Calling BS on Bilas "ACC best collection of coaches ever"

[pj]

Sad that people can't look at things objectively. JC was clearly the 2nd best coach of his era, and a top 4 or 5 coach all time. Not sure why that isn't good enough for people like you.


Reciting and romanticizing JC's story doesn't change that.

If K is better than JC, it's at recruiting. He's gotten far more McD's AAs to Duke than JC could bring to UConn.

But the rest of a college coach's responsibilities? I'd take JC over K any day.

 

[pj]

There are also 67% more teams in the ACC now than there were during the Big East glory days.

I think this was the ENTIRE coaching roster for the 1987 Big East season:

Jim Calhoun (UConn)
Lou Carneseca (St Johns)
Jim Beheim (Syracuse)
John Thompson (Georgetown)
Rollie Mossimino (Villanova)
Rick Pitino (Providence)
PJ Carlisimo (Seton Hall)
Jim O'Brien (BCU)
Paul Evans (Pitt)

When your second worst coach is Jim O'Brien (who went to the Final Four as a coach), your coaching talent is ridiculous.

If you just compare the top couple of the old Big East to the top couple of the current ACC--there is a basis for comparison. But if you take the entire coaching roster of a conference, no one will ever rival what the Big East had in the glory days. Just look at that list. It is absolutely ridiculous!

What, you wouldn't hire Mark Gottfried? What about Jim Christian? Danny Manning?

 

[UConnSwag11]

1/2-3/4 of the acc are old big east teams

 

[NielsisGood]

If K is better than JC, it's at recruiting. He's gotten far more McD's AAs to Duke than JC could bring to UConn.

But the rest of a college coach's responsibilities? I'd take JC over K any day.

I'd say Coach K is an undeniably better coach with half court offense. JC is probably the best ever at instilling toughness and making kids into men. Still, gotta compare their accomplishments, at the end of the day Coach K beats JC pretty much across the board.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I'd say Coach K is an undeniably better coach with half court offense.

This strikes me as odd. Duke runs about the simplest half-court offense in college basketball. It's a basic 3 out / 2 in setup that you could probably install with an eighth grade team in an hour or so. He just has really good players executing it. Calhoun's "struggles" with half court offense always seemed overblown to me. His offense was predicated on playmakers. It looked pretty damn good when he had them.

K is the coach of that generation, though. Calhoun will tell you as much, right Chief?

 

[pj]

I'd say Coach K is an undeniably better coach with half court offense. JC is probably the best ever at instilling toughness and making kids into men. Still, gotta compare their accomplishments, at the end of the day Coach K beats JC pretty much across the board.

JC spent less practice time on offense than K, preferring to focus on defense, rebounding, and toughness-inducing drills. But JC's methods worked better than K's, he got more results with less talent. 77-74, for example. I wouldn't say he was an inferior offensive coach to K.

 

[tzznandrew]

This strikes me as odd. Duke runs about the simplest half-court offense in college basketball. It's a basic 3 out / 2 in setup that you could probably install with an eighth grade team in an hour or so. He just has really good players executing it. Calhoun's "struggles" with half court offense always seemed overblown to me. His offense was predicated on playmakers. It looked pretty damn good when he had them.

It's true. I coach JV girls basketball...we pretty much run a Duke half-court offense.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

If K is better than JC, it's at recruiting. He's gotten far more McD's AAs to Duke than JC could bring to UConn.

But the rest of a college coach's responsibilities? I'd take JC over K any day.

Never said that there was a massive divide between K and JC, just that objectively speaking, it'd be generous to say JC=K.

Never said you did. What is your criteria for ranking? Considering their relative starting points and final results. Heck, didn't JC get Northeastern to the tourney once?

 

[BUConn10]

The ACC essentially dismantled the Big East, the previous concensus "best basketball conference" and anointed itself the best college basketball conference in America. So infuriating how businessmen in suits and ties are the ones actually competing more than the schools' athletes.

 

[NielsisGood]

This strikes me as odd. Duke runs about the simplest half-court offense in college basketball. It's a basic 3 out / 2 in setup that you could probably install with an eighth grade team in an hour or so. He just has really good players executing it. Calhoun's "struggles" with half court offense always seemed overblown to me. His offense was predicated on playmakers. It looked pretty damn good when he had them.

K is the coach of that generation, though. Calhoun will tell you as much, right Chief?

Doesn't matter how exotic the schemes are if the execution is on point. K offenses pretty much always have great ball movement and a ton of activity, JC offenses often did not.

JC spent less practice time on offense than K, preferring to focus on defense, rebounding, and toughness-inducing drills. But JC's methods worked better than K's, he got more results with less talent. 77-74, for example. I wouldn't say he was an inferior offensive coach to K.

How did JC's methods work better?

Never said you did. What is your criteria for ranking? Considering their relative starting points and final results. Heck, didn't JC get Northeastern to the tourney once?

My criteria is the same criteria we all use to determine that JC is better than Boeheim, Pitino, Izzo, etc. Tournament and regular season success.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Doesn't matter how exotic the schemes are if the execution is on point. K offenses pretty much always have great ball movement and a ton of activity, JC offenses often did not.

Yeah, I just don't agree with this, especially the "ton of activity" stuff. The first option for Duke is literally "throw it in to our incredibly talented 5 and let him make a move." Option two is "hit our future lottery pick 4 man in the high post and let him make a move." K gives his guys almost unlimited freedom and flexibility. When you combine that with more talent than just about anybody else, you can do some things.

 

[lavuuk153]

I agree that Calhoun accomplished the greatest program building job of all time, and I'm not sure Coach K would've accomplished the same at UConn.

But K also has 5 National Championships and 12 Final Fours in an era that's far more competitive than the one Wooden coached in. I think Calhoun's on the college coach Mount Rushmore, but with 3 NCs and 4 it's tough to argue he's better than K all time.

K definitely had a better career by all metrics that matter. That doesn't automatically make him a better coach though. No one has more WS titles than Yogi Berra. That doesn't mean he's the best player, catcher, or even Yankee of all time.

 

[NielsisGood]

Yeah, I just don't agree with this, especially the "ton of activity" stuff. The first option for Duke is literally "throw it in to our incredibly talented 5 and let him make a move." Option two is "hit our future lottery pick 4 man in the high post and let him make a move." K gives his guys almost unlimited freedom and flexibility. When you combine that with more talent than just about anybody else, you can do some things.

You don't have to agree with what I said, you also don't have to be right, I guess. Calipari has just as much talent and his "offense" looks like a mediocre AND1 mixtape.

 

[NielsisGood]

K definitely had a better career by all metrics that matter. That doesn't automatically make him a better coach though. No one has more WS titles than Yogi Berra. That doesn't mean he's the best player, catcher, or even Yankee of all time.

That's because there's other metrics with which to compare baseball players. Coach K has the advantage in pretty much any quantifiable metric for success that we can measure.

 

[Walker11]

Kind of a tangent but I am curious.

Such a huge portion of college coaching success is predicated on recruiting 5 * and motivating players. Which "elite" coaches are actually known for running beautiful offenses and being genius tacticians? I certainly don't think Bill Self, Calipari, Roy Williams or especially Jim Boeheim are great basketball minds. As said, K may not be fancy with his offense but Duke is always are efficient. Is Pitino the best "pure" coach in terms of tactics who is still coaching? He runs out some hideous offensive teams from year to year but I always have respected his ability to maximize his talent and game planning and adjustments.

 

[champs99and04]

Comparing Big East circa 2011 to the current ACC is a more fair comparison, since their are roughly an equal amount of teams (the Big East having one more). Pitino, Boeheim, Buzz, and Brey are cross-outs. That leaves you, in descending order of quality, with:

Calhoun/K - Not going to re-hash the debate, but both are undeniably great

Wright/Roy - This is tricky. Roy is obviously more accomplished, but I give the nod to Wright

Huggins/Bennett - Another tough one. I'll go Huggins based on longevity

Thompson/Larranaga - Gotta go Laranega

Cronin/Hamilton - This seems like a draw

Dixon/Stallings - Pretty convincingly Dixon

Lavin/Pastner - Slight edge to Pastner

Beyond that, there isn't much proven in either league. It seems like a toss-up overall.

 

[boog204]

This strikes me as odd. Duke runs about the simplest half-court offense in college basketball. It's a basic 3 out / 2 in setup that you could probably install with an eighth grade team in an hour or so. He just has really good players executing it. Calhoun's "struggles" with half court offense always seemed overblown to me. His offense was predicated on playmakers. It looked pretty damn good when he had them.
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K is the coach of that generation, though. Calhoun will tell you as much, right Chief?

I think the difference is that JC's teams, at least in the 90-98 had the reputation of being very defensible in the half court. The basic mantra was take away our transition game and secondary break and make us play half court offense and we were beatable. See 94, 96, and 98 as prime examples of this. Coach K may always have the players, but offensively they are super efficient and always effective. There's some beauty in the simplicity of the sets.

 

[champs99and04]

Kind of a tangent but I am curious.

Such a huge portion of college coaching success is predicated on recruiting 5 * and motivating players. Which "elite" coaches are actually known for running beautiful offenses and being genius tacticians? I certainly don't think Bill Self, Calipari, Roy Williams or especially Jim Boeheim are great basketball minds. As said, K may not be fancy with his offense but Duke is always are efficient. Is Pitino the best "pure" coach in terms of tactics who is still coaching? He runs out some hideous offensive teams from year to year but I always have respected his ability to maximize his talent and game planning and adjustments.

Pitino is the best x's and o's guy in the game, IMO. But it isn't like he's had great offenses, as you've said.

Roy and Self are both great minds.

 

[lavuuk153]

That's because there's other metrics with which to compare baseball players. Coach K has the advantage in pretty much any quantifiable metric for success that we can measure.

Sure I agree baseball has more metrics. I admit the comparison isn't totally valid, just pointing out that having more wins or titles doesn't automatically mean that coach is better. If K took the UConn job in 1980 instead of Duke, do you think his numbers are roughly the same, better, or worse? If you think worse, then that would mean that Calhoun had a harder road than K and that should be taken into account, not just the raw numbers.

 

[Walker11]

Comparing Big East circa 2011 to the current ACC is a more fair comparison, since their are roughly an equal amount of teams (the Big East having one more). Pitino, Boeheim, Buzz, and Brey are cross-outs. That leaves you, in descending order of quality, with:

Calhoun/K - Not going to re-hash the debate, but both are undeniably great

Wright/Roy - This is tricky. Roy is obviously more accomplished, but I give the nod to Wright

Huggins/Bennett - Another tough one. I'll go Huggins based on longevity

Thompson/Larranaga - Gotta go Laranega

Cronin/Hamilton - This seems like a draw

Dixon/Stallings - Pretty convincingly Dixon

Lavin/Pastner - Slight edge to Pastner

Beyond that, there isn't much proven in either league. It seems like a toss-up overall.

I think Bennett is a fantastic coach and is better than Huggy Bear, and you gotta find space for Brey who is a very good coach. As is Buzz. Otherwise, I pretty much agree. I don't think very highly of Roy, accomplishment be damned.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Bilas has quickly faded as one of the best analysts out there, though.

Whys that? Because hes no longer on the uconn bandwagon? Seemed everyone here loved him and thought he was the only credible guy at BSPN a few years ago.

 

[Walker11]

Pitino is the best x's and o's guy in the game, IMO. But it isn't like he's had great offenses, as you've said.

Roy and Self are both great minds.

Self is definitely a great coach but I don't think of him as a great tactician. I am probably less familiar with him than the rest, perhaps I am wrong. I don't really know much about his defensive schemes but his high low offense is pretty basic. Basic is good though when you have the talent, similar to K. Roy does well when he has overwhelming talent and does mediocre when he has normal talent, IMO.

 

[champs99and04]

I think Bennett is a fantastic coach and is better than Huggy Bear, and you gotta find space for Brey who is a very good coach. As is Buzz. Otherwise, I pretty much agree. I don't think very highly of Roy, accomplishment be damned.

Brey and Buzz I put in the cross-out sections since there was overlap between there time in the Big East and ACC.

I'm about as big a Bennett fan as you'll find, but it's tough to know what to do with him when he's only been at it a few years. Huggins has had some loaded teams at Cincinnati and WVU and the job he has done at WVU the last couple years has been incredible.

 

[Walker11]

Whys that? Because hes no longer on the uconn bandwagon? Seemed everyone here loved him and thought he was the only credible guy at BSPN a few years ago.

He doesn't seem to be as well prepared as he used to be. I think a lot of people are getting sick of his ever increasing ego so that could be clouding our collective judgement.

 

[jleves]

That's because there's other metrics with which to compare baseball players. Coach K has the advantage in pretty much any quantifiable metric for success that we can measure.

Based on your nick and responses, I have to imagine you are the same person as Pcketknfniels. Have you figured out how the lottery works yet?