Cant win if we depend on Olander...

[Prezidint]

Well - I'd like to try to refute the +/- on Olander, which is awful, but I can't. For whatever reason, his +/- is just terrible, and it has been terrible every time he has gotten on the floor.

So the +/- is beyond dispute.

What's not beyond dispute is what it means. It certainly does not simply implicate a single player. It certainly does implicate a mix of players.

To say, "I don't know why, but the +/- says so," ignores what we can all see on the court. I may take the time later to track what happened when Tyler was in the game. Maybe he doesn't play good help D. Maybe the offense stalls. But if his guy isn't scoring in bunches, then it's hard to say it's his fault, rather than it's the fault of him and the team on the court with him.

I'm curious enough to check it out later.

 

[sparky]

The problem was that they only respected Lamb. When he went into the middle, they collapsed before we could get him the ball. They're main goal was to take away Lamb. And they did.

A zone makes iso nearly impossible if you don't have the handle to split the defenders consistently. Kemba had it; Lamb doesn't.

I agree in part. Perhaps JL in the middle would create problems for us, but guards can split the defenders, although they do scary stuff with the ball. Giff can his that short jumper and that may have freed up the wings and the low post. TO looked low , but tried difficult bounce passes to AD and AO.

 

[businesslawyer]

Wow. Calling out TO - the guy was all over the place today. He was all over the ball. Him and Niels both have a good nose for the ball, and they're both players who don't stop moving. Maybe it's a white-guy thing - you're not going to out-leap them, or out-quick them, so you might as well out work them.

Let me put it this way - if TO hits 2 of the short jumpers he missed, every single poster in this thread would be calling him the player of the game. Kid led the team in assists with 4 (only 12 for the team total, OUCH), and was second with boards with 8, with only 1 foul and one TO. He did his part, plus some. Get your heads out of your asses, hater buttheads.

I don't disagree with that, but so what? You might as well said that if A Rod gets hits in the world series instead of making out, he would have had a great game.

To win basketball games you have to make shots.

 

[businesslawyer]

Plus minus is obviously a bunch of crap just watch the game.........Tyler was fine, he rebounded the ball, is 3X the passer either Roscoe or Alex are and he worked hard. Alex was in foul trouble, Roscoe was in Storrs the last 2 games what are our options. Tyler did fine and anyone seeing anything other than that just doesn't want him to!!

Plus minus is not crap -- it's in some respects the only thing that is important.

Sometimes, teams are better when certain players are on the floor for all types of reasons that you never see. Spacing on offense. Positioning and decisions on helping or not helping on D. Boxing out. The rhythm and decisions on passing. And even the confidence that they inspire in their teammates.

The plus minus stat, over a period of games, is the single most important stat that they keep.

 

[Prezidint]

I don't disagree with that, but so what? You might as well said that if A Rod gets hits in the world series instead of making out, he would have had a great game.

Crappy analogy, because, other than making errors, A Rod can't impact the game very much other than hitting.
A better analogy would be football, where a backfield runner runs for 90 yards, recovers a key fumble, makes 3 tackles on special teams, blocks a punt, and drops 3 passes, 2 of which are late in the game and obvious.

ARod goes 1 for 5 and he's a bum, no matter what gems he turns in the infield - that's just baseball.

Olander led the team in assists and was 2nd in rebounding. That alone means he had a good game. He was 2 for 7. If he hits 1, that's 3 for 7 and as good as anybody else. 1 more and he's our ace.

For want of those two shots it's dumb to say he had a bad game - sometimes shots don't fall.

There are many more facets to basketball than baseball.

Your case is dismissed.

 

[businesslawyer]

Crappy analogy, because, other than making errors, A Rod can't impact the game very much other than hitting.
A better analogy would be football, where a backfield runner runs for 90 yards, recovers a key fumble, makes 3 tackles on special teams, blocks a punt, and drops 3 passes, 2 of which are late in the game and obvious.

ARod goes 1 for 5 and he's a bum, no matter what gems he turns in the infield - that's just baseball.

Olander led the team in assists and was 2nd in rebounding. That alone means he had a good game. He was 2 for 7. If he hits 1, that's 3 for 7 and as good as anybody else. 1 more and he's our ace.

For want of those two shots it's dumb to say he had a bad game - sometimes shots don't fall.

There are many more facets to basketball than baseball.

Your case is dismissed.

Olander's floor game was o.k. It wasn't great. It was o.k. It was o.k. enough to have supported him being on the floor if he could make a shot.

And, fwiw, if you're going to point out every time on the boneyard that someone overplays an analogy, you are going to be an extremely busy man!

 

[mauconnfan]

Plus minus is not crap -- it's in some respects the only thing that is important.

Sometimes, teams are better when certain players are on the floor for all types of reasons that you never see. Spacing on offense. Positioning and decisions on helping or not helping on D. Boxing out. The rhythm and decisions on passing. And even the confidence that they inspire in their teammates.

The plus minus stat, over a period of games, is the single most important stat that they keep.

Plus minus may not always be "crap" biz, but it obviously was yesterday........Tylers minutes were much better than Roscoes, counting defense also (not that Tyler plays defense as well as Roscoe but Roscoe brought nothing to the table, he was lost) so right there I can only question it at best??

 

[ford82]

I didn't see the game, but in the highlights I watched James Southerland hit big threes and Olander couldn't move quickly enough to contest. Those were critical plays in the game.

 

[businesslawyer]

Plus minus may not always be "crap" biz, but it obviously was yesterday........Tylers minutes were much better than Roscoes, counting defense also (not that Tyler plays defense as well as Roscoe but Roscoe brought nothing to the table, he was lost) so right there I can only question it at best??

Statistics can only be analyzed in conjunction with means and standard deviations. (Professor Stewart at Trinity would be so proud). Is it possible that, over one game, someone gets lucky or unlucky by how everyone else plays while they're in (or sitting)? yes, of course.

But over the course of a few games, much less a season, it tells a big story.

 

[mauconnfan]

Statistics can only be analyzed in conjunction with means and standard deviations. (Professor Stewart at Trinity would be so proud). Is it possible that, over one game, someone gets lucky or unlucky by how everyone else plays while they're in (or sitting)? yes, of course.

But over the course of a few games, much less a season, it tells a big story.

Again very possible but not the end all. Yesterday was proof for sure.....but more than likely the pattern would tell a good part of the story agreed. Plus how can I disagree with you after throwing "Statistics can only be analyzed in conjunction with means and standard deviations" at me????

 

[Chief00]

I agree with businesslawyer it is really all about plus/minus - play someone 40 minutes with a positive plus minus and you win every time. It is that simple. Alex's spin move was one of the best moves he ever made and then he picks up his 4th foul and he is never seen from again. Rather strange.

As I said, I thought Tyler played pretty good, just need to manage his time much better. We don't have the scoring this year to climb out of holes and come out on top.
We flashed Lamb to the foul line a couple times, I would like to see that more against a zone, especially with the other two guards in and have AD and AO play down low.

If JC follows George's minutes for Tyler; he is going to have the same results that George did when he took Jim's place. I would like to see Giffey get more minutes myself. I also like Roscoe but his head wasn't in the game yesterday; that first rushed 3 point attempt got him out of the gates in a very poor way. Much better for him to start with an offensive rebound put back or defensive stop to get the team going.

 

[Prezidint]

As promised, I rewatched the S game and here are my notes from TO's first stint on the floor. Not sure what the plus/minus was during this stretch, but no way does he deserve any blame other than going 1 for 4.


18:31 Olander comes in – FT made S.
Olander misses short jumper, gets board, misses again.
S misses 3 (not TO’s guy)
TO gets board off of RS bad miss.
TO pass to Lamb, misses J.
TO’s guy misses shot. Good D By TO.
Shabazz turnover early in shot clock.
S with drive past RS, miss in tight shot, Conn ball.
Olander misses jumper.
16:04
Fair for S misses 3 (no defender)
Bazz bombs quick 3 and misses.
S Fair breakaway fouled – TO not in play.
Nothing above here is TO’s fault at all, other than missed shots.
Any +/- is FTs from plays in which he’s not involved.
At 15:39, score is 4 to 3.
Olander assist to Lamb for 3.
Boatright’s guy abuses him for 2.
Long pass to Drummond is a TurnOver.
Napier’s guy misses 3, board TO.
Bazz tough fadeaweay miss.
Breakaway S is blocked Oriakhi.
S called for foul on Lamb.
Lamb misses 3.
Lamb block on S drive, TO board.
TO hits shot. Tied at 8.
Waiters blows by Lamb for easy lay in.
Tyler assist to Lamb.
TO board on missed S shot.
Boat Turnover.
Waiters on breakaway dunk.
Lamb long bomb 3 miss.
Tyler out.

TO did his part over this stretch, no doubt.

 

[Prezidint]

Next TO stint:


10:11 TO returns.
UConn ball
AO rushed shot at buzzer.
Waiters hits 3 over Bazz.
Bazz misses quick shot from FTL.
Waiters misses over Lamb.
Bazz turnover.
Dunk S on breakaway off Bazz TO.
Bazz Horrid 3pt shot misses.
Christmas with dunk – not clear who TO was guarding.
TO hits free throw jumper.
Block UConn, Christmas loses ball.
Foul S.
Giffey terrible TO.
AO fouls his guy – TO’s guy not in play.
S hits free.
OLANDER OUT

No way did TO cause the net loss while he was in. Not sure what's going on, but Bazz had a really bad stretch when TO was in. TO's only mistake was missing a couple of makable shots.

+/-, in this case at least, does not tell the story at all.

 

[willie99]

I didn't see the game, but in the highlights I watched James Southerland hit big threes and Olander couldn't move quickly enough to contest. Those were critical plays in the game.

great observation, and a very simple one at that. Team defense obviously suffers.

one game can be a fluke, two you begin to wonder, but time after time after time after time cannot be about "bad luck"

anyone making that case is "dismissed"

 

[mauconnfan]

What you are forgetting willie is he gets those shots off with Roscoe too, especially the Roscoe who played vs WVU and Cuse....he shoots 31% - people make shots - he did...happens I give him that shot all day instead of dumping it into Joseph or Fair for a 10 footer........and Tyler rebounded too, those are possessions - Roscoe didn't......
The plus or minus thing didn't work Thursday for sure....made zero sense!!

 

[Dougsts]

It sounds like TO is the only reason we have lost any games this season. Maybe its time he just left the team, I mean if he wasn't there the rest of the guys could have gone undefeated this year

 

[Prezidint]

It sounds like TO is the only reason we have lost any games this season. Maybe its time he just left the team, I mean if he wasn't there the rest of the guys could have gone undefeated this year

That's what the +/- says.

 

[Dougsts]

That's what the +/- says.

Well then point proven

 

[mauconnfan]

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-
Clutch = Less than 5 minutes to go in the 2nd half or OT, neither team ahead by more than 5 points

So really you could be the best player on the court for 10 minutes but your teammates missed every shot and didn't guard anyone but you suffer the "plus minus" syndrome??
Much easier to watch the game and see who's playing good and who isn't!!!

By no means am I saying Tyler was good all year and he needs to get better at some things like moving his feet on D and such, but to start a thread after losing Thursday about Tyler is laughable.....he played well for the most part..... I'm done!

 

[Chief00]

Plus/minus analysis to an individual can appear unfair unless you concede it is a team game; and team chemistry is what it is when a guy is in the game - over the course of a season - and to me that is the Big East schedule - so you exclude the cupcake games that Tyler thrived in until the Fairfield disaster. Tyler's plus/minus is painful. I do think his teammates like the guy and the bounce passes please George but given Alex's poor hands - what is the chance he is going to catch those - w/o a fumble.

 

[Chief00]

OK let's see how Tyler's +/- impacts close key games we have lost this season. If we win or lose by a lot; his plus /minus doesn't impact ultimately winning/losing that game.
Cuse (BE) = Lose by 3pts, Tyler -15 pts
Cuse = Lose by 3 pts, Tyler -6 pts
PC = Lose by 2 pts, Tyler -9 pts
TN - Lose by 3 pts, Tyler -5 pts
ND - Lose by 2pts, Tyler -2 pts

Against the best team we have played (Cuse) in the last 2 games we have been outscored by Cuse by 21 pts when Tyler is in the game; when he is out we have outscored Cuse by 15 points. Combined lost points for the 2 games was 6.

 

[Palatine]

OK let's see how Tyler's +/- impacts close key games we have lost this season. If we win or lose by a lot; his plus /minus doesn't impact ultimately winning/losing that game.
Cuse (BE) = Lose by 3pts, Tyler -15 pts
Cuse = Lose by 3 pts, Tyler -6 pts
PC = Lose by 2 pts, Tyler -9 pts
TN - Lose by 3 pts, Tyler -5 pts
ND - Lose by 2pts, Tyler -2 pts

Tyler probably didn't touch the ball on most of those negatives. This is really stupid.

 

[Chief00]

This isn't what Tyler scored vs. his opponent. It is about how his team did vs. the opposing team when he was in the game. It isn't stupid it is about contributing to winning. Facts are silly things to some folks who argue from emotion not logic.

 

[willie99]

so Tyler was playing great on Thursday, yet he's a minus 15

how can we be at our worst when the guy playing great is on the court? how does that possibly happen?

defense gets worse, on offense they leave Tyler wide open and play 5 on 4 because he misses bunnies. As anyone ever seen a big man given less respect 10 feet from the hoop? ever?

 

[Chief00]

Not to pile on too much because I think Tyler is a good kid - but even last year in the 11 post season games the team had a positive +/- only 3 times during Tyler's minutes. It was a trend last year that was overcome by the greatness of Kemba Walker. This year we don't have that safety net. I know George who does the scouting reports, has a certain comfort level for Tyler. Let's face it Roscoe can play great....but watch him on an out of bounds play - he has no clue where he is suppose to be.....so that probably frustrates George. But winning is winning, it is a losing argument arguing with winning!