winners of two divisions within the conference. Each division must play a round-robin schedule during the regular season in order to hold a championship game.

Council members adopted a proposal that originated with the Division I Football Oversight Committee but also approved an amendment from the Big Ten Conference. The amendment, offered by the Big Ten late last week, allows conferences with fewer than 12 members to hold championship games in football, as long as they meet one of two additional conditions: Conferences that want to play championship games must either play their championship game between division winners after round-robin competition in each division or between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin, regular-season competition between all members of the conference.


This is from the NCAA site...where do you find the NCAA availability of pods? The sticky point is the wording about the winner of two divisions...it doesn't say the winners of three divisions...

I think it is a big stretch to assume that they meant anything more than what has been current...two divisions...except they did amend that to allow a conference with less than 12 members to hold a CCG...if they played round robin and pitted the top two teams.



College football: FBS conferences with fewer than 12 members now able to hold championship game

 

[btstimpy]

Few points, and really as an outsider looking in with no horse in the race:

• ACC would have to agree on who to add. This isn't a slam dunk by any means. Tobacco road strength is diluted with all the expansion (would likely be pro UConn), FSU, Clemson, BC block may be able to block UConn, not sure if there's unanimous support for Cincinnati or if anyone even would consider Temple. Notre Dame partial football membership gives the ACC what they need in the metro Philly, NYC and Boston markets that they don't already get from BC and Syracuse. Not clear how the other old Big East schools would support a UConn expansion.

It will come down to what ESPN will pay for. The ACC could get to 16 leaving ND in its current 5 games for next 20 years they are signed up for as 17. That would work.

UConn would have support. Biggest objection from southern members now is travel. That's why put USF on list to balance. Florida is big enough to support 4 in P5.

 

[dayooper]

Of course...except that was denied by the NCAA...largely due to the Big Ten's objections.

The NCAA dictates that you must have two divisions or a round robin....the "pods" as you described, the ACC was very interested in.

How was that denied by the NCAA?

Dayooper....

Under current rules, FBS conferences must have at least 12 members, and championship games must be between the winners of two divisions within the conference. Each division must play a round-robin schedule during the regular season in order to hold a championship game.

Council members adopted a proposal that originated with the Division I Football Oversight Committee but also approved an amendment from the Big Ten Conference. The amendment, offered by the Big Ten late last week, allows conferences with fewer than 12 members to hold championship games in football, as long as they meet one of two additional conditions: Conferences that want to play championship games must either play their championship game between division winners after round-robin competition in each division or between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin, regular-season competition between all members of the conference.


This is from the NCAA site...where do you find the NCAA availability of pods? The sticky point is the wording about the winner of two divisions...it doesn't say the winners of three divisions...

I think it is a big stretch to assume that they meant anything more than what has been current...two divisions...except they did amend that to allow a conference with less than 12 members to hold a CCG...if they played round robin and pitted the top two teams.



College football: FBS conferences with fewer than 12 members now able to hold championship game

It is two divisions, they just change every 2 years. The teams in each division still play a round robin, they just rotate through the league every six years.

 

[btstimpy]

The threat that Delaney saw would be a method to let Notre Dame play in a pod and play for the CCG as a pod winner...while still playing their national schedule.

It was more than that. Delaney wants to prevent a conference playoff or tournament. If you remove the rule it enables that without intending to. The rotating pods into 2 divisions works within the rules.

 

[billybud]

As long as you keep just two divisions...you can rotate like top.....

I didn't follow for a moment....

 

[Adios]

It will come down to what ESPN will pay for. The ACC could get to 16 leaving ND in its current 5 games for next 20 years they are signed up for as 17. That would work.

UConn would have support. Biggest objection from southern members now is travel. That's why put USF on list to balance. Florida is big enough to support 4 in P5.

Your southern members are pretty dumb. They forget there's more people up north?

 

[dayooper]

Haven't heard this from UVA folks, but if true ESPN is pushing it. The best AAC candidates are:
1. Navy - 6th ND game.
2. UConn - 3.5 million in CT, NYC interest.
3. South Florida - 4 million metro area growing at 10%.
4. Temple - 4 million television market.

1. Navy - Not sure Navy wants to up to the P5, they just don't have the size to. I thought there was a rule that the Naval Academy recruits had to be under a certain size. I could be wrong or that has changed, but if that's still in place, than it's a deal breaker. I understand why ND may want them in there, but isn't there some sort of rule that they can't include BC as one of the five ACC games every year? Could be wrong on that?
2. UConn - No Brainer.
3. USF - Why? They already have a great hold on the state of Florida with FSU and, to a lesser extent, Miami. What does USF give the ACC that the other two don't.
4. Temple - I can sorta see it, but with Pitt already in the fold and if you get UConn it would be a little redundant.

 

[dayooper]

As long as you keep just two divisions...you can rotate like top.....

I didn't follow for a moment....

Yup, and for the ACC, it leaves one conference game for rivalries in those years when rivals aren't in the same division.

 

[huskyrob1]

1. Navy - Not sure Navy wants to up to the P5, they just don't have the size to. I thought there was a rule that the Naval Academy recruits had to be under a certain size. I could be wrong or that has changed, but if that's still in place, than it's a deal breaker. I understand why ND may want them in there, but isn't there some sort of rule that they can't include BC as one of the five ACC games every year? Could be wrong on that?
2. UConn - No Brainer.
3. USF - Why? They already have a great hold on the state of Florida with FSU and, to a lesser extent, Miami. What does USF give the ACC that the other two don't.
4. Temple - I can sorta see it, but with Pitt already in the fold and if you get UConn it would be a little redundant.

Only one that makes sense is UCONN, reviving old rivalries in football and especially basketball with BC, Syracuse, and Pitt, would generate a lot of interest on several levels in all the major Northeast markets.

 

[History Geek]

Not sure where you are getting the ban on pods. I don't see it in the NCAA press release. Take a look for your self and if you see it, please let me know: Link.

The only thing I find is that if a conference has 12 or more teams, they must play a round-robin schedule within it's division. No where does it say that the divisions have to be static. Example using the ACC and adding UConn and Cincinati to make 16:

Pod A: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson
Pod B: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF
Pod C: Louisville, Virginia, VT, Cincinnati
Pod D: Syracuse, BC, UConn, Pitt

Rotation 1 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod B are a division: FSU, Miami, GT and Clemson, UNC, NCST, Duke and WF

Pod C and Pod D are a division: Louisville, Virginia, VT, Cincinnati, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Rotation 2 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod C are a division: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Louisville, Virginia, VT and Cincinnati

Pod B and Pod D are a division: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Rotation 3 (2 years):

Pod A and Pod D are a division: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Syracuse, BC, UConn and Pitt

Pod B and Pod C are a division: UNC, NCST, Duke, WF, Louisville, Virginia, VT and Cincinnati

Then you start back at rotation 1 and continue on forward. It falls within the guidelines that are set forth in the linked press release.

The idea of the amendment was so that one conference couldn't game the system. You don't want a conference to manipulate their CCG to give their best team the best chance to win the game and make it to the playoff.

Yes, yes, 1000 times yes! Someone please send this to the ACC offices!

 

[dayooper]

Only one that makes sense is UCONN, reviving old rivalries in football and especially basketball with BC, Syracuse, and Pitt, would generate a lot of interest on several levels in all the major Northeast markets.

Out of those four, yes. From an outsiders perspective, I would think Cincinnati or Houston would fit better than Navy, Temple and USF. Then again, I don't think anything happens with the P5 until Texas decides what it wants to do in 2024. We may see big changes as the Big10, Big12 and Pac12 media rights and GoRs expire.

Will they form a mega conference? No, but there may some sort of media alliance between the three (or the Big10, Pac12 and parts of the Big12). Bundle all three conferences (or two with Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and someone else joining the Pac).

 

[dayooper]

Yes, yes, 1000 times yes! Someone please send this to the ACC offices!

I like this one better:

Pod A: Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and ISU
Pod B: Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Northwestern and Illinois
Pod C: Purdue, Indiana, MSU, Michigan and OSU
Pod D: PSU, Maryland, Rutgers, UConn and WVU

Yes, I know WVU has as good of a shot of being in the Big10 as Liberty, but I couldn't think of a better school that quickly. Same with ISU.

 

[History Geek]

I like this one better:

Pod A: Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and ISU
Pod B: Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Northwestern and Illinois
Pod C: Purdue, Indiana, MSU, Michigan and OSU
Pod D: PSU, Maryland, Rutgers, UConn and WVU

Yes, I know WVU has as good of a shot of being in the Big10 as Liberty, but I couldn't think of a better school that quickly. Same with ISU.

And send this one to Delany.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

The main problem for USF is they're not good at anything. They're an abomination in basketball and at best mediocre in football. Add that they're a large commuter school with weak academics in an area the ACC already has a footprint = they aren't going to the ACC.

 

[billybud]

Been talked about....rotating divisions....hasn't gotten any traction.

Not much support from traditionalists....the southern programs wouldn't mind a North-South Division split...but the northern schools squeal every time that is brought up. Regionalism makes all sort of rivalry sense to me.

You can bet, that if there is a move to go further to the northeast, that the southern schools will want a North-South divisional split.

Every faction has its agenda....The Tobacco Road group like having Duke, UNC, Virginia together without FSU and Clemson and don't want to split it differently.

Georgia Tech likes the Tobacco Road division it is in and counts Duke and UNC as major football rivals.

FSU and Clemson aren't enamored about travelling to Boston and Syracuse, you never see their fans in the return game, and these far flung opponents have little chance of becoming a rivalry.

None of the programs want to be locked out of playing one of Miami and FSU for the perceived recruiting benefits of playing in Florida.

The Virginia contingent may (I do not know this) want to keep VT and Virginia in the same division.

Every talk about division structure at the ACC meetings ends up a stalemate.

Put FSU, Miami, and Clemson in the same group (as they should be in a North-South) and you may effectively create a football conference and a basketball conference, both housed in the ACC.

And, then there is Notre Dame hanging about like the spectre of Christmas Future...and everybody wants them on the schedule.

 

[btstimpy]

1. Navy - Not sure Navy wants to up to the P5, they just don't have the size to. I thought there was a rule that the Naval Academy recruits had to be under a certain size. I could be wrong or that has changed, but if that's still in place, than it's a deal breaker. I understand why ND may want them in there, but isn't there some sort of rule that they can't include BC as one of the five ACC games every year? Could be wrong on that?
2. UConn - No Brainer.
3. USF - Why? They already have a great hold on the state of Florida with FSU and, to a lesser extent, Miami. What does USF give the ACC that the other two don't.
4. Temple - I can sorta see it, but with Pitt already in the fold and if you get UConn it would be a little redundant.

Look up flight times for Tallahassee, Miami, Atlanta, and Greenville to Tampa versus any of those places to Philadelphia. You will answer your own question. Plus 10 percent population growth and 50,000 students. As much as Ohio State.

 

[billybud]

From the 2015 ACC spring meeting:


The easy answer is to add another conference game. But athletic directors voted last year to stay at eight, continuing the scheduling conundrum. With eight games in place, two ideas have been discussed more than the others: eliminating divisions and eliminating permanent crossover opponents.

There is no traction to get rid of the division format. So scratch that.

Eliminating permanent crossover opponents is a bit trickier. Some of the most traditional rivalry games in the ACC happen between teams in separate divisions. Getting rid of Miami-Florida State, and NC State-North Carolina are nonstarters.

But Swofford did say one scheduling model they have looked at would try to keep all traditional rivalry games within the same division, allowing for the elimination of the permanent crossover opponent. To do that, divisions would have to be reshuffled.

There is no traction for that yet, either.

Swofford said...
"Different people will make different assumptions about people that have to play each other every year."

 

[dayooper]

Been talked about....rotating divisions....hasn't gotten any traction.

Not much support from traditionalists....the southern programs wouldn't mind a North-South Division split...but the northern schools squeal every time that is brought up. Regionalism makes all sort of rivalry sense to me.

You can bet, that if there is a move to go further to the northeast, that the southern schools will want a North-South divisional split.

Every faction has its agenda....The Tobacco Road group like having Duke, UNC, Virginia together without FSU and Clemson and don't want to split it differently.

Georgia Tech likes the Tobacco Road division it is in and counts Duke and UNC as major football rivals.

FSU and Clemson aren't enamored about travelling to Boston and Syracuse, you never see their fans in the return game, and these far flung opponents have little chance of becoming a rivalry.

None of the programs want to be locked out of playing one of Miami and FSU for the perceived recruiting benefits of playing in Florida.

The Virginia contingent may (I do not know this) want to keep VT and Virginia in the same division.

Every talk about division structure at the ACC meetings ends up a stalemate.

Put FSU, Miami, and Clemson in the same group (as they should be in a North-South) and you may effectively create a football conference and a basketball conference, both housed in the ACC.

And, then there is Notre Dame hanging about like the spectre of Christmas Future...and everybody wants them on the schedule.

I agree with all of it and, as a fan, it makes perfect sense. Yet, do the university presidents fell the same way? Was it in the conferences best interest to take a falling Syracuse to get Miami? My guess is it was, but how many fans of southern schools except for Miami were interested in Syracuse? How many fans loved the fact that Virginia's legislature strong armed the ACC to get VT into the ACC? Sometimes the needs of the university/conference as a whole outweighs the needs of the individual athletic programs. I don't know the breaking point for the ACC (or any conference for that matter), but there is one.

 

[megadrone]

Only one that makes sense is UCONN, reviving old rivalries in football and especially basketball with BC, Syracuse, and Pitt, would generate a lot of interest on several levels in all the major Northeast markets.

What football rivalries? The only school from the Big East that UConn played somewhat regularly before 2000 was Rutgers, and even that was on hiatus for nearly 20 years.

 

[billybud]

Yep...I don't think that the Big Ten Ohio State, Michigan, MSU fans were salivating about adding Rutgers.

My assumption is that a conference will do that which its media consultants say has a bigger pay off.


However, sometimes, as when FSU, Clemson, GT and Miami banded together to defeat Tobacco Road and add Louisville, the schools can override the conference.

 

[btstimpy]

Yep...I don't think that the Big Ten Ohio State, Michigan, MSU fans were salivating about adding Rutgers.

My assumption is that a conference will do that which its media consultants say has a bigger pay off.


However, sometimes, as when FSU, Clemson, GT and Miami banded together to defeat Tobacco Road and add Louisville, the schools can override the conference.

Billy, Louisville has basketball. Tobacco Road doesn't feel overrided.

 

[btstimpy]

ACC has footprint in Florida. i'm not sure we do in Tampa. ACC has footprint in New York. Do we in New York City?

 

[huskyrob1]

What football rivalries? The only school from the Big East that UConn played somewhat regularly before 2000 was Rutgers, and even that was on hiatus for nearly 20 years.

First of all I SAID ESPECIALLY BASKETBALL!!!! CAN YOU READ???
BEFORE 2000??? WHY? FOOTBALL WAS MORE IMPORTANT BEFORE THE BICENTENNIAL???? AND IF YOU DON'T RECALL A BUDDING FOOTBALL RIVALRY POST 2000 BETWEEN BC AND UCONN before the ACC raid, then you must have had your head in the sand. We also played Pitt and Syracuse in some memorable contests. Like the 2OT win over Pitt.

 

[billybud]

Billy, Louisville has basketball. Tobacco Road doesn't feel overrided.

Yeah...but K and Williams wanted UConn.

 

[dayooper]

ACC has footprint in Florida. i'm not sure we do in Tampa. ACC has footprint in New York. Do we in New York City?

I don't think USF would give you that much better of a hold on Tampa. I know it's not the best representative of fandom, but the NY Times map doesn't even have USF in the top three for Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater. It's Florida and FSU with at about 25% each with others (Miami, OSU etc) about 7%. I guess they could, but I'm of the opinion they don't. I think FSU and Miami give you enough.

There is no college team that can totally capture NYC. It's a hodge podge of schools with Syracuse, ND, Michigan, PSU, Rutgers, UConn, Florida and even Oregon represented. So many people move there from other areas and bring their fandom with them, Temple doesn't even register. With PSU such a presence in Philly, Temple barely registers.

UConn is the last true available piece left in the NYC/NE corridor. Temple, UMass, Buffalo and, if they ever build their football program to compete in FBS, Villanova could all be considered, but they are much more of a work in progress than UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers and BC were/are. If the ACC wants a greater foothold in NYC, the only consideration is UConn.

 

[btstimpy]

I don't think USF would give you that much better of a hold on Tampa. I know it's not the best representative of fandom, but the NY Times map doesn't even have USF in the top three for Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater. It's Florida and FSU with at about 25% each with others (Miami, OSU etc) about 7%. I guess they could, but I'm of the opinion they don't. I think FSU and Miami give you enough.

There is no college team that can totally capture NYC. It's a hodge podge of schools with Syracuse, ND, Michigan, PSU, Rutgers, UConn, Florida and even Oregon represented. So many people move there from other areas and bring their fandom with them, Temple doesn't even register. With PSU such a presence in Philly, Temple barely registers.

UConn is the last true available piece left in the NYC/NE corridor. Temple, UMass, Buffalo and, if they ever build their football program to compete in FBS, Villanova could all be considered, but they are much more of a work in progress than UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers and BC were/are. If the ACC wants a greater foothold in NYC, the only consideration is UConn.

Dayooper, I agree UConn is best available choice in the North. But the ACC isn't just North

Billy can tell you if USF is worthless.

 

[dayooper]

Dayooper, I agree UConn is best available choice in the North. But the ACC isn't just North

Billy can tell you if USF is worthless.

I agree. That's UConns issue right now; they don't have a viable partner to join any P5 league. Could Cincinnati be a partner? Not for the Big10 and I think they're a stretch for the ACC. Houston is another possibility, but they are too far for the ACC and don't bring enough money for the Big10. The Florida directional schools don't bring enough and there isn't anybody else that isn't a project.