Caron Butler on how former players view UConn | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Caron Butler on how former players view UConn

Kenny11 said:
Why can't they disagree with Calhoun on one issue?
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Because they are sticking up for someone who isn’t the same KO they knew. Jim Calhoun is the reason these players came to UConn and love UConn. Not Kevin Ollie.
 
aceboon said:
...and you know KO more than they do?
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Probably. If you listen to the podcast Caron didn't even know when UConn games were on. But he's going to know whats going on behind the scenes.
 
superjohn said:
What are all these other offers Ollie had? UConn walked away from the contract because Ollie broke the terms of the contract by breaking NCAA rules, lying about it to UConn and the NCAA and he stopped doing his job.
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This has always sounded, to me, like the "AJ Price got a longer suspension than Marcus Williams because he lied and Marcus told the truth" that some people apparently believe.
 
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superjohn said:
You talk such nonsense, where was Ollie going to leave to after 2014? Ollie didn't scramble for Gilbert and he wasn't damaged goods. Gilbert was a healthy McDonald's All-American type player when Ollie secured his pledge.

What are all these other offers Ollie had? UConn walked away from the contract because Ollie broke the terms of the contract by breaking NCAA rules, lying about it to UConn and the NCAA and he stopped doing his job.
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I also love how we "scrambled" for Gilbert, who committed in July of 2015, well before the fall signing period.
 
XLCenterFan said:
The bottom line is Ollie got fired for losing and the school blamed it on minor violations. Pay the damn guy and let's move on!
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Why pay a guy who's contract (which is the only reason you'd pay him) says you don't have to pay him?

UConn chose to exercise its right to fire Ollie for cause because he was a terrible coach who wasn't doing the job. They were able to fire him "for cause" because he broke rules, lied to UConn and lied to the NCAA. UConn isn't required to exercise the right to fire him and if he was winning it probably wouldn't have. That's fine.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Why pay a guy who's contract (which is the only reason you'd pay him) says you don't have to pay him?

UConn chose to exercise its right to fire Ollie for cause because he was a terrible coach who wasn't doing the job. They were able to fire him "for cause" because he broke rules, lied to UConn and lied to the NCAA. UConn isn't required to exercise the right to fire him and if he was winning it probably wouldn't have. That's fine.
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I'm not the overly litigious type. In life, there's the contract, and there's what you SHOULD do. I've had plenty of dealings with people where the contract (or agreement) gets informally renegotiated or simply ripped up after facts or situations change.

We all know that if Ollie was winning, the school would have probably his defended his violations.

This is not a good look for UCONN, and I hope Danny looked Benedict in the eye before he came on and told him: "none of these stunts with me pal." Instead of dragging this out and paying lawyers, just pay Ollie, and let's keep it moving. Sometimes, even when you don't want to, you have to pay someone off and put it behind you. Ollie is family, right? Families don't pull this stuff on each other. I have Ollie's back in this spot.
 
Excalibur said:
I also love how we "scrambled" for Gilbert, who committed in July of 2015, well before the fall signing period.
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Why don't you pick a coherent position, and then we can debate. On one hand, the current players are bad, but apparently the recruiting under Ollie was excellent. Which is it?

And are you arguing the AAC was good for UConn basketball?
 
Kenny11 said:
Most of the former players, understandably, feel this way. Most feel Ollie deserved to be fired for his performance, the ncaa violations were minor and much worse was tolerated in the past and would have been tolerated if Ollie was winning. Also, what Glenn Miller did was pretty disgusting and the players who love and will always love Calhoun, do not like that he is on Miller’s side with this.
I know what I said doesn’t really fly around here but that’s what it is.
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Agree, Calhoun aligning with Miller is a mistake. Miller is in D1 coaching no man’s land. Unlikely most head coaches will hire a disloyal assistant because minor or major rules get broken at all schools. He’s also very unpopular in the player community because he’s viewed as a “rat”.
 
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I like seeing the board turn slowly on CB, as they did on RA. Because they have a different perspective. Remember all these guys played ball in college and saw rules broken every day. Not all at Uconn, just across the board. Think THAT might slant their perspective.?
 
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XLCenterFan said:
Ollie is family, right? Families don't pull this stuff on each other.
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I recollect the first time I said this to a friend in a situation where it made great sense to do so. He said, "Sure they do." While that wasn't and isn't the case in my family, and in healthy families, I had to admit that he had a point. As Jerry Seinfeld once said, "Have ya been out there?"

The only thing I know for certain in all of this is that I don't know anything for certain. That puts me in position to say, "You may be right," or, "You're probably right" to quite a few people who post in these threads when this subject comes. The only question is which people to say this to. Or is it perhaps all of them?
 
Madmannsucks said:
I like seeing the board turn slowly on CB, as they did on RA. Because they have a different perspective. Remember all these guys played ball in college and saw rules broken every day. Not all at Uconn, just across the board. Think THAT might slant their perspective.?
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Who on the board has turned on Caron Butler?
 
No one is happy about this situation. Turning a blind eye to it, doesn't mean he's right. You can feel bad for your friend and still understand the University's position. As another poster said, pony up the settlement dollars if you all feel so bad for KO.

While I believe there was just cause (which we don't have to argue about as the court's will decide) Ollie alienated a whole string of players who felt they had to leave to be successful. How many players underachieved? Accepted Losing? How many transferred out and how many more would have if Danny not tried exceptionally hard to retain them. Not only did Ollie cheat and get caught, he set us up for this dismal trek in the desert. How does Caron feel about how a generation of UConn players getting fed up enough to leave or want to leave. There was obviously something wrong with his relationship with players.

Fair or not, I place the blame for this whole awful stretch on Ollie, his impact is still being felt..
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Why don't you pick a coherent position, and then we can debate. On one hand, the current players are bad, but apparently the recruiting under Ollie was excellent. Which is it?
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Ollie brought in some players with great rankings next to their names. They either left or haven't lived up to the rankings. Where's the discrepancy?
 
I LOVE the avatar Drumguy...I need to make a run to the Alchemist soon.

Regardless of what happened, or how this situation deteriorated, we need to put this to bed. We cannot go back and change what happened. At this point, we have 2 options: pay him and it's over, or continue to litigate. No matter what, I think UCONN looks like the villain, and I highly prefer the first option. It's not like we can sue Ollie for the damages incurred to the program, which were likely more attributable to conference realignment than anything he did or did not do.
 
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XLCenterFan said:
I'm not the overly litigious type. In life, there's the contract, and there's what you SHOULD do. I've had plenty of dealings with people where the contract (or agreement) gets informally renegotiated or simply ripped up after facts or situations change.

We all know that if Ollie was winning, the school would have probably his defended his violations.

This is not a good look for UCONN, and I hope Danny looked Benedict in the eye before he came on and told him: "none of these stunts with me pal." Instead of dragging this out and paying lawyers, just pay Ollie, and let's keep it moving. Sometimes, even when you don't want to, you have to pay someone off and put it behind you. Ollie is family, right? Families don't pull this stuff on each other. I have Ollie's back in this spot.
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I guess I completely disagree on what UConn Should Do. They had a coach who had become lazy, and largely incompetent. He had stopped doing the job to the best of his ability. He had quit on UConn. He wasn't putting in the work recruiting, teaching players or even on the sidelines. As a result he needed to stop being our coach. So you think that a guy who stopped performing for two years and who got paid over $6M over those two years, was somehow owed $10M not to have to work at all? I can see no moral or ethical case for Kevin getting any money from UConn. I can see a case for him paying some back for being a total slacker while he was being paid. Fortunately, UConn drafted the contract well enough that some of Ollie's many transgressions allowed them to fire him for cause and not have to pay him not to work.

Who expects to be paid not to work? Since when is that normal? Sure it applies in some contracts with athletes and coaches, but that's simply the athlete applying the letter of the contract against the employer. The Red Sox paid Jose Offerman for several years after he stopped being able to play (and now Pedroia as well). That's not the team doing the "right thing". The right thing would see them not accepting that pay since they aren't earning it. Kevin is certainly not earning any money from UConn.
 
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superjohn said:
Who on the board has turned on Caron Butler?
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Slowly, it will happen. Most on this board want KO to silently go away. I get that(although I am not in that camp). Saw it happen with Allen. Former players have a different perspective. And while they are loyal to Coach JC, as one poster noted, not so much to Miller.
 
HuskyHawk said:
I guess I completely disagree on what UConn Should Do. They had a coach who had become lazy, and largely incompetent. He had stopped doing the job to the best of his ability. He had quit on UConn. He wasn't putting in the work recruiting, teaching players or even on the sidelines. As a result he needed to stop being our coach. So you think that a guy who stopped performing for two years and who got paid over $6M over those two years, was somehow owed $10M not to have to work at all? I can see no moral or ethical case for Kevin getting any money from UConn. I can see a case for him paying some back for being a total slacker while he was being paid. Fortunately, UConn drafted the contract well enough that some of Ollie's many transgressions allowed them to fire him for cause and not have to pay him not to work.

Who expects to be paid not to work? Since when is that normal? Sure it applies in some contracts with athletes and coaches, but that's simply the athlete applying the letter of the contract against the employer. The Red Sox paid Jose Offerman for several years after he stopped being able to play (and now Pedroia as well). That's not the team doing the "right thing". The right thing would see them not accepting that pay since they aren't earning it. Kevin is certainly not earning any money from UConn.
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Unless you're on the staff, or have a super inside information connection, I don't know how we can judge how hard Ollie was working. To say he "quit" on UCONN is quite a statement that is pretty much unable to be proven. I always thought our fall was much more related to conference realignment than who our coach was. There's so many moving parts in a college hoops season/program, that we cannot control the variables well enough to predict what would have happened otherwise. Therefore, we cannot point to any one reason for why we are not where we, as a fan base, want to be right now. To solely blame KO is wrong, and to pretend that we fired him for violations is also wrong. We let him go because the team was not winning and the fan base wanted change. Pay him off and let's forget about all of this already.
 
XLCenterFan said:
The bottom line is Ollie got fired for losing and the school blamed it on minor violations. Pay the damn guy and let's move on!
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You must realize that that is a flat out false statement, right?

Kevin Ollie repeated broke NCAA rules in violation of his contract. He repeatedly lied to his bosses about it and then repeatedly lied to the NCAA about it. His violations caused two UConn players to be declared ineligible for games and caused the school to be sanctioned. Kevin received a 3 year show cause penalty. That isn't a sanction given for "minor violations."

XLCenterFan said:
Ollie is family, right? Families don't pull this stuff on each other. I have Ollie's back in this spot.
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I'm sure he's grateful for your support.

This is $10M business contract not cousin Jimmy scratching uncle Wally's car. But let's go with your analogy. Do families publicly accuse each of racism? Do families threaten to smear a beloved Hall of Fame coach's reputation unless they get a payoff? There is a villain in all this but it isn't UConn.
 
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CL82 said:
You must realize that that is a flat out false statement, right?

Kevin Ollie repeated broke NCAA rules in violation of his contract. He repeatedly lied to his bosses about it and then repeatedly lied to the NCAA about it. His violations caused two UConn players to be declared ineligible for games and caused the school to be sanctioned. Kevin received a 3 year show cause penalty. That isn't a sanction given for "minor violations."
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It's not a false statement. It's literally what happened. I may have mischaracterized the violations as minor, which I could be wrong about, but everyone knows he didn't get fired for the violations. He got fired for losing. Having had this conversation with countless fans of the program, I always thought that this was just common knowledge. I have yet to hear anyone agree with the statement: "KO got fired for violations." We all know why he got fired.
 
XLCenterFan said:
It's not a false statement. It's literally what happened. I may have mischaracterized the violations as minor, which I could be wrong about, but everyone knows he didn't get fired for the violations. He got fired for losing. Having had this conversation with countless fans of the program, I always thought that this was just common knowledge. I have yet to hear anyone agree with the statement: "KO got fired for violations." We all know why he got fired.
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I disagree. The pattern of behavior - repeated NCAA violations and repeated lies to the administration would have led to Ollie's firing regardless. The NCAA would have kneecapped us otherwise. Ever hear of the failure to monitor penalty? Best case scenario, that's a level II violation, but under these circumstances without taking corrective action it would be a level I and for a school that has already been sanctioned previously it would have been devastating.

But as @HuskyHawk pointed out it's irrelevant whether UConn would have fired him if he was winning. KO had breached his contract in a way that he was not legally entitled to get paid. If you are going to suck at your job, it's best not breach your contract so you can be let go for cause.

FWIW, if you have to say that KO's violation were minor to make your point, you don't have one.
 
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CL82 said:
I disagree. The pattern of behavior - repeated NCAA violations and repeated lies to the administration would have led to Ollie's firing regardless. The NCAA would have kneecapped us otherwise. Ever hear of the failure to monitor penalty? Best case scenario, that's a level II violation, but under these circumstances without taking corrective action it would be a level I and for a school that has already been sanctioned previously it would have been devastating.

But as @HuskyHawk pointed out it's irrelevant whether UConn would have fired him if he was winning. KO had breached his contract in way that he was not legally entitled to get paid. If you are going to suck at your job, it's best not breach your contract so you can be let go for cause.

FWIW, if you have to say that KO's violation were minor to make your point, you don't have one.
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So you can say with a straight face, and believe it in your heart, that KO got fired for violations?

He would have been let go with or without the violations. Had he been winning, we would have defended his violations. Therefore, we fired him for losing, and shouldn't blame it on violations. To end this mess, just pay him and call it a lesson learned. No one in this situation looks good anymore...not even us on the BY! lol
 
XLCenterFan said:
So you can say with a straight face, and believe it in your heart, that KO got fired for violations?
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Yep, but that point is irrelevant to analysis of whether or not he was entitled to payment. Good rule of thumb when your employer says don't this or we will fire you, don't do it.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Why don't you pick a coherent position, and then we can debate. On one hand, the current players are bad, but apparently the recruiting under Ollie was excellent. Which is it?

And are you arguing the AAC was good for UConn basketball?
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Utterly amazing that the king of the incoherent strawman uses coherent in a sentence.
He's not saying anything about the players - he's saying you're wrong, again. And you're coming back with a strawman, again...
 
CL82 said:
Yep, but that point is irrelevant to analysis of whether or not he was entitled to payment. Good rule of thumb when your employer says don't this or we will fire you, don't do it.
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I don't believe you - you know he got fired for losing...but I enjoy the healthy and friendly discussion/debate.
 
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